72 réponses à ce sujet

[LadyBri]

So, I was just finishing Varric's Act II quest where we see Bartrand has turned into a raving lunatic thanks to the lyrium idol.  Then I recalled how the Act III quest ends with Varric touching a piece of the idol and starting to go a little crazy until Hawke possibly intervenes and lets Sandal "dispose" of it.  

Meanwhile, Meredith has had the idol for 3 years or so and while she is slowly going insane, it is a relatively lengthy process in comparison.   Also, Hawke and Sandal seem to have no adverse reaction to touching the piece of the idol, nor do any other party members.

Am I the only person who thinks something doesn't add up here?  Aren't dwarves supposed to have some sort of magic immunity because of exposure to lyrium or something.  Granted, the idol is some type of evil which corrupts anyone over time, but it seems to hit our two dwarves much harder than Meredith with no one else being immediately influenced by the idol despite some brief proximity.  So why is it that dwarves are so much more affected by the idol?  Makes me wonder more about the origins of the idol and what kind of evil surrounds it.

[PidgeonMadness]

This idol is most likely made by some ancient dwarves som Maker knows what "Taint" it contains !

Modifié par PidgeonMadness, 30 mars 2011 - 07:33 .

[supakillaii]

Hawke's got plot armor, Sandal's special and Meredith's strong.

[PidgeonMadness]

Meredith does not need an idol to be crazy, she looks crazy either way

[lltoon]

the idol is made out of pure plot device... uhh i mean lyrium!

[Paraxial]

I was disappointed that we didn't get to learn more about it.

[Foolsfolly]

lltoon wrote...

the idol is made out of pure plot device... uhh i mean lyrium!

And it causes forced plots to happen.... uhh I mean magic.

EVIL MAGIC! 

[Teknor]

Bartrand was subjected to idol during 3 years he went crazy.
Meredith was subjected to idol during 3 years she went crazy.
Hawke and Sandal's exposure are very limited compared to two above so they didn't went crazy.
About Varric i don't know. Seems like idol is sentient and can adjust it's effects.

[Foolsfolly]

Teknor wrote...

Bartrand was subjected to idol during 3 years he went crazy.
Meredith was subjected to idol during 3 years she went crazy.
Hawke and Sandal's exposure are very limited compared to two above so they didn't went crazy.
About Varric i don't know. Seems like idol is sentient and can adjust it's effects.

As the Church Lady once said, "How convenient."

[TheBlackBaron]

Judging from dialog Bartrand was always a greedy SOB, so him trapping the party doesn't really seem like the work of the idol so much as just him being a douche. The whole going crazy thing came later. Meredith doesn't require an explanation.

Hawke and Sandal were only very briefly in contact with it, so they're fine.

Varric is the outlier here. Possibly, given all that he's had to deal with since Bartrand disappeared with the idol, he's got stronger emotions about it and Bartrand that boiled over after coming into contact with it again, or maybe he's just naturally more attune to the lyrium song, which is convenient but hardly a mindblowing proposition.

lltoon wrote...

the idol is made out of pure plot device... uhh i mean lyrium!

This is by far the best explanation, however.

[Crocodiles]

How did that small Idol produce huge sword, and still have a chunk left over? Does Meredith have magic powers, cos I thought templars used lyrium to negate the flow of magic, and what she pulled off in the fight seems a lot like magic to me.

[Foolsfolly]

Crocodiles...

*sighs*

It's the Idol. How dare you question how it works or why it works. It's...it's...it's the Idol, man. It does things...of plot importance!

[nopho]

you know, i never read the lord of the rings and so i wondered what "the one ring" does except to make you go invisible to make everyone want it.

someone explained to me, that it enstrongers your already strong sides (like make a king a better leader or so) i could imagine that the idol actually does the same with peoples weak sides, a money greedy dwarf becomes so money greedy that he is willing to sacrifice his own brother, a mage hater who suspects blood mages everywhere begins to openly treat them like that.

why does it have a bigger influence on dwarfes?
i got 2 theories, first of, in bartrands mansion when fighting the "shard" of the idol we fight a spectral golem. as we know from DA:O those were dwarfen "units" thus makeing the idol connected to the dwarfen, probably it sends it influence on the same "brain wave level" as dwarfes have and needed time to adjust to human.

second, as it sings to people and i think it tells them things (really don't want to play DA2 again to check that) it might have a mind of it's own and thus deciding how much to influence people at once. probably also seeing that big-M was at her core a good person and knowing the risk of trying too much too early.


and to not be a combo breaker for my disappointed posts here, yes i disliked the obvious "buy DLC" ending too

[wikkedjoker]

Cant you let Verric keep it? If you can nothing seems to happen.

[Noatz]

Its not properly explained unfortunately. We can assume it affects dwarves more strongly than humans, and possibly in a different way as well. It obviously affected Meredith, but she wasn't irrationally, raving crazy (except at the very end with the demon eyes and all).

[Foolsfolly]

But it had no affect on Bodahn and Sandal. It nearly immediately affected Bartrund and it was clearly calling for Varric.

[Ealos]

Not sure if Sandal's immunity matters, I suspect that if he'd been in the Chantry during Anders' party trick he'd have wandered out just fine... Ignoring the plot device argument, which is pretty good, here's an attempt:

No particular "ooh, shiny" moment when it's discovered: I don't think it was the reason for Bartrand's betrayal personally.
Over time, Bartrand becomes gradually affected by it, but is happy to sell it. Only then does his "withdrawal" from the idol's effects drive him insane.
The small piece of idol, divorced from the whole, becomes more unstable, causing the hauntings and random Golem appearances, and calling to Varric due to his relation to the previous owner. Once resisted, it loses some of its power, thus not doing anything too spooky until Enchantment boy disarms it.
Meredith is gradually changed, and when she finally snaps is able to channel the power of the lyrium which has worked into her soul.

So yeah... plot device.

Modifié par Ealos, 30 mars 2011 - 10:47 .

[Rifneno]

Good time to voice a theory I've been mulling over for a bit.  First, some facts that lead me to this conclusion.

1.  Lyrium sings.  Dwarves and spirits at the least can hear it.
2.  The Mother rants about "the song" and how The Architect is such a bad bad man because his giving her sentience took away her ability to hear the song.
3.  Darkspawn tunnel through the earth looking for "Old Gods" that the Maker imprisoned there.
4.  Bartrand talks about the lyrium idol's song (not totally surprising since all lyrium sings) and that it was telling him to worship it.
5.  The hunger demon in the Primordial Thaig, if a demon is to be believed, claims that the rock wraiths there are dwarven spirits who are eating lyrium.
6.  Upon battling the rock wraiths, particularly ones called "Profane," you gain a codex entry.  It talks of a cryptic scrawling found in the Deep Roads in which an entity refering to itself "profane" says it "feasted upon the gods" in an act of desperation.

I don't know how exactly, but I think it's a reasonably safe assumption that lyrium is somehow divine.  I don't know which pantheon (the old elven gods, the Tevinter dragon gods, or even a completely forgotten set) but there's too much connecting lyrium with disembodied singing and deities.

On an unrelated note, something I've always wondered.  If lyrium is so dangerous to non-dwarves, how come we don't use it to make poison? 

[supakillaii]

2. THe Song that Mother raves on about is the Old Gods' summoning

[Revakeane]

Maybe the idol is an idol of the Old Gods? The dwarves in Primeval Thaig may have worshiped them before the whole Stone religion took shape.

[Rifneno]

supakillaii wrote...

2. THe Song that Mother raves on about is the Old Gods' summoning

That's my point.  It's got to be connected somehow.

[Asdara]

Rifneno wrote...

Good time to voice a theory I've been mulling over for a bit.  First, some facts that lead me to this conclusion.

1.  Lyrium sings.  Dwarves and spirits at the least can hear it.
2.  The Mother rants about "the song" and how The Architect is such a bad bad man because his giving her sentience took away her ability to hear the song.
3.  Darkspawn tunnel through the earth looking for "Old Gods" that the Maker imprisoned there.
4.  Bartrand talks about the lyrium idol's song (not totally surprising since all lyrium sings) and that it was telling him to worship it.
5.  The hunger demon in the Primordial Thaig, if a demon is to be believed, claims that the rock wraiths there are dwarven spirits who are eating lyrium.
6.  Upon battling the rock wraiths, particularly ones called "Profane," you gain a codex entry.  It talks of a cryptic scrawling found in the Deep Roads in which an entity refering to itself "profane" says it "feasted upon the gods" in an act of desperation.

I don't know how exactly, but I think it's a reasonably safe assumption that lyrium is somehow divine.  I don't know which pantheon (the old elven gods, the Tevinter dragon gods, or even a completely forgotten set) but there's too much connecting lyrium with disembodied singing and deities.

On an unrelated note, something I've always wondered.  If lyrium is so dangerous to non-dwarves, how come we don't use it to make poison? 

I can see some of this, but there's got to be a uniting concept that we haven't been made aware of yet that ties them all together more than simple association with "song" for this to work in a future game.  

Merrill tells you more about the Dalish pantheon that we got before, particularly how the Forgotten Ones got sealed into the Abyss by the Trickster and the notes for Enigma of Kirkwall also mention something along those lines - that the veil in Kirkwall was thinned in an attempt to contact or revive something Other.  

Is it any wonder the religion that aligns itself with the Maker is all up in arms over it?  The Old Tevinter gods were supposedly where they learned a lot of their magic from too, no?

[Ealos]

The song idea sounds Old God, but would the Thaig not be covered in Darkspawn if it was specifically Old God? Meredith draws her sword and hundreds of 'spawn show up at the gates.

Actually, I'm very glad that didn't happen.... The general divine idea sounds promising, especially with the fade thinning and Profane codices.

[Poubo]

*spoilers for books*

i can see how the old gods and the primeval thaig are linked, the architects base of operations was in some of the original dwarven thaigs, with books referencing magic (i believe) and lyrium use etc.

theres a lot of Dwarven history that is not really gone in to, such as their technological decline. it all seems to be linked.

Also, wasn't it the Dwarves who originally locked the old gods "bodies" away?