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So how many people are more "old school / hardcore" rpg fans?


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#151
Sacred_Fantasy

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AlanC9 wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
Hawke suffer personality disorder as victim of voice protagonist. Try maintain sarcastic/joke or aggressive then use investigate option. His "good tone" investigate line of dialogue in between his dominant sarcastic or aggresive personality is priceless. Voice acting is still bad for personification. I can't imagine how anyone can think Hawke as his character.


So it's not really that the character is pre-generated, it's that the VO implementation sucks?

Note that you can get something just as incoherent if you flit around between hostile and friendly responses in DAO or BG (can't do sarcastic in those games because the dialog options usually aren't there). However, I suppose VO may make it harder to ignore the incoherence.

I just tired of reapeting the same things about pre-gen character. Voice incoherence happens to be the one I haven't mentioned before. Here're some other things:

1. "I'm not heading towards the hordes. We go south." - When did I pick that dialogue line?
2. Facial expression and body language - When did I ask Hawke to behave the way he does? 
3. Letters from Marlin and Old Barlin from Loitering - When did I  know them?
4. Lady Elegant, Worth and others. What are their relationship with Hawke? How do I know them?
5. Hawke Origins. Too little background info to make a solid player character. Why are so mystery about both Hawke and Amell side? Is Malcom the only son? How many Amell are there actually including the mage, Hero of Ferelden?

Edit: Hawke fate as the champion already known from the beginning. It's just a matter of how. But then again we know there is only one answer to it.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 31 mars 2011 - 07:16 .


#152
Dark83

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As many of us said at the time, as unbalanced and poor as the AD&D 2e system was in hindsight, having established rules and setting allows you to devote your resources towards other ends.

#153
Gatt9

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BobSmith101 wrote...

I could never really understand the fuss about FFVII. Maybe if I played it when it was released I probably would but I sort of went backwards from FFX my first one.

It's quite recently that Bioware have started doing the pre-gen character thing. KOTOR , well kind of but only ME and now DA2 have had true pre-gen characters and a lot of Japanese story pacing influences.


FF7 was a runaway hit,  followed by Parasite Eve,  both of which featured fine JRPG influences and well balanced cutscene vs gameplay systems.

The problem arose in that FF7 caused alot of people to think that it was representative of what an RPG is.  Rather than recognizing it as essentially RPGLite.  It seems a significant number of people decided that they wanted to be RPG players because they liked FF7.

This phenomenae became exacerbated by Bethseda.  Oblivion was a fairly standard Action-Adventure game,  but they marketed it as an RPG.  They then followed it up with a massive campaign to convince people Fallout 3 was also an RPG.  Bethseda actually hates RPGs,  as can be easily observed from watching them remove anything that even remotely resembles an RPG mechanic in favor of Action-Adventure or flat out Shooter.  Combine this with the FF7 crowd who thought they might be RPG players,  but hate RPGs,  and you get a muddled mess.

The mess is coming to fruition.  You've now got a polarized population,  RPG players here,  people who like FF7/Oblivion/Fallout/ME2 there but actually hate RPG mechanics.  Devs think the latter group is bigger and make their games to suit them.

The end result is Fable 3,  Mass Effect 2,  Dragon Age 2,  and Fallout 3.  All of them are hated by a very significant number of RPG players for being superficial at best,  Two of them were roasted by the people who hate RPGs but think they like them because they were crappy games.  Fallout 3 shipped 4.2 million units,  but by the NPD numbers sold only around half of them before dropping off the top 10. 

This isn't unexpected.  The same thing happened with the RTS craze around 00.  Studios decided that RTS was the future because they thought there were more sales in it,  switched properties to it left and right,  and studios died left and right.  They could not figure out that to take advantage of a newish type of gameplay they needed to design games around that type of gameplay,  not force-feed it into existing games just to have an acronym on the box.

Today,  ironically,  the best selling game series in history is...TB RPG (Pokemon). 

So FF7 touched off a potentially newish type of game that could've sold well,  studios misread it,  Bethseda exacerbated it,  and we're in a muddled mess with two distinctly different groups of fans facing off fighting to play the games they like.  One group wants Action-Adventure,  the other RPGs,  the problem is the first group doesn't want the conotation of Adventure Gamer,  they want RPG Player,  and they want all RPGs to become Action-Adventure for some strange reason.

The whole thing could be avoided if a couple studios would quit using RPG to refer to games that aren't.  If Oblivion,  ME2,  and Fallout 3 didn't have "RPG!!!!" on the box and Developers insisting Action-Adventure/Shooter is the new RPG,  none of this would be happening.

It's when they try to make it out like only Action-Adventure/Shooters are RPGs and that everyone must conform or there's something wrong with them that it becomes a problem.

(Mind you,  Bethseda goes way out of their way to antagonize RPG players.  Poo-pooing them on the forums,  in game characters to mock them.  Bioware's no longer any better with Laidlaw claiming "This is the evolution!".  It's a sure fire way to start a digital riot.)

Modifié par Gatt9, 31 mars 2011 - 07:39 .


#154
Sacred_Fantasy

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Dark83 wrote...

As many of us said at the time, as unbalanced and poor as the AD&D 2e system was in hindsight, having established rules and setting allows you to devote your resources towards other ends.

I stopped playing cRPG once AD&D 2e rules was introduced.  I Played TES Arena due of vast world exporation and sandbox. I played NW because of aurora toolset, create your own adventure campaign and Co-op. After Morrowind and NW 2, I thought I would completely abandoned single player RPG. So I went for MMORPG until a year after Origins was released. Played Oblivion at the same time as Origins. I'm surprised things differ so much. Origins isn't a perfect RPG but it's still great compare to the rest of it's generation.

#155
Sacred_Fantasy

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Gatt9 wrote...
FF7 was a runaway hit,  followed by Parasite Eve,  both of which featured fine JRPG influences and well balanced cutscene vs gameplay systems.

The problem arose in that FF7 caused alot of people to think that it was representative of what an RPG is.  Rather than recognizing it as essentially RPGLite.  It seems a significant number of people decided that they wanted to be RPG players because they liked FF7.

This phenomenae became exacerbated by Bethseda.  Oblivion was a fairly standard Action-Adventure game,  but they marketed it as an RPG.  They then followed it up with a massive campaign to convince people Fallout 3 was also an RPG.  Bethseda actually hates RPGs,  as can be easily observed from watching them remove anything that even remotely resembles an RPG mechanic in favor of Action-Adventure or flat out Shooter.  Combine this with the FF7 crowd who thought they might be RPG players,  but hate RPGs,  and you get a muddled mess.

The mess is coming to fruition.  You've now got a polarized population,  RPG players here,  people who like FF7/Oblivion/Fallout/ME2 there but actually hate RPG mechanics.  Devs think the latter group is bigger and make their games to suit them.

The end result is Fable 3,  Mass Effect 2,  Dragon Age 2,  and Fallout 3.  All of them are hated by a very significant number of RPG players for being superficial at best,  Two of them were roasted by the people who hate RPGs but think they like them because they were crappy games.  Fallout 3 shipped 4.2 million units,  but by the NPD numbers sold only around half of them before dropping off the top 10. 

This isn't unexpected.  The same thing happened with the RTS craze around 00.  Studios decided that RTS was the future because they thought there were more sales in it,  switched properties to it left and right,  and studios died left and right.  They could not figure out that to take advantage of a newish type of gameplay they needed to design games around that type of gameplay,  not force-feed it into existing games just to have an acronym on the box.

Today,  ironically,  the best selling game series in history is...TB RPG (Pokemon). 

So FF7 touched off a potentially newish type of game that could've sold well,  studios misread it,  Bethseda exacerbated it,  and we're in a muddled mess with two distinctly different groups of fans facing off fighting to play the games they like.  One group wants Action-Adventure,  the other RPGs,  the problem is the first group doesn't want the conotation of Adventure Gamer,  they want RPG Player,  and they want all RPGs to become Action-Adventure for some strange reason.

The whole thing could be avoided if a couple studios would quit using RPG to refer to games that aren't.  If Oblivion,  ME2,  and Fallout 3 didn't have "RPG!!!!" on the box and Developers insisting Action-Adventure/Shooter is the new RPG,  none of this would be happening.

It's when they try to make it out like only Action-Adventure/Shooters are RPGs and that everyone must conform or there's something wrong with them that it becomes a problem.

(Mind you,  Bethseda goes way out of their way to antagonize RPG players.  Poo-pooing them on the forums,  in game characters to mock them.  Bioware's no longer any better with Laidlaw claiming "This is the evolution!".  It's a sure fire way to start a digital riot.)

Thank you. I couldn't put it any better.

#156
Haexpane

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Fallout 3 is more of an RPG than Mass Effect 2 or Fable, A LOT more.

For instance, your skill at a weapon determines your accuracy = RPG mechanic in FO3

Mass Effect 2 REMOVED that mechanic and replaced it with ass shots.

#157
LeBurns

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Well I'm rather old, considering the group here.  I played D&D back in the 2nd gen.  I played the Gold Box D&D CRPG's.  Played the BG games.  All the ES games including I and II (my first semi-3D fantasy games).  So I guess I'm old school as I loved those games.

I really like games I can immerse myself into, which to me should be the primary component of a RPG.  If I can't pretend it's me then it's not a RPG IMO.  This can sometimes take (as SpongeBob would say) Imagination!

Again, it's just my opinion, but from what I've been reading here it just seems like a lot of people don't like to use their imagination anymore.  Flashy colors, quick moves and an awesome button and they are all happy.

However I do love other games also, the ME series for example.

#158
AlanC9

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LeBurns wrote...
Again, it's just my opinion, but from what I've been reading here it just seems like a lot of people don't like to use their imagination anymore. 


Or maybe they never did like using their imaginations, and only did it because they had to?

#159
AlanC9

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Haexpane wrote...

Fallout 3 is more of an RPG than Mass Effect 2 or Fable, A LOT more.

For instance, your skill at a weapon determines your accuracy = RPG mechanic in FO3

Mass Effect 2 REMOVED that mechanic and replaced it with ass shots.


Yep. And ME2 was much the better for it.

Removing stat-based aiming, that is. I'm neutral on the ass shots.

#160
TJSolo

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AlanC9 wrote...

LeBurns wrote...
Again, it's just my opinion, but from what I've been reading here it just seems like a lot of people don't like to use their imagination anymore. 


Or maybe they never did like using their imaginations, and only did it because they had to?


I would try to imagine someone that does not like using their imagination when playing video games but I already have the perfect image in my sig.

#161
AlanC9

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Yikes. I don't even want to know where you found that.

#162
A5ko

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Playing through Baldur's Gate with Easytutu again (15th something time maybe). Does that make me a Hardcore RPG fan or just sad..?

#163
Morgora

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Fhaileas wrote...

daemon1129 wrote...

I was just reading DA2 wikipedia page and saw something I didn't know.  The lead designer of DA:O resigned because he didn't like the direction DA2 is going (I'm sure its not news to any of you guys).

Dragon Age: Origins had three lead designers: Brent Knowles, Mike Laidlaw, and James Ohlen.



Actually, Ohlen left very very early on and Brent Knowles then took over -- DA:O is HIS baby. Laidlaw came on AFTER DA:O went gold on the PC as lead designer of the console ports.


Brent Knowles review of the DA2 demo
http://blog.brentkno.../#disqus_thread

#164
Morgora

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riccaborto wrote...

I am a GOOD GAMES fan... no matter "old" or "new" school...


Agreed :D

#165
orbit991

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Never been an rpg fan but I like games with detail and some depth. Origins had it in spades for me, it had faults but overall it was a memorable game as was Mass Effect. DA2 is not horrible but to me it borders mundane and average with very little care and detail put into it, really nothing to get me excited in the direction the franchise is going.

#166
rubydog1

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LeBurns wrote...

Again, it's just my opinion, but from what I've been reading here it just seems like a lot of people don't like to use their imagination anymore. 


So, now DA2 fans are unimaginative. That's a new one.

#167
Skellimancer

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riccaborto wrote...

I am a GOOD GAMES fan... no matter "old" or "new" school...


Fer sure!

Roll on GW2!

#168
Niten Ryu

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I'm old skool CRPG fan and hardcore gamer.

I wouldn't care much if Bioware want to move away from CRPG to action-adventure games... except for the fact that there are barely any developers left who create CRPG and especially good CRPGs. Adventure games, space sims, turn based strategy games, realistic flight simulators, ect ect are all dead (at least in AAA). I enjoyed all those genres, almost as much as I enjoy good CRPGs. They're gone and ain't coming back.

If Bioware want to be action-adventure (with light RPG elements) or FPS developer, they have a lot to learn from pure game and combat mechanics in those genres. They have to be at least equal with Drake's Fortune or God of War... or Diablo or World of Warcraft. In FPS they have to reach Modern Warfare or Splinter Cell (for example). This is outside Biowares area of expertise and definately not something that (new) players will forgive if they get it wrong. (problems in ME, ME2 and DA2 have been severe, but Bioware still have mostly CRPG players who are very forgiving for bad game and combat mechanics in general).

Bioware will write better stories, have superior RPG elements (as light as they might be from pure CRPG perspective) and characters in action-adventure games or FPS. If they get other elements right (either by poaching experienced FPS or action-adventure developers or ripping off latest and greatest games from those genres), they have bright future ahead of 'em. But CRPGs will still be (mostly) dead.

#169
Tommy6860

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Niten Ryu wrote...

I'm old skool CRPG fan and hardcore gamer.

I wouldn't care much if Bioware want to move away from CRPG to action-adventure games... except for the fact that there are barely any developers left who create CRPG and especially good CRPGs. Adventure games, space sims, turn based strategy games, realistic flight simulators, ect ect are all dead (at least in AAA). I enjoyed all those genres, almost as much as I enjoy good CRPGs. They're gone and ain't coming back.

If Bioware want to be action-adventure (with light RPG elements) or FPS developer, they have a lot to learn from pure game and combat mechanics in those genres. They have to be at least equal with Drake's Fortune or God of War... or Diablo or World of Warcraft. In FPS they have to reach Modern Warfare or Splinter Cell (for example). This is outside Biowares area of expertise and definately not something that (new) players will forgive if they get it wrong. (problems in ME, ME2 and DA2 have been severe, but Bioware still have mostly CRPG players who are very forgiving for bad game and combat mechanics in general).

Bioware will write better stories, have superior RPG elements (as light as they might be from pure CRPG perspective) and characters in action-adventure games or FPS. If they get other elements right (either by poaching experienced FPS or action-adventure developers or ripping off latest and greatest games from those genres), they have bright future ahead of 'em. But CRPGs will still be (mostly) dead.


Your statement on cRPGs being all but dead appears to be true in these times, and saddened I am that it appears that way. :-(

#170
abaris

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Niten Ryu wrote...

I'm old skool CRPG fan and hardcore gamer.

I wouldn't care much if Bioware want to move away from CRPG to action-adventure games... except for the fact that there are barely any developers left who create CRPG and especially good CRPGs. Adventure games, space sims, turn based strategy games, realistic flight simulators, ect ect are all dead (at least in AAA). I enjoyed all those genres, almost as much as I enjoy good CRPGs. They're gone and ain't coming back.


Funny, you've got almost the same taste in games as I have. And too true. Apart from the Flight Sims I would add realistic racing games that don't cater to the Arcade crowd. All gone for the sake of mainstream simplicism.

Has a bright side too. I don't have to invest half as much money to keep my rig up to date, since the last sims I really wanted came out in 2006.

#171
17thknight

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There's nothing "old school" abotu games like Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment, Fallout, etc.

They set the standard. They are the bar by which all other RPG's are measured in terms of story, choice, characters, everything of worth.

#172
Galad22

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17thknight wrote...

There's nothing "old school" abotu games like Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment, Fallout, etc.

They set the standard. They are the bar by which all other RPG's are measured in terms of story, choice, characters, everything of worth.


Indeed it is just sad that these new rpgs just don't compare well against those.

Though I must say that Vampire the Masquarade came very close, especially with fan patches that fixed bugs in it.

#173
88mphSlayer

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abaris wrote...

Niten Ryu wrote...

I'm old skool CRPG fan and hardcore gamer.

I wouldn't care much if Bioware want to move away from CRPG to action-adventure games... except for the fact that there are barely any developers left who create CRPG and especially good CRPGs. Adventure games, space sims, turn based strategy games, realistic flight simulators, ect ect are all dead (at least in AAA). I enjoyed all those genres, almost as much as I enjoy good CRPGs. They're gone and ain't coming back.


Funny, you've got almost the same taste in games as I have. And too true. Apart from the Flight Sims I would add realistic racing games that don't cater to the Arcade crowd. All gone for the sake of mainstream simplicism.

Has a bright side too. I don't have to invest half as much money to keep my rig up to date, since the last sims I really wanted came out in 2006.


ehm... rfactor and iracing anybody?

#174
17thknight

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Galad22 wrote...

Indeed it is just sad that these new rpgs just don't compare well against those.

Though I must say that Vampire the Masquarade came very close, especially with fan patches that fixed bugs in it.


Yup, that was definitely a fantastic RPG, even with its bugs and limitations. Once it was fully patched, it was truly beautiful, and a lot of fun. (Woot, Malkavians!) The Witcher 2 seems as though it's going in the right direction (your choices early in the game, without you even realizing it, will open up or permanently close off vast portions of the game). Developers need to take note.

Modifié par 17thknight, 02 avril 2011 - 02:32 .


#175
abaris

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88mphSlayer wrote...

ehm... rfactor and iracing anybody?


But how did rfactor start out? It was a niche product. Still is. Major companies don't touch things like that anymore.