223 réponses à ce sujet

[Romantiq]

Maverick827 wrote...

Archereon wrote...

Yahtzee
bashed DA:O for pretty much the whole reivew before admiting that,
despite all its flaws, it was a great game.  He did that with Mass
Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2, but not with Dragon Age 2...COINCIDENCE!?

Not really.  DA2 excelled at all of the aspects of games which he doesn't really care about.

Expand on that , would you kindly?

Modifié par Romantiq, 30 mars 2011 - 08:56 .

[Galad22]

Maverick827 wrote...
Not really.  DA2 excelled at all of the aspects of games which he doesn't really care about.

Yes, like Romantiq I am interested, in what aspects DA2 excelled exactly? Because I seem to have missed those aspects.

[Ixalmaris]

Maverick827 wrote...

Archereon wrote...

Yahtzee bashed DA:O for pretty much the whole reivew before admiting that, despite all its flaws, it was a great game.  He did that with Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2, but not with Dragon Age 2...COINCIDENCE!?

Not really.  DA2 excelled at all of the aspects of games which he doesn't really care about.

Lol.
Do you know what he cares about? Good games. He doesn't seem to have any preference in genres, except that he does not like RPGs much.
And yet he still liked DA:O and not DA2.

Modifié par Ixalmaris, 30 mars 2011 - 09:02 .

[MerinTB]

*approves of this episode of Zero Punctuation*

I almost always find them funny, but only occasionally do I agree with them. He's a bit harsher than I would be about this game but, hey, that's his style.

[DragonRageGT]

While I really enjoy his humor, I think this is his first review I've seen where he's serious about what he is talking about! And with good reason too!

[Otterwarden]

"There's also been a bit of tweaking in the combat...and when I say 'tweeking' I mean in the crystal meth sense..."

That line was priceless and describes the combat to a tee!

[Eclipse_9990]

Otterwarden wrote...

"There's also been a bit of tweaking in the combat...and when I say 'tweeking' I mean in the crystal meth sense..."

That line was priceless and describes the combat to a tee!

For me it was when he made that froid reference to Hawke mom. When I remember some of the threads in the past about her I have to say he was just spot on with that. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 30 mars 2011 - 09:47 .

[Maverick827]

Romantiq wrote...

Expand on that , would you kindly?

The story, mostly. He has never show interest in actually creating and developing a well-rounded character in a fictional world. His RPG characters are always two-dimensional: the "badass" character, the "funny" character, and now apparently the "gay" character.

He creates his characters like he's choosing which piece to use in a game of Monopoly: sure, there might be a part of him which identifies with it, but mostly it's just an avatar. I don't mind this much because as I have said he critiques gameplay well, not so much storylines.

I've also never taken Yahtzee for a "min/maxxer," so DA2's superior talent system (though there could still be much work done) was likely lost on him as well.

An easy observation to anyone who has played both Origins and DA2 extensively is that, while many talents and spells in Origins were broken by design (e.g. made useless by game mechanics: Archery, Summoning, most of Spirit, Shapeshifter, etc.) let alone by bugs (Shattering, Momentum, Blood Control, etc.), DA2 offers a much more balanced selection in both regards. I haven't encountered a build which is as utterly worthless as some in Origins though, at the same time, builds are a bit more restricted this time around - I do lament the loss of my strength-based Rogue.

I've always felt like Yahtzee makes RPGs work too hard to make him like them, more so than he does other genres. He'll criticize a shooter for being bland but still admit that blowing people up is fun, but he'll criticize an RPG for being boring and unwieldy but say nothing of the narrative structure or world building techniques which were used. But, again, I don't expect that from Yahtzee any more than I expect myself praising Just Cause 2.

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

Aurgelmir wrote...

Very funny.

"Take it up the arse like a champ"

Shows how un-hip I am.  I didn't even know they had championships for that sort of thing.  Don't even want to think about what the tournament must look like.

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

Maverick827 wrote...

An easy observation to anyone who has played both Origins and DA2 extensively is that, while many talents and spells in Origins were broken by design (e.g. made useless by game mechanics: Archery, Summoning, most of Spirit, Shapeshifter, etc.) let alone by bugs (Shattering, Momentum, Blood Control, etc.), DA2 offers a much more balanced selection in both regards. I haven't encountered a build which is as utterly worthless as some in Origins though, at the same time, builds are a bit more restricted this time around - I do lament the loss of my strength-based Rogue.

I'm glad to see someone else make this point.  There have been serious currents of cohesive design and streamlining of rules (or "dumbing down", since we're on the Bioware forums) in tabletop games for years now.  A lot of it comes down to trying to eliminate "trap" builds that hamstring a character with abilities that sound cool until you try to apply them in-game.

This is particularly crucial in a computer game, where the machine can't ad-lib or make a corrective house rule.

[randName]

Maverick827 wrote...

Romantiq wrote...

Expand on that , would you kindly?

The story, mostly. He has never show interest in actually creating and developing a well-rounded character in a fictional world. His RPG characters are always two-dimensional: the "badass" character, the "funny" character, and now apparently the "gay" character.

He creates his characters like he's choosing which piece to use in a game of Monopoly: sure, there might be a part of him which identifies with it, but mostly it's just an avatar. I don't mind this much because as I have said he critiques gameplay well, not so much storylines.

I've also never taken Yahtzee for a "min/maxxer," so DA2's superior talent system (though there could still be much work done) was likely lost on him as well.

An easy observation to anyone who has played both Origins and DA2 extensively is that, while many talents and spells in Origins were broken by design (e.g. made useless by game mechanics: Archery, Summoning, most of Spirit, Shapeshifter, etc.) let alone by bugs (Shattering, Momentum, Blood Control, etc.), DA2 offers a much more balanced selection in both regards. I haven't encountered a build which is as utterly worthless as some in Origins though, at the same time, builds are a bit more restricted this time around - I do lament the loss of my strength-based Rogue.

I've always felt like Yahtzee makes RPGs work too hard to make him like them, more so than he does other genres. He'll criticize a shooter for being bland but still admit that blowing people up is fun, but he'll criticize an RPG for being boring and unwieldy but say nothing of the narrative structure or world building techniques which were used. But, again, I don't expect that from Yahtzee any more than I expect myself praising Just Cause 2.

Given that the story is horrible in DA2 I dunno. It's probably the only BW story I found to be badly written, and sure many of the side quests are nice, but the main-story? it's utterly shallow and pointless, since any philosophical or emotional interest is completely ripped out by the spine, when they towards the end fail to tie it together, as the mages personal strife with daemons turns out into a farce and all succumb to bloodmagic and abominations, and they have twin-towers of light pulse out of the chantry etc. it's tasteless and weak.

& given that the choices you have in DA2 are mostly non-choices, as RPGCodex pointed out, you really don't build much character in DA2.

& Yahtzee is normally positive to BioWare games, as in ME1&2 and DA:O ~ can't remember if he reviewed the older ones. He mostly disliked realism and any multi-player games (so MMO-RPGs are low on his list).


I agree that the abilities are vastly improved, or at least how you get them; and its one of the main reasons the combat is better in DA2, but then that's also one of few direct improvements I can find in the game (outside better textures, meshes and general craft of the assets used).


There was promise to the story, and I prefer the basic idea over the overdone saving the world from darkness, á DA:O ~ but they probably did the worst adaptation of the mage and templar conflict I could ever imagine.

Modifié par randName, 30 mars 2011 - 10:09 .

[addiction21]

RageGT wrote...

While I really enjoy his humor, I think this is his first review I've seen where he's serious about what he is talking about! And with good reason too!

Ya... all of a sudden hes serious. /Sarcasim


I agree with him but I wont suddenly put this one single review on a pedestal above the others because I agree with it. Neither should you.

[Maverick827]

randName wrote...

Given that the story is horrible in DA2 I dunno.

Expand on that, would you kindly?

[Merced652]

This review had to sting my bro bros at Bioware.

This review was amazing.

[Bryy_Miller]

addiction21 wrote...

RageGT wrote...

While I really enjoy his humor, I think this is his first review I've seen where he's serious about what he is talking about! And with good reason too!

Ya... all of a sudden hes serious. /Sarcasim

Yeah, even though I liked this rant, it did seem a bit more serious than his others. 

[Gatt9]

Tantum Dic Verbo wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

An easy observation to anyone who has played both Origins and DA2 extensively is that, while many talents and spells in Origins were broken by design (e.g. made useless by game mechanics: Archery, Summoning, most of Spirit, Shapeshifter, etc.) let alone by bugs (Shattering, Momentum, Blood Control, etc.), DA2 offers a much more balanced selection in both regards. I haven't encountered a build which is as utterly worthless as some in Origins though, at the same time, builds are a bit more restricted this time around - I do lament the loss of my strength-based Rogue.

I'm glad to see someone else make this point.  There have been serious currents of cohesive design and streamlining of rules (or "dumbing down", since we're on the Bioware forums) in tabletop games for years now.  A lot of it comes down to trying to eliminate "trap" builds that hamstring a character with abilities that sound cool until you try to apply them in-game.

This is particularly crucial in a computer game, where the machine can't ad-lib or make a corrective house rule.

With computer games that's more a function of the poor attention to QA today than a failing of design.  I'm sure someone in QA said "Hey,  this blows" with features that make it into final games,  and companies just blow it out the door anyways to meet some milestone rather than deal with it.

This,  I personally blame on the Publisher/Developer relationship,  as the Publisher's aren't all that concerned with quality as much as making sure it hits the shelves by some specific date,  usually Christmas.

This is why Blizzard is where they are today,  because if someone holds up the "This blows" flag,  they deal with it and move the release date backwards if they have to.  Go look at the Diablo 3 forums,  that game has had several things changed because the original idea sucked in practice.

It will be a very good day when Digital Distribution kills Publishers and puts the money back in the pockets of the Devs.  That one event will reshape how games are made,  and their quality,  more than anything else in 30 years.

Which is why I try and support Steam as much as possible.

[Technocactus]

Galad22 wrote...

scyphozoa wrote...

well, we know the games he loves. Half-Life and Prince of Persia Sands of Time. He loves both of those games and refers to them a lot. Still, even games he openly supports and likes get bashed. There is no ZP episode that doesn't offer at least 3 straight minutes of bashing. 

There is actually one at least. Psychonauts.

It's worth noting that the response to his Psychonaut's video wasn't good, due to people not liking it when he's positive, as it's not so funny. As such, he won't make another video like it. He'll get cross no matter what.



The real worrying thing with this review for Bioware, as far as I can see it, is just how much ammuntion he finds. If Dragon Age Origins had had the problem with copy-paste dungeons, you can pretty much guarentee he'd have banged on about it for quite some time. But with the Dragon Age II review, he barely touches on it, as he finds enough flaws that he can gloss over as gaping a flaw as that in a couple of sentences. I mean, when reviewing Batman: Arkham Asylum, Yahtzee was so short of things to criticise he moved onto criticising the box art. He'll whinge about anything, but he was able to raise a lot of relevant concerns, and when the guy who wants to be angry no matter what is the guy hailed as providing an accurate review, you know your game has problems.

Modifié par Technocactus, 30 mars 2011 - 10:20 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Gatt9 wrote...
Which is why I try and support Steam as much as possible.

Steam/Valve is just as bad when it comes to money. Take TF2 for example: an in-game store, extra DLC for EVERY game that comes out on Steam. Yes, sure, they have sales all the time, but those $2 games you buy because they are $2 add up.

Now, Steam is a great service, but implying that it it somehow has a different business plan than EA or Activision (or even Blizzard) is faulty.

[cachx]

So we're now taking Zero Punctuation for something other than just comedy?
Okay, whatever helps you folks sleep at night.

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

Gatt9 wrote...

Tantum Dic Verbo wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

An easy observation to anyone who has played both Origins and DA2 extensively is that, while many talents and spells in Origins were broken by design (e.g. made useless by game mechanics: Archery, Summoning, most of Spirit, Shapeshifter, etc.) let alone by bugs (Shattering, Momentum, Blood Control, etc.), DA2 offers a much more balanced selection in both regards. I haven't encountered a build which is as utterly worthless as some in Origins though, at the same time, builds are a bit more restricted this time around - I do lament the loss of my strength-based Rogue.

I'm glad to see someone else make this point.  There have been serious currents of cohesive design and streamlining of rules (or "dumbing down", since we're on the Bioware forums) in tabletop games for years now.  A lot of it comes down to trying to eliminate "trap" builds that hamstring a character with abilities that sound cool until you try to apply them in-game.

This is particularly crucial in a computer game, where the machine can't ad-lib or make a corrective house rule.

With computer games that's more a function of the poor attention to QA today than a failing of design.  I'm sure someone in QA said "Hey,  this blows" with features that make it into final games,  and companies just blow it out the door anyways to meet some milestone rather than deal with it.

I was talking about system design itself more than QA.  An "Acrobatics" skill, for example may seem like a cool choice for a character, and one worthy of customization resources.  Unless, however, the game includes a way to use it effectively, it's was a trap! /Admiral Ackbar

Fallout 1 & 2 are good examples of this.  To this day, I'm still not sure if the Sneak skill actually did anything. 

Anyway, my point is that much of this "dumbing down" is pretty much the state of the art in RPG design.  It doesn't excuse shoddy workmanship, of course.  It just means that games are less likely to give you 2000 points to spend on your abilities when they can give you 20 and achieve the same result overall.  It also means that there will often be fewer different skills to choose from, since each skill requires a lot more work to make them useful (work that often wasn't done in previous games, anyway).

Mind you, I'm not supporting or condeming any particular choice in DA2.  I'm just talking general design theory.  And I agree completely that rushing a game is the surest way to turn it into mulch.

[Ajwol Semreth]

Yatzhee did not like DA2? Well, isn't that a big surprise... Occassional references to Bioware being good at telling a story excepted, I do not think Yatzhee has ever liked a Bioware game, and very rarely has anything good to say about them.

I'd liked to see a Zero Punctuation review of Baldur's Gate 2 actually. I wonder what he'd say about that.

[Killer3000ad]

Yahtzee delivers as always. I sure hope the level designer takes note of Yahtzee's comments on enemies respawning right on top of you and dump the silly waves.

[Xewaka]

Bryy_Miller wrote...
Steam/Valve is just as bad when it comes to money. Take TF2 for example: an in-game store, extra DLC for EVERY game that comes out on Steam. Yes, sure, they have sales all the time, but those $2 games you buy because they are $2 add up.
Now, Steam is a great service, but implying that it it somehow has a different business plan than EA or Activision (or even Blizzard) is faulty.

If anything, their business plan is better, because they know how to exploit "spur-of-the-moment" buyers. They probably get more benefit from the sales than from regular product.

[Korusus]

Never heard of this guy, but it was an excellent review. Spot on. Makes The Escapist look even more ridiculous for their 5/5.

[Tommy6860]

vdeity wrote...

I really like Yahtzee Croshaw's reviews.  I often agree with 'em and even use 'em as a guide to what games I wanna buy sometimes (when I haven't already pre-ordered one) 

http://www.escapistm...8-Dragon-Age-II

Funny as always and near spot on. I LOL for sure.