151 réponses à ce sujet

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Eromenos wrote...

rvgifford wrote...

Do it if it makes sense within the story, don't force it to appease or
for the sake of 'inclusiveness'. ME3 is the finale of an amazing
trilogy. Either you've loved it up until this point or you haven't and
throwing in an emphasis on alternate sexuality without substantial and
well though out story reasoning just seems a little meh.

But if
it goes in, for the love of all that is organic don't go overboard with
it and please avoid the bad stereotypes and cliches.

What I'm interpreting is...it's all right to "forcibly exclude."

Why? Why is it that making greater efforts to include queer gamers gets treated as a negative impact on ME?

It should not have to "fit the story." That old excuse from BioWare itself is bull.

I'm reading a lot of platitudes about restricting queerness to the sidelines.

One of my best friends refuses to play Mass Effect because there aren't M/M romances available. I think that's certainly justified, and that there should be romances of both genders available to all characters.

That said, from a writing standpoint, I do sort of understand wanting some NPCs to have an established orientation. It would feel weird for me if, say, Garrus's reminiscences about his time in the military changed based on the gender of the player. I also liked the fact that Jack was represented as straight despite having fooled around with men and women before - it showed a level of understanding of the different ways that sexuality can work that I found frankly surprising. I did find it kind of a letdown that Tali was straight, though... since there had been no strong indications of that fact previously, and making her bi wouldn't require any significant change to her dialogue or character.

One of my favorite parts in the game is when Mordin reveals himself to be basically asexual, though constantly beseiged by various races hitting on him. It jolted me out of my default assumption that all males should be interested in femshep, and was also a gentle jab at all the xenophiles who play the game.

Do you think that all love interests should be bi, or would you think it was just as good if there were romances available no matter what gender you were interested in?

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 30 mars 2011 - 10:49 .

[Werrf]

Honestly, given that half the love interests in ME 2 aren't even human, gender seems like a pretty small issue. If Shepard hasn't chosen to pursue such an option so far, well...she hasn't chosen to pursue it. If she has started a relationship, great, she's started one. She can stick with it, or chose to come out and go the other way, or whatever. Why should players be denied content based on the type of character they've chosen to play? It worked really well in Dragon Age 2 - all love interests were available to all players. If you didn't want to pursue a given relationship, you didn't pursue it, no harm, no foul. If you chose to, you were able to. There's only one dialogue in the game where it feels forced in any way.

[James2912]

To clarify my position I don't think that people have a right to same sex romance or opposite sex romance in a game. Especially since this game isn't about romance. However people do have a right to complain because complaining is the only way things change!

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Werrf wrote...

Honestly, given that half the love interests in ME 2 aren't even human, gender seems like a pretty small issue. If Shepard hasn't chosen to pursue such an option so far, well...she hasn't chosen to pursue it. If she has started a relationship, great, she's started one. She can stick with it, or chose to come out and go the other way, or whatever. Why should players be denied content based on the type of character they've chosen to play? It worked really well in Dragon Age 2 - all love interests were available to all players. If you didn't want to pursue a given relationship, you didn't pursue it, no harm, no foul. If you chose to, you were able to. There's only one dialogue in the game where it feels forced in any way.

Either way this plays out, I hope that Bioware gets better at clearly demarcating "this is going to get flirty" vs. "this is not going to get flirty." I'M LOOKING AT YOU, JACOB. Other than The forced flirting with a guy who I'm not interested in was my least favorite part of ME2, and it was much worse than the accidental Liara flirting in ME1 (which I found entirely inoffensive). This is from someone who tends slightly toward picking male love interests... it just felt awkward.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 30 mars 2011 - 10:58 .

[Tazzmission]

lol it just dawned on me. can you imagine a mission that involves udina in a same sex romance and the goal is to expose him?

[Athro]

James2912 wrote...

I have a question what would be more insulting not having a gay or bi LI in ME3 or a really crappy stereotypical romance? 



OP if you think this question is not on topic please let me know and I'll remove it

To be honest? Not having a gay/bi LI for mShep.

I'd be disappointed in a poorly written romance, but at least it would be there. I'd take corny visibility over being ignored any day of the week.

C.

[James2912]

Interesting, because a lot of the romances are sub par and I think Bioware might feel awkward writing a gay romance because they might screw it up, and create a controversy. Just a thought I had. No evidence to back it up. But could this be a reason? I mean its not an excuse or anything but its a possibility.

[Zulu_DFA]

Yeah, sure. With all the pressure BioWare has been getting from their long-time fan-base and the "PC elitists" lately, they definitely need some homophobic organization, like, IDK, the Boy Scouts of America, to pick up on Commander Shepard's moral values.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 30 mars 2011 - 11:15 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Actually, now that I think about it, I'd prefer to have all LIs be bi than have no same sex LIs at all. I can start arguing about realistic characters of all genders and orientations once the more serious problem has been addressed.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 30 mars 2011 - 11:16 .

[AdmiralCheez]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Actually, now that I think about it, I'd prefer to have all LIs be bi than have no same sex LIs at all. I can start arguing about realistic characters once the more serious problem has been addressed.

Me, too.  Think of it as multiple playthroughs.

Shepard, for example, can be either a spacer, a colonist, or a street kid.  But (s)he can't be all three at once.  Similarly, Miranda would only be gay if you pursued a romance with her as a woman.

And no, gentlemen--if Miri sleeps with FemShep, she's not cheating on you.  FemShep is still Shepard, just sans penis.

[Lee337]

Problem is, for every person who wants it theres another who doesn't. Probably two, it's still a minority group.

[AdmiralCheez]

Lee337 wrote...

Problem is, for every person who wants it theres another who doesn't. Probably two, it's still a minority group.

I'm willing to bet the majority don't even care.  The people in the "do not want" crowd just happen to be loudmouths *coughFOXNEWScough*.

[James2912]

Thinking on the subject again, I would support these current characters as bi in ME3:
Kelly
Kaidan- my first impression of him was that he was gay go figure.
garrus- he is an alien, why would he be attracted to a human female and not a human male. In fact why is he attracted to a human female in the first place?
Tali- see Garrus
Jack- didn't she say she had a threesome with another woman? or implied it or something

I can't think of any others at the moment. But if there alien they can be bi basically.

[DPSSOC]

I have no issue with Bioware including bi or ****** relationships in ME3, just like I wouldn't have had an issue with it in ME or ME2 and like I didn't in DA:O. However this is under the condition that they leave existing relationships alone. Do not make Ash, Kaidan, Jacob, Miranda, etc. suddenly bi or gay. These characters have been established, they do not swing both ways leave them alone. Making changes to a characters sexuality out of nowhere is pandering, we don't want that. If you want a new LI who's bi or gay I'm with you, but the existing LI's are set, accept it.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Lee337 wrote...

Problem is, for every person who wants it theres another who doesn't. Probably two, it's still a minority group.

I'm willing to bet the majority don't even care.  The people in the "do not want" crowd just happen to be loudmouths *coughFOXNEWScough*.

I wonder how difficult/politically viable it would be to introduce an option? I know this is horribly controversial given the dude who complained about DA2 recently... but give characters established orientations, and then an option to check an "All love interests available to both genders" option if you want it.

Of course, if I wanted to play it like that, I'd be tempted to include a gorgeous lesbian female... so that dudes who wanted to get with her would have to check the "all love interests both genders" option. I am a big fan of irony.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 30 mars 2011 - 11:29 .

[Eromenos]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

One of my best friends refuses to play Mass Effect because there aren't M/M romances available. I think that's certainly justified, and that there should be romances of both genders available to all characters.

Your friend is stronger than either of us.

That said, from a writing standpoint, I do sort of understand wanting some NPCs to have an established orientation. It would feel weird for me if, say, Garrus's reminiscences about his time in the military changed based on the gender of the player.

I can't see how expanding, say, Kaidan and Ashley's preferences would be a bad thing. Many of us queers who held torches for Kaidan/Ashley/Morrigan/Alistair/Bastila/Carth would be over the moon for this. Straight allies might even get warm feelings for our sake. The leading LIs were designed to be appealing, and it's not like they expressly rejected same-sex overtures. We simply were not allowed even to try and flirt. It's "assumed" that we wouldn't want and it's "assumed" that they wouldn't want. If they were expanded it would be like amending the wrong that was actually committed in the first place, which was restricting them to opposite-sex romance alone for no good reason.

Anders in DA2 was made to perform very similarly to the way you suggested with the Garrus example. BioWare did it for homophobic reasons, a double-standard.

I did find it kind of a letdown that Tali was straight, though... since there had been no strong indications of that fact previously, and making her bi wouldn't require any significant change to her dialogue or character.

I'm with you on Tali, and I apply this entire line of thinking even to the LIs who were presented to be straight. I only see it so far as them being presented as liking the opposite-sex, which doesn't preclude them being able to like the same-sex.

One of my favorite parts in the game is when Mordin reveals himself to be basically asexual, though constantly beseiged by various races hitting on him. It jolted me out of my default assumption that all males should be interested in femshep, and was also a gentle jab at all the xenophiles who play the game.

It did make me laugh for the same reasons you did. But I also never forgot BioWare's homophobic platitudes about that scene. They called it fan-service to queer male gamers. I'm paraphrasing what I remember from the interview.

Do you think that all love interests should be bi, or would you think it was just as good if there were romances available no matter what gender you were interested in?

I want the latter, but to have that I believe we need the former. Ultimately, both. Restricting it to only the latter creates dangerous environments like JE, DAO, ME1, and ME2 in which same-sex offerings become marginalized and exploited. Beginning with the former is what allows for choices on the players' part.

Modifié par Eromenos, 30 mars 2011 - 11:39 .

[AdmiralCheez]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Of course, if I wanted to play it like that, I'd be tempted to include a gorgeous lesbian female... so that dudes who wanted to get with her would have to check the "all love interests both genders" option. I am a big fan of irony.

*rubs hands together deviously* Yes.  Yeessss....

@DPSSOC: I get where you're coming from and it's a compromise I'm willing to make, but I'm still bitter over the fact that some of the characters were originally going to be bi, but BW wussed out.

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Gays are too tiny a minority to matter.

That had better be bitter sarcasm, buster B(

[James2912]

What about allowing male shep to wear femshep's clothes? a compromise?



I am so kidding

[Lucifer_Cheney]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Yeah, sure. With all the pressure BioWare has been getting from their long-time fan-base and the "PC elitists" lately, they definitely need some homophobic organization, like, IDK, the Boy Scouts of America, to pick up on Commander Shepard's moral values.

I loves me some sarcasm!

Modifié par Lucifer_Cheney, 30 mars 2011 - 11:53 .

[Eromenos]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Gays are too tiny a minority to matter.

You did accurately copy BioWare's attitude. Congrats...?

Modifié par Eromenos, 30 mars 2011 - 11:53 .

[DPSSOC]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
@DPSSOC: I get where you're coming from and it's a compromise I'm willing to make, but I'm still bitter over the fact that some of the characters were originally going to be bi, but BW wussed out.

Hmm maybe I could let those slide.  I just don't want it to be like DA2 where everyone's bi.  By making every romance available to everyone you make the fact meaningless.  Liara is special because she's the only romance available to both genders.  Leliana and Zevran were the same.  If a few characters are bi/homosexual it's a commitment to same sex romances; if everyone's bi it's just laziness.

[Tomppa666t]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Gays are too tiny a minority to matter.

I hope so