33 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Gremlin]

I've realized that in this thread http://social.biowar...18581/7#6855326 but it really is a spoilerific topic.
Significance of main character is what felt wrong about DA2. Remove Warden from DAO - and what happens? You can see it in Darkspawn Chronicles. Archdemon wins, Ferelden is swallowed by the Blight. Last Grey Warden Alistair died as he lived -  as a groundhog.
Now remove Hawke from DA2... And? What Hawke did? Anders blew up the Chantry. Meredith opressed mages. Without Hawke nothing changes. God, Hawke can't even change what people think of her - she's considered a templar supported by mages even if  she's a blood mage, who's nearly at war with Meredith.

That's what I dislike, what felt wrong in DA2: YOU, your character, Hawke, does not matter at all. You can remove her and nothing significant will change.

 Anyone feels same?

Modifié par Lord Gremlin, 30 mars 2011 - 07:55 .

[Mnemnosyne]

Without Hawke, Anders would have been killed or captured by the Templars when he went to see Karl.

Since Anders would be dead or tranquil, Varric and Bertrand would never get the maps from him.  The deep roads expedition would likely have been a failure, and the idol never would have been recovered.

Without the idol, Meredith wouldn't have gone as far as she did - she would have been more restrained, slower, wouldn't have had so much anger against her, so even if Anders was still around, which he wouldn't have been, blowing up the chantry would have been meaningless.  There would have been no mage rebellion.

Hawke was also responsible for dealing with the Qunari issue, since without her presence Sister Petrice would have gotten exactly what she wanted and provoked a fight with the Qunari earlier.  Possibly even leading to the Qunari sending reinforcements from Par Vollen.

[AlexXIV]

Koyasha wrote...

Without Hawke, Anders would have been killed or captured by the Templars when he went to see Karl.

Since Anders would be dead or tranquil, Varric and Bertrand would never get the maps from him.  The deep roads expedition would likely have been a failure, and the idol never would have been recovered.

Without the idol, Meredith wouldn't have gone as far as she did - she would have been more restrained, slower, wouldn't have had so much anger against her, so even if Anders was still around, which he wouldn't have been, blowing up the chantry would have been meaningless.  There would have been no mage rebellion.

Hawke was also responsible for dealing with the Qunari issue, since without her presence Sister Petrice would have gotten exactly what she wanted and provoked a fight with the Qunari earlier.  Possibly even leading to the Qunari sending reinforcements from Par Vollen.

Speculation. All of it. Who is to say Anders would have walked into the trap alone or could not have dealt with it? Who is to say the idol was an important factor? Anders didn't blow the Chantry up because of the idol and Meredith did not call the Right of Annullment because of the idol. Unless you have proof which you don't. The mage rebellion happens all across Thedas, it is not a Kirkwall only thing. The Qunari were not there to start a war, they were there for their book. It was never the plan of the Arishok to 'conquer' Kirkwall. As you can see as he leaves Kirkwall if he gets the book and the thief.

[Mnemnosyne]

If we're going by 'someone else will go ahead and do what the main character did' then sure, Anders wouldn't have gotten caught and etc. etc.

It's pretty clear the idol was responsible for Meredith going as far as she did - in the beginning she is more oppressive and doing things beyond Chantry law, but she's not doing so much that she's causing widespread questioning of her sanity. Except for initiate rumors and Ser Thrask (who had a mage daughter, mind you) the Templars seem to support Meredith. But later in the game you have even Cullen questioning her.

As for the Qunari, they wouldn't have gotten their book if not for Hawke. Isabela would have either gotten caught by Hayder and taken to Castillon, or she would have escaped with the book. And what the Arishok's intentions were originally are irrelevant, considering Petrice's provocations would have been vastly more successful. Again, unless we assume that someone else will do what the main character did. Of course, we could assume that about the main character of any game, and call them irrelevant, too.

[AlexXIV]

Koyasha wrote...

If we're going by 'someone else will go ahead and do what the main character did' then sure, Anders wouldn't have gotten caught and etc. etc.

It's pretty clear the idol was responsible for Meredith going as far as she did - in the beginning she is more oppressive and doing things beyond Chantry law, but she's not doing so much that she's causing widespread questioning of her sanity. Except for initiate rumors and Ser Thrask (who had a mage daughter, mind you) the Templars seem to support Meredith. But later in the game you have even Cullen questioning her.

As for the Qunari, they wouldn't have gotten their book if not for Hawke. Isabela would have either gotten caught by Hayder and taken to Castillon, or she would have escaped with the book. And what the Arishok's intentions were originally are irrelevant, considering Petrice's provocations would have been vastly more successful. Again, unless we assume that someone else will do what the main character did. Of course, we could assume that about the main character of any game, and call them irrelevant, too.

You couldn't be more wrong.

The templars questioning Meredith does not matter at all. When she calls the Right of Annullment all templars, even Cullen, stand by her. There is nobody questioning her leadership. The only thing the idol was good for is the last boss fight, nothing more and nothing less. And we assume that Meredith's death has anything to do with the mage rebellion. Meredith in Act3 is the same as in Act2 up to the point where she tries to kill Hawke. Only then Cullen turns against her. If you don't have high enough rivalry with Isabella she disappears with the book. The Qunari don't get it, and Hawke is forced to kill the Arishok and all Qunari. Right before the Templars storm in. I am pretty sure the templars could have handled the Qunari as well. After all Kirkwall does seem to have next to unlimited supply of templars as we saw in Act3, and the Qunari only were a few hundrets.

The Warden was different. It was the Warden's choice to use the treaties. The player did not have a choice there but in the story the Warden does. The Warden also decides to go for the Urn, and whatever they do to collect the armies. Hawke isn't relevant for anything. Hawke gets asked to help and if he/she doesn't then people solve their problems alone.

[da0Xeffect2]

AlexXIV wrote...

Koyasha wrote...

If we're going by 'someone else will go ahead and do what the main character did' then sure, Anders wouldn't have gotten caught and etc. etc.

It's pretty clear the idol was responsible for Meredith going as far as she did - in the beginning she is more oppressive and doing things beyond Chantry law, but she's not doing so much that she's causing widespread questioning of her sanity. Except for initiate rumors and Ser Thrask (who had a mage daughter, mind you) the Templars seem to support Meredith. But later in the game you have even Cullen questioning her.

As for the Qunari, they wouldn't have gotten their book if not for Hawke. Isabela would have either gotten caught by Hayder and taken to Castillon, or she would have escaped with the book. And what the Arishok's intentions were originally are irrelevant, considering Petrice's provocations would have been vastly more successful. Again, unless we assume that someone else will do what the main character did. Of course, we could assume that about the main character of any game, and call them irrelevant, too.

You couldn't be more wrong.

The templars questioning Meredith does not matter at all. When she calls the Right of Annullment all templars, even Cullen, stand by her. There is nobody questioning her leadership. The only thing the idol was good for is the last boss fight, nothing more and nothing less. And we assume that Meredith's death has anything to do with the mage rebellion. Meredith in Act3 is the same as in Act2 up to the point where she tries to kill Hawke. Only then Cullen turns against her. If you don't have high enough rivalry with Isabella she disappears with the book. The Qunari don't get it, and Hawke is forced to kill the Arishok and all Qunari. Right before the Templars storm in. I am pretty sure the templars could have handled the Qunari as well. After all Kirkwall does seem to have next to unlimited supply of templars as we saw in Act3, and the Qunari only were a few hundrets.

The Warden was different. It was the Warden's choice to use the treaties. The player did not have a choice there but in the story the Warden does. The Warden also decides to go for the Urn, and whatever they do to collect the armies. Hawke isn't relevant for anything. Hawke gets asked to help and if he/she doesn't then people solve their problems alone.

Uh, what? The Warden could choose not to use the treaties? I suppose he could also not choose to pick a king/queen or fight the archdemon as well? You had to use the treaties for advancement of the game.

Anyway, Hawke is just as significant in this game as the Warden in DA:O. No Hawke, and things wouldn't have gone down like they did.
Aveline is probably dead
no Flemeth getting involved
dragons destroying mines
poorly funded Deep Roads Expeditions that wouldn't get far because of too many dangerous passageways for the dwarves to get through
Anders is discovered by templars and isn't motivated by Hawke
Isabella gone or dead with the book
Qunari remain in Kirkwall and possibly try to take over
Quentin still being crazy trying to find his perfect face
etc....

[AlexXIV]

Aveline is probably dead

Which would be a shame but not plotrelevant.

no Flemeth getting involved

Which would be a shame but not plotrelevant.

dragons destroying mines

And?

poorly funded Deep Roads Expeditions that wouldn't get far because of too many dangerous passageways for the dwarves to get through

The only thing that would have happened that they would not have picked up the idol. Things could have gone almost same way without the idol though. Meredith was a fanatic and tensions between mages and templars were there before she had the idol.

Anders is discovered by templars and isn't motivated by Hawke

How is Anders motivated by Hawke? You can ignore him completely and Hawke doesn't need to be a mage either.

Isabella gone or dead with the book

She wouldn't be dead. Even handing her to the Qunari she escapes, and with the books no less.

Qunari remain in Kirkwall and possibly try to take over

So basically they do the same thing as they did when Hawke failed to appease them.

Quentin still being crazy trying to find his perfect face

Well good thing Hawke killed him, but if Hawke didn't come to Kirkwall in the first place, Hawke's mom could still be alive.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 30 mars 2011 - 09:33 .

[Mnemnosyne]

My point on the templars questioning Meredith is primarily to illustrate the point that after she got the idol, she started to go so far out of normal bounds that even the templars were having doubts about her, not suggesting they would have actually gone against her at that point. If even the templars are having doubts about her, it illustrates how everyone else perceives her, and exactly why there were so many mages ready to revolt.

Keep in mind that in Act 3, there's even templars revolting and joining Ser Thrask and Grace. Which is another point where Hawke is likely important - without her, Ser Karras and his men would have killed all the mages in that cave, so Grace wouldn't be around to lead her revolt. So, not only would the mages have less cause to revolt since Meredith would be slightly more reasonable, but they wouldn't have one of the primary instigators behind the revolt.

The overall mage rebellion throughout Thedas was clearly started with the events of the Kirkwall circle, so if the mages there never revolted, the others throughout Thedas also would not have.

[da0Xeffect2]

AlexXIV wrote...


Aveline is probably dead

Which would be a shame but not plotrelevant.

no Flemeth getting involved

Which would be a shame but not plotrelevant.

dragons destroying mines

And?

poorly funded Deep Roads Expeditions that wouldn't get far because of too many dangerous passageways for the dwarves to get through

The only thing that would have happened that they would not have picked up the idol. Things could have gone almost same way without the idol though. Meredith was a fanatic and tensions between mages and templars were there before she had the idol.

Anders is discovered by templars and isn't motivated by Hawke

How is Anders motivated by Hawke? You can ignore him completely and Hawke doesn't need to be a mage either.

Isabella gone or dead with the book

She wouldn't be dead. Even handing her to the Qunari she escapes, and with the books no less.

Qunari remain in Kirkwall and possibly try to take over

So basically they do the same thing as they did when Hawke failed to appease them.

Quentin still being crazy trying to find his perfect face

Well good thing Hawke killed him, but if Hawke didn't come to Kirkwall in the first place, Hawke's mom could still be alive.

 
You seem to be making assumptions just as you claim others to be. It is implied that the idol is the reason for Meredith's unhinging which would not have been gathered if not for Hawke. Anders would still be in hiding because no one would help him. No Hawke, no Anders running about Kirkwall. Aveline wouldn't be the captain and Kirkwall would still be run by Jevin.

[AlexXIV]

Well whatever Hawke does or says, Thrask still helps the mages and ends the same way. There is nothing Hawke can do or not do that changes the events. If Grace had died then someone else would take her place. She is not really important other than to capture Hawke's sibling or companion so you get a rescue quest. Neither Thrask nor Grace change their minds because of Hawke. Nobody does actually.

That's the point why Hawke seems unimportant. There are only 2 important events. The Qunari uprise and the templar vs mages conflict. And Hawke could not really influence any of them. The NPCs treat Hawke like an errant boy/girl, but nobody seems to listen to her/him.

Then add to that the (hi)story of fail. Hawke wants to make a fortune to save the family. He/she succeeds at stumbling un a pot of gold, but fails to keep the family save. Hawke gets tasked to rescue the Vicounts son. He dies. Hawke gets tasked to solve the Qunari problem, Isabella cheats on Hawke and thus Hawke fails to stop the Qunari uprise. Hawke gets called to Orsino to settle the argument between Meredith and Orsino. The Chantry blows up and the mediation fails.

Whatever Hawke does, it seems to go wrong at a point. I mean I don't mind the 'even heroes can lose' approach. But if every important Quest fails then you don't even feel heroic or important. We don't even get told how the seekers figured that Hawke was behind all this. We just get told they do think that, for whatever reason. Obviously the surviving templars must lie alot to spread rumors of Hawke being the key person.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 30 mars 2011 - 10:00 .

[AlexXIV]

da0Xeffect2 wrote...
You seem to be making assumptions just as you claim others to be. It is implied that the idol is the reason for Meredith's unhinging which would not have been gathered if not for Hawke. Anders would still be in hiding because no one would help him. No Hawke, no Anders running about Kirkwall. Aveline wouldn't be the captain and Kirkwall would still be run by Jevin.

Well the claim of the OP is that Hawke is not significant. And you people disagree but fail to prove it. If you can assume things, then so can I. I don't know of any implication that the idol is what made Meredith call the Right of Annullment. I rather think it was the Grand Cleric's death and the Chantry being blown up. And if it was the influence of the idol only, then why did Cullen stand with her? Was he also influenced? Meredith was surely not the first who called for the Right and it is not always because of some idol.

And seeing that whatever you do, Hawke cannot get rid of Anders or stop him I think it is save to assume he succeeds anyway. Any of Anders quests, if you don't help him he is doing it alone. So how do you figure he needs Hawke's help for anything?

[Mnemnosyne]

It's not about her calling the rite of annulment. It's about whether her actions over the years leading up to that point would have caused enough unrest to prompt the mage uprising that Anders blew up the church in order to stop any potential peaceful resolution to.

When Hawke arrives in Kirkwall, Meredith is tougher on the mages than anywhere else and already breaking chantry law...but she isn't doing it so much or so openly that there is significant open opposition to her.

Over the years that follow, after the idol comes into the picture, she becomes increasingly unhinged and begins squeezing the mages so hard that she can't help but cause more and more of them to become desperate and do anything they can to escape her influence.

On top of that is added the fact that after the Viscount's death, she takes over the city directly, thus upsetting nobles and the general populace, many of whom, due to this, become more sympathetic toward the mages. Without the hope of this popular support, mages are less likely to revolt.

And as for Anders, there really is nothing to suggest that he would not be caught in the trap when Karl meets him at the Chantry. Every indication we get in game suggests that he would have fallen for that trap. He's cautious when approaching but as he says when you meet him, he hasn't seen any templars, so it's well-established that the templars managed to hide very effectively until they spring their trap.

[AlexXIV]

I find it hard to believe that Anders falls for the same trick twice. I mean it's basically the same trap from Awakenings. Just he always happens to have someone with him who can walk into a trap and fight their way out. I mean in Awakings if you refuse to help him he doesn't go there alone either.

Also I don't know about the idol thing you guys keep mentioning. It is supposed to be obvious that the idol is what caused the mages to rebel? Likely the idol had a negative effect on Meredith. But who's to say if it could not have happened without the idol? Maybe not so soon, but eventually. Also we know even from DA:O that the mages are thinking about revolution, or at least change. It would have happened anyway. Probably to do with the Blight ending so quickly, so people forgot why exactly mages are so dangerous. Everytime a Blight rages across Thedas and probably kills half the population people turn to the Chantry and their teaching. But not this time.

[TeamRyan]

AlexXIV wrote...

da0Xeffect2 wrote...
You seem to be making assumptions just as you claim others to be. It is implied that the idol is the reason for Meredith's unhinging which would not have been gathered if not for Hawke. Anders would still be in hiding because no one would help him. No Hawke, no Anders running about Kirkwall. Aveline wouldn't be the captain and Kirkwall would still be run by Jevin.

Well the claim of the OP is that Hawke is not significant. And you people disagree but fail to prove it. If you can assume things, then so can I. I don't know of any implication that the idol is what made Meredith call the Right of Annullment. I rather think it was the Grand Cleric's death and the Chantry being blown up. And if it was the influence of the idol only, then why did Cullen stand with her? Was he also influenced? Meredith was surely not the first who called for the Right and it is not always because of some idol.

And seeing that whatever you do, Hawke cannot get rid of Anders or stop him I think it is save to assume he succeeds anyway. Any of Anders quests, if you don't help him he is doing it alone. So how do you figure he needs Hawke's help for anything?

I believe hawke had a definite affect on the outcome of the qunari uprising. Essentially if he wasn't there it is not likely that they would have retaken the keep, and everyone would be speaking Qunari. And your probably going to say meredith would have retaken the keep by herself, but you really don't know that, and never will until they make a Dragon Age 2: Qunari Chronicles.

[AlexXIV]

TeamRyan wrote...
I believe hawke had a definite affect on the outcome of the qunari uprising. Essentially if he wasn't there it is not likely that they would have retaken the keep, and everyone would be speaking Qunari. And your probably going to say meredith would have retaken the keep by herself, but you really don't know that, and never will until they make a Dragon Age 2: Qunari Chronicles.

Well what the game fails to make is a definitive, undebatable point why Hawke is important. There are only ifs and maybe's. Nobody is doubting that the Warden stopped the blight almost singlehandedly. But all we know about Hawke is that he/she has been there and could have influence. Or not. I would like to have seen at least one definite point in Act2 or 3 where Hawke is the only one who can save Kirkwall. But it never looks like it. For me anyway.

I love the credit music from DA:O. 'I am the one' from Inon Zur. And that's what I want from an RPG like this. That's why I am playing. A hero that is the one, and only one who could do the impossible. I don't really like a 'guy/girl next door' protagonist who seems to be mostly helpless and unwittingly involved in things he/she does not even understand.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 30 mars 2011 - 10:34 .

[TeamRyan]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well what the game fails to make is a definitive, undebatable point why Hawke is important. There are only ifs and maybe's. Nobody is doubting that the Warden stopped the blight almost singlehandedly. But all we know about Hawke is that he/she has been there and could have influence. Or not. I would like to have seen at least one definite point in Act2 or 3 where Hawke is the only one who can save Kirkwall. But it never looks like it. For me anyway.

I love the credit music from DA:O. 'I am the one' from Inon Zur. And that's what I want from an RPG like this. That why I am playing. A hero that is the one, and only one who could do the impossible. I don't really like a 'guy/girl next door' protagonist who seems to be mostly helpless and unwittingly involved in thigns he/she does not even understand.

I guess that is fair and I can't really argue against someone wanting to be told explicitly "you are the only person who can ever get this done" every five minutes.

But also at the same time Origins was awesome in telling you numerous times that you are the only one who could get this done, It also kind of lampshaded that idea quite a bit when you can play through the game as 6 different people who all could have stopped the blight if Duncan didn't miss/skip them.

Modifié par TeamRyan, 30 mars 2011 - 10:42 .

[AlexXIV]

TeamRyan wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well what the game fails to make is a definitive, undebatable point why Hawke is important. There are only ifs and maybe's. Nobody is doubting that the Warden stopped the blight almost singlehandedly. But all we know about Hawke is that he/she has been there and could have influence. Or not. I would like to have seen at least one definite point in Act2 or 3 where Hawke is the only one who can save Kirkwall. But it never looks like it. For me anyway.

I love the credit music from DA:O. 'I am the one' from Inon Zur. And that's what I want from an RPG like this. That why I am playing. A hero that is the one, and only one who could do the impossible. I don't really like a 'guy/girl next door' protagonist who seems to be mostly helpless and unwittingly involved in thigns he/she does not even understand.

I guess that is fair and I can't really argue against someone wanting to be told explicitly "you are the only person who can ever get this done" every five minutes.

But also at the same time Origins was awesome in telling you numerous times that you are the only one who could get this done, It also kind of lampshaded that idea quite a bit when you can play through the game as 6 different people who all could have stopped the blight if Duncan didn't miss/skip them.

Well I don't want anyone tell me that I am important, I want to know it. And certainly not every 5 minutes, once in the whole game would have been about enough.

In DA:O there is only one Warden, and he/she is special. You can pick different Origins but only one is 'The One'. The others die mostly I think.

Actually I tend to think Bioware would have done better to bring the Warden to DA2 instead of Hawke. It would be easier to deal with all the failing if your hero had already accomplished all these things from DA:O and DA:A. Also the cameos would have been better and you could actually say you are the one who caused all this. Because it is the Warden who brings Anders and Justice together.

After playing DA2 I don't really understand why it had to be Hawke and family. Only for the family deaths I guess.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 30 mars 2011 - 10:51 .

[Mnemnosyne]

It is a fair point that the game doesn't make an absolute point that shows without question why Hawke is important. Every point where Hawke did something could be debated to have been accomplished whether she was there or not, maybe.

However, I don't really have a problem with that myself - I can see where she is important, and frankly even if she wasn't, I'm glad it wasn't a Grand Quest story. In the end, if all that happened and the entire story is purely about Hawke's life and not about Hawke being important to others, it's still a good story, and I personally was glad to see a game that seems to be more about the main character living their life than it is about her trying to accomplish some grand feat.

The point about there being six different people that could have stopped the Blight is also somewhat amusing and fair. In fact it seems like any reasonably motivated Grey Warden that survived could have stopped the Blight. If Daveth had survived the Joining, he probably would have stopped the Blight, for instance.

Edit: It couldn't be the Warden specifically because of the different possible origins.  They would have had to have additional voices for the elf and dwarf warden, or go with unvoiced main character (which normally I would support, but frankly I think in DA2 they actually did so well with the voiced main character that they justified everything that is required for that).

Modifié par Koyasha, 30 mars 2011 - 11:01 .

[AlexXIV]

I like Hawke's female voice actress. And I don't care about slang. It's all english to me. I don't even know what the different accents are supposed to be about. We already suspend our belief that everyone is talking the same language in thedas despite cultural differences etc. The point that making a VO for the Warden is more difficult than for Hawke escapes me a bit, since I could have the female Hawke voice for any of my Wardens. I guess there are quite a number of people who would feel bothered, but oh well. I can only speak for myself.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 30 mars 2011 - 11:17 .

[TeamRyan]

Next game could solve that problem by having every possible character start as a orphan or slave from birth in whatever country they please, leading to mono accents/voices for all possible races you can play as.

Not really feeling the orphan part but I kind of adore the slave idea.

[Aloradus]

None - I do not know how anyone at Bioware thought this was a good idea from the start.

Why not make Hawke central in trying to free the Mages or trying to keep them put. They could have easily forced the same ending. Just make it so Hawke has some skin in the game. I would have enjoyed starting a rebellion, or even fighting to stop one and failing.

However, the next story appears to need Hawke innocent & righteous. If that’s the case it could have been prudent to make Hawke a side companion the player manipulates because they need his muscle.

My two cents...

I'd also argue that his lack of purpose will affects his value next round... 'He was there when it all went down.' So what? Why would mages listen to him, or Templars? Hawke didn’t try to free the mages; he just shows up and saves a few lives at the end... But, its to early to judge that the next one could be great.

[Foolsfolly]

Aloradus wrote...

None - I do not know how anyone at Bioware thought this was a good idea from the start.

Why not make Hawke central in trying to free the Mages or trying to keep them put. They could have easily forced the same ending. Just make it so Hawke has some skin in the game. I would have enjoyed starting a rebellion, or even fighting to stop one and failing.

However, the next story appears to need Hawke innocent & righteous. If that’s the case it could have been prudent to make Hawke a side companion the player manipulates because they need his muscle.

My two cents...

I'd also argue that his lack of purpose will affects his value next round... 'He was there when it all went down.' So what? Why would mages listen to him, or Templars? Hawke didn’t try to free the mages; he just shows up and saves a few lives at the end... But, its to early to judge that the next one could be great.

Right after they interrogated Varric they pulled in another character and threw him into a chair.

"You were there from the beginning. You were there in the Gallows when everything went down! Now I just have one question," Cassandra hissed. "Where, is Bodahn Feddic?"

"Enchantment?"

"...."


I mean, if Hawke didn't start the war or didn't try to stop the war...well a bunch of people were there when it started. Knight-Captain Cullen's the highest ranked survivor of the whole thing why not question him?

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 31 mars 2011 - 01:26 .

[MKDAWUSS]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

I've realized that in this thread http://social.biowar...18581/7#6855326 but it really is a spoilerific topic.
Significance of main character is what felt wrong about DA2. Remove Warden from DAO - and what happens? You can see it in Darkspawn Chronicles. Archdemon wins, Ferelden is swallowed by the Blight. Last Grey Warden Alistair died as he lived -  as a groundhog.
Now remove Hawke from DA2... And? What Hawke did? Anders blew up the Chantry. Meredith opressed mages. Without Hawke nothing changes. God, Hawke can't even change what people think of her - she's considered a templar supported by mages even if  she's a blood mage, who's nearly at war with Meredith.

That's what I dislike, what felt wrong in DA2: YOU, your character, Hawke, does not matter at all. You can remove her and nothing significant will change.

 Anyone feels same?

You're not alone in that feeling. I did think that the Warden was far more important to DAO than Hawke was to DA2. Sure, you could take the Warden out of DAO, but then it's more a case of the Warden's role being relegated to Alistair who FAI&P does the same thing. Take Hawke away and you don't even have to relegate his role. Like you said, Aveline could have taken Flemeth's amulet to Sundermount, Varric could have persuaded Anders to join in Bartrand's expedition (they still needed the maps), Meredith and Orsino could have pushed back the Qunari (he never got what he was looking for), Meredith still would have acquired the idol, Orsino still would have been corresponding with his contacts, Anders would have blown up the Chantry, Merrill would have attempted to reconstruct an Eluvian, and the Templars still would have wiped out the Circle.

[TeamRyan]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

I've realized that in this thread http://social.biowar...18581/7#6855326 but it really is a spoilerific topic.
Significance of main character is what felt wrong about DA2. Remove Warden from DAO - and what happens? You can see it in Darkspawn Chronicles. Archdemon wins, Ferelden is swallowed by the Blight. Last Grey Warden Alistair died as he lived -  as a groundhog.
Now remove Hawke from DA2... And? What Hawke did? Anders blew up the Chantry. Meredith opressed mages. Without Hawke nothing changes. God, Hawke can't even change what people think of her - she's considered a templar supported by mages even if  she's a blood mage, who's nearly at war with Meredith.

That's what I dislike, what felt wrong in DA2: YOU, your character, Hawke, does not matter at all. You can remove her and nothing significant will change.

 Anyone feels same?

You're not alone in that feeling. I did think that the Warden was far more important to DAO than Hawke was to DA2. Sure, you could take the Warden out of DAO, but then it's more a case of the Warden's role being relegated to Alistair who FAI&P does the same thing. Take Hawke away and you don't even have to relegate his role. Like you said, Aveline could have taken Flemeth's amulet to Sundermount, Varric could have persuaded Anders to join in Bartrand's expedition (they still needed the maps), Meredith and Orsino could have pushed back the Qunari (he never got what he was looking for), Meredith still would have acquired the idol, Orsino still would have been corresponding with his contacts, Anders would have blown up the Chantry, Merrill would have attempted to reconstruct an Eluvian, and the Templars still would have wiped out the Circle.

I could do the same thing and make just as many suppositions... check it.

Aveline gets crushed by darkspawn because she is by herself with an ineffective wesley cursed with the blight. She doesn't make it to the ogre to even gain flemeths attention.

Varric and Anders die at the hand of the profane and rock wraith in the deep roads.

Meredith and Orsino die at each others hands, Orsino takes the Qunari invasion as a chance to escape the circle while the templars are busy fighting the Qunari. Meredith gets slaughtered by the Arishok.

Anders doesn't get to blow up the chantry because the Qunari beat him to it. and consequently catch him and put him in chains and cut out his tongue.

Merril never leaves camp becomes possesed by the pride demon, slaughters her camp and moves on.

Freemarchers mount an offensive to purge the Qunari from thier lands, Qunari organize a retaliation to maintain it, the chantry gets involved and a new exalted march happens.

[highcastle]

It's difficult if not impossible to say what would have happened without Hawke. We know he defeated the Arishok, found the lyrium idol, and instigated the mage rebellions (either by siding with them or continuing their oppression). These are the events that do not change. Would war still have broken out without him? I don't know. There are too many variables involved.

The main character's important. He's there at the start of a big event. His actions are the indirect cause for the outbreak of global war. I think what bothers more people is that he's not this untouchable winner. He fails quite a few times along the way. Depending on his goals, he may even fail in the endgame. My Hawke wanted to become viscount and support the mages officially. The Chantry blowing up sort of nixed that. It doesn't make him less significant, but I think people find failure or Pyrrhic victories less satisfying. Fair enough, but it's a change from the usual save-the-world-everybody-loves-you ending that I really like it.