72 réponses à ce sujet

[highcastle]

Foolsfolly wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Personally I feel it's an unsatisfying because it doesn't finish anything it started.
Hawke's fate? Unknown. Nature of the idol? Unknown. Outlook of the mage/templar war? Unknown. Results? Unknown - wait for DA3 to find out!

The plot, while well written, has too much meandering that when it gets to the substance, the game just stops. Doesn't end, just stops.

Dealing with uncertainity and the unknown is one of the games major themes.

Debatable.

Saying uncertainity is a theme of an unfocused game is a really easy out to take just to defend the story. And dealing with the unknown? Most games have unknowns lying ahead of the character, that's part of the fun, and again debatable if that's a theme.

The thing that makes it really hard to believe these are themes come from the fact that the story/characters never reference this. You never hear a character lament about the uncertain times. You don't have Hawke shake his head and sigh about how there's no clear answer.

You just have a few choices and a story that's disconnected from the main character.

I don't see how DA2 is unfocused. The game clearly foreshadows the conflict between mages and templars from the prologue with Wesley's reaction to Bethany and/or mage!Hawke. This moves right into Act 1 with quests like Act of Mercy and Tranquility. Everything with the Arishok was to set Hawke up as someone with the power and influence to affect this conflict. The game had a tight focus on Hawke's personal life, on his relation to the mages and templars, and on his ultimate influence in the upcoming war. You might not like that focus, you might want it to be more of a traditional wake-up-save-the-world fare. That's fine, but the game's not unfocused. It's personal.

As for the uncertainty angle, it most definitely is reflected in the game. We have Carver in Act 1 talk about how he never understood why people could be so afraid of Bethany and Hawke until he sees Tehrone's blood magic. He then says he doesn't know what the right answer is. Hawke can tell Cullen his opinion on mages is that he doesn't think the Circle works, but that it's not fully wrong. The dialogue choice is "there must be a better way."

Struggling for middle ground and for balance seems to be a recurring theme. It's the ultimate reason why Anders blew up the Chantry. He "removed the possibility of compromise because there can be no compromise." Orisno and Meredith had been looking for that elusive "third option," and Anders removed it.

[greyman33]

highcastle wrote...
Struggling for middle ground and for balance seems to be a recurring theme. It's the ultimate reason why Anders blew up the Chantry. He "removed the possibility of compromise because there can be no compromise." Orisno and Meredith had been looking for that elusive "third option," and Anders removed it.

I don't know about this.  I actaully felt like there was too much certainty from the leaders of the factions.  At least at teh top levels both teh Mages and Templars see things only in the harshest black and white.  They are right, the other side is wrong.  All the time, with no need or desire for debate.  They are hyperpartisans who didn't seem to me to really be looking for a third option, they were just being held in check by the lynchpin of the chantry and the Reveared Mother.  The pin was removed and they were free to detonate like a hand grenade.

I didn't get the idea that the compromise was one that either Orsino or Meredith really wanted, just one they were having thrust upon them.

[ThePasserby]

The Hero in DA:O ended the game triumphant. The Archdemon vanquished and the Blight ended. Even if the Warden gave his life, we'd still consider it a victory, as he did not die in vain.

Now fast forward to the end of DA2. I'd be hard pressed to say that the Champion ended victoriously. He and his companions essentially fled to the hills. There was no coronation, no applause. The Champion disappeared under a cloud of controversy. He may have defeated a self-styled local tyrant, but the over-arching events engulfed him and drove him to seek cover. That last scene of the party retreating from the battlefield isn't exactly the image of a hero being cheered upon vanquishing a villain.

And this is the thing. A writer may feel that this is a suitable ending, but for many consumers, heroes do not end in defeat. A defeat is merely a setback, and the bad guys will always get their comeuppance later in the story, for many's point of view. A scene that ends in the hero's defeat is not the end yet, there has to be more.

Maybe it is the genre, or the fairytales we have grown up with, but an ending is when the conflict/danger/villain is resolved/defeated - not being defeated by events larger than the hero and having to flee and hide. This lack of a resolution of the mage/templar conflict leaves the consumer with a sense that the story isn't done yet, hence the feeling of it being a cliffhanger.

[LadyBri]

I think cliffhanger may be the wrong word for DA:O, but that game certainly did not have a happy ending at least on my runs.

Even my "canon" ending, with the Queen Cousland, is not fully happy because her and Alistair know that Morrigan is out there somewhere with OGB. Not to mention Awakenings with the death of the mother and the entire issue of the Architect regardless if he lives or dies.

Plus, both epilogues for DA:O/DA:A end with the warden just disappearing one day. I would hardly call that a happy perfect fairy tale despite the end of the blight. Can't even say you killed the archdemon because OGB may exist and we don't know what that means.

My point is that the ending of DA:O is really no more of a comfort than the ending of DA:2. Both leave room for countless possibilities, which to me is exciting and I just want more.

[KAAurious]

They both did.

There was just less closure in DA2. In DA:O you got the post-battle celebration, with your warden walking around the room chatting up with his or her allies. You got the idea that whatever Morrigan has cooked up is going to make a big splash later on. Then the epilogue tells you that darkspawn are showing up in Amaranthine.

DA2?

Oh ****! Orsino has gone batty!

Oh ****! Meredith has gone batty... er!

Credits!

There was never really any time where you got to touch base with your allies after the massive ****storm. You just get Varrics account of, "Yeah. They all drifted apart except *LOVE INTEREST*"

[Valdrane78]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Warden stopped the fifth Blight. Hawke did nothing. She just happened to be around when everything happens.

And when an RPG game ends and player hasn't influenced anything it annoys the hell out of player. The real problem is that DA2 ends when you still haven't changed anything major.

Changed nothing major?!?

You instigated a war that could very well tear the world apart.

[ThePasserby]

LadyBri wrote...

I think cliffhanger may be the wrong word for DA:O, but that game certainly did not have a happy ending at least on my runs.

Even my "canon" ending, with the Queen Cousland, is not fully happy because her and Alistair know that Morrigan is out there somewhere with OGB. Not to mention Awakenings with the death of the mother and the entire issue of the Architect regardless if he lives or dies.

Plus, both epilogues for DA:O/DA:A end with the warden just disappearing one day. I would hardly call that a happy perfect fairy tale despite the end of the blight. Can't even say you killed the archdemon because OGB may exist and we don't know what that means.

My point is that the ending of DA:O is really no more of a comfort than the ending of DA:2. Both leave room for countless possibilities, which to me is exciting and I just want more.

No story, except children's fairy tales, end without some issues unresolved. However, every story has a main conflict, and in DA:O's case, it is the Blight and the kingdom's succession question. Both are resolved when the game ends. There is a coronation scene and the Hero receives a boon, and rides off with his love interest, for a time, at least. This is a classic story ending. The epilogue raises some more questions, but overall, the satisfaction level is high, for the Warden is now hailed as the kingdom's hero who accomplishes what he set what to achieve.

DA2 on the other hand, has the high point of the Champion's career at the end of Act 2. He defeated the Arishok and saved the nobles and prevented further bloodshed. But the game didn't end there. It went on to tell of the Hero's fall from grace, from being a Champion to someone who is complicit in the mage/templar war, ending not in triumph but in controversy, and fled.

While DA:O's story does not end like a children's fairy tale with "and they lived happily ever after" and I doubt many among us would want that, it is still by large a happy ending. We can't say the same for DA2.

[Radec]

Valdrane78 wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Warden stopped the fifth Blight. Hawke did nothing. She just happened to be around when everything happens.

And when an RPG game ends and player hasn't influenced anything it annoys the hell out of player. The real problem is that DA2 ends when you still haven't changed anything major.

Changed nothing major?!?

You instigated a war that could very well tear the world apart.

The war was inevitable. The system clearly didn't work, and both sides were just waiting for a reason to kick start the party. Hawk was just there for the show.

[88mphSlayer]

ThePasserby wrote...

The Hero in DA:O ended the game triumphant. The Archdemon vanquished and the Blight ended. Even if the Warden gave his life, we'd still consider it a victory, as he did not die in vain.

Now fast forward to the end of DA2. I'd be hard pressed to say that the Champion ended victoriously. He and his companions essentially fled to the hills. There was no coronation, no applause. The Champion disappeared under a cloud of controversy. He may have defeated a self-styled local tyrant, but the over-arching events engulfed him and drove him to seek cover. That last scene of the party retreating from the battlefield isn't exactly the image of a hero being cheered upon vanquishing a villain.

And this is the thing. A writer may feel that this is a suitable ending, but for many consumers, heroes do not end in defeat. A defeat is merely a setback, and the bad guys will always get their comeuppance later in the story, for many's point of view. A scene that ends in the hero's defeat is not the end yet, there has to be more.

Maybe it is the genre, or the fairytales we have grown up with, but an ending is when the conflict/danger/villain is resolved/defeated - not being defeated by events larger than the hero and having to flee and hide. This lack of a resolution of the mage/templar conflict leaves the consumer with a sense that the story isn't done yet, hence the feeling of it being a cliffhanger.

i don't think it's the lack of resolution on the mage vs. templar conflict that leaves the consumer unsatisfied, afterall neither Mass Effect 1 nor Mass Effect 2 solved the reaper invasion threat

i think it's simply how the game leaves the champion and companions, which is rather abruptly... we get that the mage vs. templar thing isn't something that can be solved with act 4 or whatever, but i think the average joe would like more closure on their kirkwall journey

[Harcken]

David Gaider wrote...

Indeed. There's lots of criticisms one can make about the ending (and I've seen many)-- not having enough closure to be satisfying might be one, depending on how you feel about it, but there were people who said the same thing about Origins even before Awakening came out. The hero "walking off into the sunset" was insufficient, to them. Some people are always going to be unhappy when they want the story to continue on, particularly if they were drawn into it.

I think those people were complaining out of a desire for more Dragon Age. It was the first installement, we got a little piece of this giant world filled with lore and mysteries; so everyone hungered for more more more! Dragon Age II... well, it's just different. It just feels like nothing happened... the lore is the same, the conflicts/disputes are the same, the pople act the same... there's nothing new introduced and consequently, nothing new is concluded.

I want a new culture, a new dispute (Mage vs Templars is cool, but we were already introduced to quite a bit of that in DAO). The codex and Fenris keep talking about the Tevinter Imperium, it's history and societal complex, it's magisters. That's cool and mysterious to me, foreign. I want to explore it! Kirkwall and Hawke? Another Fereldan in a city full of Fereldan refugees with essentially the same culture as DA:O? People hate the dalish, mage vs templars, carta thugs, slavers. Obviously, it's impossible to cut all these out of the game and introduce whole new groups; it would be nice to take these groups and put a new spin on it.

[Chuvvy]

In DAO the story's tied up, has a bow on it and everything. There are cliffhangers but the main story is done. They could have done that with DA2 but they decided to leave you feeling like you're missing act 4. (Which will be packaged and sold as a brand new experience)

[RosaAquafire]

KAAurious wrote...

There was never really any time where you got to touch base with your allies after the massive ****storm. You just get Varrics account of, "Yeah. They all drifted apart except *LOVE INTEREST*"

I agree with this!

After giving it time to sit, I liked DA2's ending, on the whole. I like that it's impossible to end up a hero -- you have to take the fall for making a bad choice, and the only choices available are bad choices. I like that it's not a typical quest fantasy ending. I thought it was dark, gritty, and awesome. YMMV, but while DA:O's ending was "fuzzier," DA2's was, imo, "better."

THAT SAID.

What makes a Bioware game is the characters. They're what connects you to the story, what makes it MATTER to you. And in DA2, I felt that my connection to Isabela and Fenris and Aveline and all the others was abruptly severed before it was time to leave them. The only character in my game I felt got real closure was Anders. Because I executed him.

Now, DA:O's epilogue slides were lame. I never want them back. They're unimmersive and boring. I love to read. I read 30-40 books a year. But reading truncated encyclopedia articles about fake places at considerable length off my monitor in front of a jpg is not fun.

However. I felt that I got to saw goodbye to DA:O's characters, in all endings but the Ultimate Sacrifice, where it was sort of unavoidable. Walking around the throne room and getting to talk to everybody ... that was nice. I know where they were all planning to go. The Warden got to say his final goodbyes, shake hands, make plans.

I think all the complaints with the ending would go away if there were two little epilogues before Varric's final narration. One for people who sided with the templars, where Hawke accepts the viscount's crown and talks to everyone who stayed and fought with her. The other, for those who sided with the mages, where she talks to each of her companions around the fire while fleeing Kirkwall. The dialogues would by neccessity be wildly different, and there would be a lot of branching paths, but I think people would be walking away with a lot less feelings of suddenly being shut the hell out of their own story.

Then Varric makes his final narration, everyone drifts apart, we see Cassandra and Leliana, Seeker's Eye, roll credits.

[Oneiropolos]

David Gaider wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
No.

A story has a question that it needs to answer by the end. The question for Origins was "Will the Warden defeat the Blight?"

We got the answer to that question in Origins, so the story finished. That things happen after the story finishes doesn't matter.

After Robin Hood overthrows the evil Prince, stuff still happens, but it doesn't matter for that story. After Luke blows up the Death Star, stuff still happens, but it doesn't matter for that story.

Lord of the Rings could end when the ring goes into the volcano. It has a very long denouncement but the story question has been satisfied.

Indeed. There's lots of criticisms one can make about the ending (and I've seen many)-- not having enough closure to be satisfying might be one, depending on how you feel about it, but there were people who said the same thing about Origins even before Awakening came out. The hero "walking off into the sunset" was insufficient, to them. Some people are always going to be unhappy when they want the story to continue on, particularly if they were drawn into it.

Which is fine. I'd argue that not every story ends with every plot thread neatly resolved, or even necessarily any. As you point out, the story poses a question which must be answered by the end. A lack of desired closure, however, is not a cliffhanger-- the lack of a climax would be.

It's one of those terms that gets misused, on the internet in particular, much like "cliche" (which seems to boil down to "I've seen this once before" mingled with "I don't like it") or "plot hole" ("I didn't get it" mingled with "I didn't like it"). That said, I understand the origin of the complaint, if not the conclusion drawn. From my perspective, I don't think people wanting to know what happens next is necessarily a bad thing, but I do indeed get some people not liking where it was left off. Food for thought.

...your definition of "Plot hole" now has me laughing hysterically. Because God, it's so true. Some people do legitimately bring up plot holes in things, but most of the time it's "Well, no, see, that's not a plot hole just because  it wasn't entirely explained to you. Sometimes, writers DO expect you to use your brain to piece it together. Or go to the forums and speculate because speculation is fun!" Usually, people don't want to think that hard on it because it developed in a way they didn't like anyway, so clearly, it was just written badly to begin with. 

[Oneiropolos]

RosaAquafire wrote...

KAAurious wrote...

There was never really any time where you got to touch base with your allies after the massive ****storm. You just get Varrics account of, "Yeah. They all drifted apart except *LOVE INTEREST*"

I agree with this!

After giving it time to sit, I liked DA2's ending, on the whole. I like that it's impossible to end up a hero -- you have to take the fall for making a bad choice, and the only choices available are bad choices. I like that it's not a typical quest fantasy ending. I thought it was dark, gritty, and awesome. YMMV, but while DA:O's ending was "fuzzier," DA2's was, imo, "better."

THAT SAID.

What makes a Bioware game is the characters. They're what connects you to the story, what makes it MATTER to you. And in DA2, I felt that my connection to Isabela and Fenris and Aveline and all the others was abruptly severed before it was time to leave them. The only character in my game I felt got real closure was Anders. Because I executed him.

Now, DA:O's epilogue slides were lame. I never want them back. They're unimmersive and boring. I love to read. I read 30-40 books a year. But reading truncated encyclopedia articles about fake places at considerable length off my monitor in front of a jpg is not fun.

However. I felt that I got to saw goodbye to DA:O's characters, in all endings but the Ultimate Sacrifice, where it was sort of unavoidable. Walking around the throne room and getting to talk to everybody ... that was nice. I know where they were all planning to go. The Warden got to say his final goodbyes, shake hands, make plans.

I think all the complaints with the ending would go away if there were two little epilogues before Varric's final narration. One for people who sided with the templars, where Hawke accepts the viscount's crown and talks to everyone who stayed and fought with her. The other, for those who sided with the mages, where she talks to each of her companions around the fire while fleeing Kirkwall. The dialogues would by neccessity be wildly different, and there would be a lot of branching paths, but I think people would be walking away with a lot less feelings of suddenly being shut the hell out of their own story.

Then Varric makes his final narration, everyone drifts apart, we see Cassandra and Leliana, Seeker's Eye, roll credits.

Do agree entirely with you two on that. What I missed was actually talking more with people. The whole 'talk to them before the final battle, oh, that's it!" left me going D: BUT.. BUT.. BUT... I want to know how my friends react to me being the VISCOUNT  or what happens to Aveline if she sides against the Templars!?! Do she and Donnic have to flee Kirkwall or can she return to her post? Did I just ruin one of my best friend's careers because they stood beside me?! Not knowing that stuff is where things felt 'incomplete'. 

[MoMan313]

TheBlackBaron wrote...
Bingo. 

"Cliffhanger" is not the right word, I think, when you consider that the story was out to tell about Hawke rose to prominence; that was more or less accomplished. The problem is that all these other threads that Hawke rose to prominence amidst and sometimes because of are left twisting in the wind in a very abrupt way. 

So yes, while not every thread has to be resolved neatly, to have so many be left completely unfinished and with no guarantee of being picked up again given the track record of continuity between DA:O --> DA2 feels very unsatisfactory. 

Oh God... you should of seen my face when they annouced the discontinuement of my warden... total ragequit...

but then.... I saw a *Certain* DLC trailer for DA2... and caved... Y_____Y

Plus.. I would get bored if I didn't have a new game with me!

As for this whole cliffhanger thing....

-puts on fire suit- People tend to get more personal here.. sooo -puts on fire helm- Because I got fried for calling someone something on a certian fangroup thread..


I didn't like how the whole game of DA2 revolved around the whole mage vs. templar thing.... sure there was the Qunari.... for the first half..

But... I don't know... I was hoping for more of a vairety of sorts.. rather then just templar vs. mage....
And I certainly don't like how they left us hanging and not even WE know where we are! and by we.. I mean our champions!

Well... besides the already stated fact of your Love Interest stays with you.... even if you killed him... -cough- ANDERS -cough-JUSTICE IS BACK-cough-

So.. yeah... its a cliff hanger!

[KennethAFTopp]

David Gaider wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
No.

A story has a question that it needs to answer by the end. The question for Origins was "Will the Warden defeat the Blight?"

We got the answer to that question in Origins, so the story finished. That things happen after the story finishes doesn't matter.

After Robin Hood overthrows the evil Prince, stuff still happens, but it doesn't matter for that story. After Luke blows up the Death Star, stuff still happens, but it doesn't matter for that story.

Lord of the Rings could end when the ring goes into the volcano. It has a very long denouncement but the story question has been satisfied.

Indeed. There's lots of criticisms one can make about the ending (and I've seen many)-- not having enough closure to be satisfying might be one, depending on how you feel about it, but there were people who said the same thing about Origins even before Awakening came out. The hero "walking off into the sunset" was insufficient, to them. Some people are always going to be unhappy when they want the story to continue on, particularly if they were drawn into it.

Which is fine. I'd argue that not every story ends with every plot thread neatly resolved, or even necessarily any. As you point out, the story poses a question which must be answered by the end. A lack of desired closure, however, is not a cliffhanger-- the lack of a climax would be.

It's one of those terms that gets misused, on the internet in particular, much like "cliche" (which seems to boil down to "I've seen this once before" mingled with "I don't like it") or "plot hole" ("I didn't get it" mingled with "I didn't like it"). That said, I understand the origin of the complaint, if not the conclusion drawn. From my perspective, I don't think people wanting to know what happens next is necessarily a bad thing, but I do indeed get some people not liking where it was left off. Food for thought.

DA:O had a fine ending, Awakening less so. DA2's ending is horrible, probably one of the worst ending in Video game history.

[supakillaii]

I personally found Awakening's ending damn good, hard to say if it was better or worse than DA:O or DAII, but it was damn good, especially when I burned Amaranthine... I...

[Ascendra]

I liked DA2 ending better in general. Its personal opinion but I prefer my characters to walk away and leave everything to imagination. Knowing Bioware, you KNOW for certain their story will continue (and I really hope it will continue for Hawke).
I liked DAO slides only when they told me how different people, villages, places ended up after I've been there, but I did not care when it told me what happened to the Warden as I prefer to leave it to my own imagination.

That said, people always complain. Give them closed ending, they start complaining 'but what about Morrigan, I want her back!' or 'i want to have babies with Alistair since I'm the queen of Ferelden! And it doesn't matter that Grey Wardens are infertile! , and other stuff like that. Give them the heroe's death, they complain they wanted their character to live like in Fallout, or the alternative where your character wasn't heroic enough in the end. Or Divinity 2 - where you end up in prison.

For that reason I like DA2 more, I got what I wanted. My LI remained at my side and **** hit the fan, so there is going to be something really big in DA3 where Hawke might come back (I hope). A bit like ME2, only on a lesser scale.

[Altima Darkspells]

DAO's ending (and I mean Origins, though it applies even to Awakening) of the Warden riding off into the sunset could have been added on at the last minute of development.

DA2 seems to do nothing but lead up to a cliffhanger. It is in no way a self-contained story and seems to stop right as things were get interesting.

Everything you did in Origins was leading up to the end, and the stabbity death you visited upon the Archdemon was quite satisfying.

In DA2, every act seemed to be leading to...nothing. It may as well have been an anthology. The spastic end bosses didn't help, either.

[supakillaii]

In DAII, you only played a Story, which told of the Champion's Rise, and ended with the Champion disappearing.

That was kind of the idea. Just like, for example, the story of Snow White and the Seven Dwarves, it ended with the words "Happily ever after", except they were replaced with "And no one has seen the Champion since". It was the end of a story.

[Ascendra]

This.
It wasn't about you fighting some evil overlord, it was about you becoming who you were - a powerful 'insert class here' guy or girl who seemed to be a part of a larger conflict. You did not even know until the very end who was you villain. I would actually argue that the main villain was Anders since he set all this in motion, but that's another topic. Meredith wasn't evil crazy as I thought in the beginning, so wasnt Orsino. I started the gamefully prepared to hate Meredith but couldnt, I a actully felt sorry for her.
That's why I find this cliffhanger perfectly acceptable. It is just a different story, which I find more personal and emotional. Not every story has to be about big heroes, you know

[JaJ-blade79]

It is a cliffhangar no doubt about it and it leaves me wanted more. I wonder if the warden comes back and has to team up with leliana once again to stop this unforeseen threat. Personally i think my hawke accomplished certain things like stopping a serial killer, cleaning up the streets, helping a half human half elf deal with his power, reuniting his uncle with his long lost daughter, saving kirkwall from the qunari threat, uncovering a plot in the chantry to start a war with the qunari, and defeating meredith and ending her ambition over that city so i find it odd that some would say that hawke accomplished nothing. Yes there should have been alot more story and alot more character development but damn it hawke did these things and he made a difference at least a little bit in the lives of certain ppl in kirkwall, he/she just not as epic a task as ending a blight like the warden did.

[JaJ-blade79]

And I think Flemeth, Morrigan and that godchild are going to be the real threat, no doubt in part 3