151 réponses à ce sujet

[CulturalGeekGirl]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

For my part I don't care whether gays are represented or not. I don't think Bioware does either, or any company. What they care about is profit.

Well, duh.  But it'd be nice.  After all, they already had girl-on-girl and girl-on-space-chicken.

Of-course, one needn't be gay necessarily to enjoy same-sex relationships in the game. Male gamers are the majority though and that is why we get Fhemshep + Liara but no Kaidan + Shep or other male on male romances.

The vast majority of gamers also play soldier.  Should we get rid of the other classes?

Honestly, whlie a "company" might not care about people, a company can't actually think on its own. It's not a sentient organism. When you sign up to a company you aren't converted into goo and formed into a terribble immoral superintelligence (though there has been some interesting writing on the fact that, if corporations were sentient, they'd be sociopaths. REMIND YOU OF ANYONE?) (This is a reaper joke).

Ahem. Anyway - while a company might not care about a particular issue, people at that company may. Peole who are capable of making decisions. Some people who design games are artists. They are artists who are working for a profit, like a writer who works with a publisher, but that doesn't mean they aren't artists who care about the artistic integrity of their work.

Media companies are a little different from other corporations, in this respect. A lot of the time, when you ask someone who has made something crazy successful how they did it, they'll say something like "I just wrote a book that I would have wanted to read" or "I just made a game I thought would be fun." It's the balance between marketing concerns and artistic integrity that makes a good game. When I write dialogue, I'm trying to write something I think is good, not just fulfil a list of dictates produced by marketing. That said, sometimes you have to cut that really cool social links system in order to implement some more shooting. You pick your battles.

So even if it won't change the bottom line, if we can get the artists creating the content to sympathize with our side, we have a better chance to get content that we enjoy. What's more, the content we do get will be of higher quality if the artists involved care about it than if they're simply producing it due to some marketing demand. Because people do care about people. And people make games, not corporations.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 31 mars 2011 - 12:24 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Eromenos wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Making any of the old romance options bi when they weren't before would be stupid, but other than that I don't have a problem with the idea. Kelly should be expanded into a full love interest, for example. I'd prefer that they don't go the DA 2 route and just take the easiest way out and make everyone bi, though.

So...the concept of allowing everyone to have equal shots at a meaningful romantic choice is...bad for who, exactly? Well, what a pity. Seems like it's only good so long as "alternative sexuality" remains marked and shoved into its own corner to supposedly placate "everybody." No, sexuality is hardly so black-and-white. Having all-bisexual LIs should not lessen a straight person's enjoyment of romances unless that straight person believes bisexual people are not real, or that they're seconds at best. Frankly, it's not asking too much to not be shut out over no good reason other than satisfying homophobic mandates screaming that queer gamers should be grateful for whatever crumbs we get.

My point was not that "equality is bad" but that it just seems like the easy way out. Instead of making a good character that is bi or gay, just hand waving everyone to be attracted to both genders seems lazy. And kind of silly. Not everybody you run into everywhere you go is bisexual.

And radically retconing old characters to be something they weren't before is a bad storytelling decision.

[Eromenos]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

Any "politely submitted petitions" only conveniently funnel us away from engaging in extended dialogue or from creating bad BioWare publicity that garners attention the way these threads do.

You aren't generating any bad publicity here. If you truly feel this way go to Fox News and tell them your story.

I'm generating lots, and I'm not the only one. These threads attract you and I alike, and the camps we each call home. These are flashpoints for the dialogue I need after playing these games or witnessing mass media in general; this is a place and a way to critique the very people who exhibit your homophobic attitude and BioWare's.

JE would never have gotten even its homophobic same-sex content if it weren't for the pro-queer forum visits that KOTOR elicited. The same thing can be applied to all DA and ME games. The token same-sex content was not "given" by BioWare as a result of some brainchild that they exclusively arrived at without us having a say, no matter how they would like to pretend so or you might like to pretend so. That we even have so little same-sex content at all is from people making noise about what is needed and wanted, and too often whitewashed. In my case, I speak without any respect towards gay-hating dismissals that pretend we're worth nothing, or begrudgingly tokenize us for the sake of "good" publicity.

Modifié par Eromenos, 31 mars 2011 - 12:39 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Uh huh, that's why the latest DLC had so much "choice" in it, right? Come on now. Bioware only cares about what will make them a profit. They are a business.

They are being criticized for Arrival, and usually they respond to criticism.  Look at the changes made from ME1 to ME2 and from ME2 to Shadow Broker.

The only choice they care about you making is the one to give them your money or not.

More player choice = more money.  Caring about customers = respect from customers = increased chance of repeat customers = more money.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Guys game developers are human beings! THEY HAVE EMOTIONS! This is not an extremely lucrative field that people go into because they want to get rich cranking out generic corporate sludge! It is a job where you work crazy terrible hours because you love games and you want the people who play those games to be happy!

Arglebarglemargle.

[Almostfaceman]

These threads do little but generate heated arguments, imho. Without trying to make anyone mad, my opinion on the matter is that this late in the story, with a pretty well established cast, adding a character that is same-sex or bisexual is just tacky tokenism. I don't want to see it in the game. I also understand and agree with the dev's opinion on the matter here.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 31 mars 2011 - 12:42 .

[brfritos]

Well, if at least I could sleep with hookers or lover boys in Omega I would be happy, but even this Bioware won't allow me, much less making my manly Shepard go on with Kaidan, Thane or even Jacob.

Well, there's always New Vegas then.  

[StarGateGod]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Tomppa666t wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Gays are too tiny a minority to matter.

I hope so

Thanks for hoping I don't matter, douchebag.

your welcome, just mod your PC or X box to get you LI to be lesbain, no need to make them waste resources on a minority

[Clonedzero]

thurmanator692 wrote...

I still haven't heard a decent argument for a lack of bisexual LIs

well it felt really weird in DA2. specifically anders how he expressed interest in women in Awakening but never anything of the sort about men. so either i would have to flat out reject him instead of side stepping it and take a rivalry hit or sidestep it and constantly have him hit on me every conversation.

so changing an established characters orientation would be the wrong move to do. it'd effectively kill the character for alot of people. i know if garrus started hitting on me it'd basically ruin the whole awesome friendship vibe they have going for them for me.

introducing new characters who are bi/gay i'm all for though, just dont pull the whole "hey garrus is bi now!" or "kaiden is bi now!" thing. because that'd be really weird and ruin the characters for alot of people since that whole bi portion of their personality would feel forced and tacked on

[CulturalGeekGirl]

StarGateGod wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Tomppa666t wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Gays are too tiny a minority to matter.

I hope so

Thanks for hoping I don't matter, douchebag.

your welcome, just mod your PC or X box to get you LI to be lesbain, no need to make them waste resources on a minority

So you'd rather only Miranda come back as a love interest in Mass Effect 3? I'm surprised to hear you say that! After all, only a small minority of players do romance options, and the vast majority of those pick Miranda. Putting Tali in as a love interest wastes a LOT of resources on a minority.

Edited for too much sarcasm. But seriously, folks, demographics and resources aren't everything.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 31 mars 2011 - 12:51 .

[Lucifer_Cheney]

StarGateGod wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Tomppa666t wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Gays are too tiny a minority to matter.

I hope so

Thanks for hoping I don't matter, douchebag.

your welcome, just mod your PC or X box to get you LI to be lesbain, no need to make them waste resources on a minority

Are you in the Tea Party by chance?

Modifié par Lucifer_Cheney, 31 mars 2011 - 12:52 .

[brfritos]

Clonedzero wrote...

so changing an established characters orientation would be the wrong move to do. it'd effectively kill the character for alot of people. i know if garrus started hitting on me it'd basically ruin the whole awesome friendship vibe they have going for them for me.

But not femShep hitting on him, right? 

[Almostfaceman]

Lucifer_Cheney wrote...

StarGateGod wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Tomppa666t wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Gays are too tiny a minority to matter.

I hope so

Thanks for hoping I don't matter, douchebag.

your welcome, just mod your PC or X box to get you LI to be lesbain, no need to make them waste resources on a minority

Are you in the Tea Party by chance?

LoL, the LAST thing you should be doing is throwing around stereotypes.  Right?

[Eromenos]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

My point was not that "equality is bad" but that it just seems like the easy way out. Instead of making a good character that is bi or gay, just hand waving everyone to be attracted to both genders seems lazy. And kind of silly. Not everybody you run into everywhere you go is bisexual.

And radically retconing old characters to be something they weren't before is a bad storytelling decision.

No, not everyone is bisexual. And yet there are fewer people in this world who are 100% straight, in spite of what we're told everyday. Much fewer.

Why would it be lazy? I think excluding queer people either completely or to the sidelines thus far is what's truly lazy. Cop-out exploitations in the form of limiting same-sex ME LIs to just Liara have everything to do with BioWare making less work for themselves both during the process and in the aftermath of unveiling their product to the homophobic gaming community. That more than anything smells of trying to have it both ways despite in reality maintaing Liara to be appealing and "permissible" to straight culture first and foremost. FYI I'm not criticizing people who like Liara, or even her; I'm criticizing the choices that limit it to just her in a way that stems from fear of homophobia.

*shrug* I don't imagine or witness all bisexual people "broadcasting" their likes. Bisexual people are diverse like all people. Just because a lover might be bisexual does not always mean it's a flag they're wrapped up in. And if they are, that's fine as well. In DA2, some of them did broadcast and some of them did not.  Whereas it's much more common to see straight people broadcasting their likes, practically by default, from the safety of numbers. It's just less noticeable coming from straight people because it's taken as mandatory etiquette or something. But it's there.

Why does it matter if we notice that they may or may not be bi, if ultimately we choose them and they choose us? There's nothing wrong with being bi in the first place. We don't need to look at that aspect as some kind of otherness.

Modifié par Eromenos, 31 mars 2011 - 01:01 .

[StarGateGod]

Lucifer_Cheney wrote...

StarGateGod wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Tomppa666t wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Gays are too tiny a minority to matter.

I hope so

Thanks for hoping I don't matter, douchebag.

your welcome, just mod your PC or X box to get you LI to be lesbain, no need to make them waste resources on a minority

Are you in the Tea Party by chance?

nope im a demacrat but i vote for myself in every election

[StarGateGod]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

StarGateGod wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Tomppa666t wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Gays are too tiny a minority to matter.

I hope so

Thanks for hoping I don't matter, douchebag.

your welcome, just mod your PC or X box to get you LI to be lesbain, no need to make them waste resources on a minority

So you'd rather only Miranda come back as a love interest in Mass Effect 3? I'm surprised to hear you say that! After all, only a small minority of players do romance options, and the vast majority of those pick Miranda. Putting Tali in as a love interest wastes a LOT of resources on a minority.

Edited for too much sarcasm. But seriously, folks, demographics and resources aren't everything.

i highly doubt that, most people hate her, and people love tali, love tali i demand you. frannkly if they took out all LI in the game id been fine with it, im sure there is great fan fic, may be even some with picture
but in the end all that matters is money and demographics

[AdmiralCheez]

StarGateGod wrote...

your welcome, just mod your PC or X box to get you LI to be lesbain, no need to make them waste resources on a minority

So I guess only white American males should play this game, huh?

[mx3ze]

DO NOT WANT.

[Zkyire]

Why do people care so much about LIs?

It's an action RPG not a bloody dating sim.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Eromenos wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

My point was not that "equality is bad" but that it just seems like the easy way out. Instead of making a good character that is bi or gay, just hand waving everyone to be attracted to both genders seems lazy. And kind of silly. Not everybody you run into everywhere you go is bisexual.

And radically retconing old characters to be something they weren't before is a bad storytelling decision.

No, not everyone is bisexual. And yet there are fewer people in this world who are 100%, straight in spite of what we're told everyday. Much fewer.

Why would it be lazy? I think excluding queer people either completely or to the sidelines thus far is what's truly lazy. Cop-out exploitations in the form of limiting same-sex ME LIs to just Liara have everything to do with BioWare making less work for themselves both during the process and in the aftermath of unveiling their product to the homophobic gaming community. That more than anything smells of trying to have it both ways despite in reality maintaing Liara to be appealing and "permissible" to straight culture first and foremost. FYI I'm not criticizing people who like Liara, or even her; I'm criticizing the choices that limit it to just her in a way that stems from fear of homophobia.

*shrug* I don't imagine or witness all bisexual people "broadcasting" their likes. Bisexual people are diverse like all people. Just because a lover might be bisexual does not always mean it's a flag they're wrapped up in. In DA2, some of them did broadcast and some of them did not.  Whereas it's much more common to see straight people broadcasting their likes, practically by default, from the safety of numbers. It's just less noticeable coming from straight people because it's taken as mandatory etiquette or something. But it's there.

I'm curious as to how you'd feel about a "turn all love interests on" flag that the player could set? It seems... the sanest compromise at this point. Heck, you could supplement it with a "turn all love interests off" flag that would let people who don't want to be hit on by anyone play comfortably.

[AdmiralCheez]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

Why do people care so much about LIs?

It's an action RPG not a bloody dating sim.

Blame Bioware for putting them in there in the first place.  This was bound to happen.

[Lucifer_Cheney]

StarGateGod wrote...

Lucifer_Cheney wrote...

StarGateGod wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Tomppa666t wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Gays are too tiny a minority to matter.

I hope so

Thanks for hoping I don't matter, douchebag.

your welcome, just mod your PC or X box to get you LI to be lesbain, no need to make them waste resources on a minority

Are you in the Tea Party by chance?

nope im a demacrat but i vote for myself in every election

You'll have my vote so long as you agree to be beholden to the video game nerd lobby (of which i'm a proud member).

[Thalorin1919]

People on this forum care and argue about the romances more then anything else in this forum.


Either some of had a bad real-life relationships, or some of you are just zealously passionate about pixelated characters.

It's a little ridiculous. Can we complile on these kind of threads into one?