23 réponses à ce sujet

[dfscott]

 As a disclaimer, let me say that I really like the RP part of RPGs.  When I create a character, I spend forever on the appearance, always have a reason behind any actions I take, and try to stay true to my character, even if it costs me from a meta-gaming perspective.

That said, it's bad enough that my mage runs around with a magic staff all the time in a city where loose mages are illegal (and kudos to the mod-maker that finally let me hide it).  But it seems that the further I get into the game, the harder it is to suspend my disbelief that my mage hasn't been locked up yet.

When I started out in Kirkwall, I have some non-descript pants and jacket that I got from the Smugglers, and it fits the character perfectly.  But the first new armor looks like I just stepped off the set of LOTR -- it just screams: "MAGE ROBE!"  I even took to wearing my "house clothes" in town during the day to provide a semblance of discretion.

And I was able to handwave over the first fight that gets the guard to fetch your uncle -- maybe he didn't notice in the confusion.  But it really broke the immersion for me when I went to Wilmod's camp.  I'm standing there right next to the Knight-commander of the Templars in my mage robe, with my magic staff, casting spells like crazy.  And afterwards, he talks about "all mages must be watched" and I make some lame comment about "I have friends that are mages" comment.  And then we go on as if it's all normal.   

Remember Ser Wesley in the intro?  He's half dead and comes from a much more mage-tolerant area, and he still freaks about when he realizes that Bethany is a mage.  

At least some sort of acknowledgement that he realizes and is going to let me off would be nice.  Something like, "If I didn't know better, I would've sworn that I saw you casting spells, but it must have been that demon playing tricks with my mind.  It would be a pity it you were a mage, since I'd have to arrest you even through you saved my life."  As a last resort, they could've given us an option to use Idunna's Jedi Mind Tricks -- "these are not the mages you're looking for".

So, did (or does) this bug anyone else?  I know it's just a game and convo trees, but come on -- it's a RPG, not an action game.  Don't give me RP choices if the NPCs aren't going to react to them.  The inconguity in the story was so jarring that I had to take a break and switch chars until I could figure out a way to reconcile it.

Modifié par dfscott, 30 mars 2011 - 08:42 .

[Lithuasil]

It bothered me enough to write fanfiction about it

Atleast they should change that, for the third installment that's likely all about mage/templar war.

[Asdara]

Short answer: yes, it does bug me.

Longer answer: I cannot deceive myself into thinking the writers were oblivious to this - when the Hawke in the opening CG is a mage anyway! It's not like they tacked on the "be a mage" option as an afterthought, in other words.

There should be content that makes us hide in the city - or work out some shady deal (like when we worked for our way in, the people we worked for acknowledged that they would have to hide a mage, but that it was going to be worked out).

Ok, the Champion of Kirkwall gets a free pass, sure, even Meredith will point it out that your standing is the only thing keeping her off your back (or your friend's whatever the case may be), but during that Act2 part where we are independent but not important (just wealthy) there should be some conflict walking around as a mage.

Also, the dialog being "clueless" only works if you haven't done something obviously magical in front of that person (staffs could be a popular fashion choice for all we know, maybe they aren't the dead give away we think they are... /sigh). If you have, then there has to be some other mitigating factor brought up.

[TheAwesomologist]

Bugged me with my first mage play through. Especially that very first fight in the Gallows in front the guards while I kill my own countrymen. With Fire.
Of course after I played a Warrior I'll never go back to playing a Mage anyways, but yeah considering it isn't resolved until the end of Act 2, the whole "not so good at hiding the fact that I'm an apostate on the loose" totally broke my immersion and suspension of disbelief.

[Icy Magebane]

Yeah I had this problem to... it broke immersion a couple times, but eventually I just decided to ignore the problem. I mean, it's just too absurd that nobody cares that some penniless Ferelden refugee is out there slinging spells in the middle of town. In front of civilians and Templars, night and day, no less! A huge oversight... but it would have been too expensive to make this more realistic so...  maybe next time.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 30 mars 2011 - 08:59 .

[Lord Gremlin]

Yes, that was a huge problem for me too. It regularly broke immersion in Act 1 and 2 and it ruined the game in Act 3.

[Dark-sider77]

I cant say anything to help you out in Acts one or two. However, by Act 3 the Templars know hawke is a mage. I played as a warrior and some of the templars and chantry members occasionaly mentioned that they know the Champion has apostate friends, the templars just choose to ignore them because the common folk love the Champion so much.

For example, if you bring Anders when you talk to Meridith at the end of her first act 3 quest he will flip out at the Knight Commander (if you just accept payment and try to leave at least). At that point, Meridith will make it very clear that she knows exactly what Anders is, but allows him to remain apostate.

Another time this is mentioned is if you tell the Grand Cleric you know an apostate is plotting against the chantry after refusing to help Anders sneak in during Justice. She will say she knows that the Champion is friends with apostates. If Anders is there Elthena will not call him out directly, but she seems to knows he is the one Hawke is talking about.

[kyles3]

At the end of the day, mage is one of three classes. Making a mage playthrough in DA2 100% consistent from a storyline perspective would have required significantly more resources devoted to providing content that some players will never even see. It's just not going to happen with the class system that's in place.

Modifié par kyles3, 30 mars 2011 - 09:56 .

[Asdara]

kyles3 wrote...

At the end of the day, mage is one of three classes. Making a mage playthrough in DA2 100% consistent from a storyline perspective would have required significantly more resources devoted to providing content that some players will never even see. It's just not going to happen with the class system that's in place.

Then don't just make it apply to mage class, but any group the Champion is in with an apostate.  That's, what, 85% of the time easily if you don't rely on items for health?  

Cost is only an excuse for so much.  There are ways to make ideas economical and still put story immersion in the forefront.  

[Deztyn]

What made me *headdesk* even more is when it is acknowledged, then ignored.

I did an Act of Mercy with a protemplar mage and Grace will go on about how she saw me and knows what I am and she'll turn me in if I don't let her go. So I shrug my shoulders and turn her in to the psychotic templar anyway.

... and nothing.

[Lithuasil]

kyles3 wrote...
At the end of the day, mage is one of three classes. Making a mage playthrough in DA2 100% consistent from a storyline perspective would have required significantly more resources devoted to providing content that some players will never even see. It's just not going to happen with the class system that's in place.

The class system needs to take the combat system and go die in a fire, anyway.

Aside from that, this argument makes sense if applied to Origins, where a lot of people ignored you mage-i-ness. It doesn't hold up however, when the entire plot is about mages vs mundane, and the key goal in act one is to raise money to keep the mage in your family safe...

[Curlain]

Yeah it's a shame something like they used in BG2 couldn't be used here (where if you used magic in Athkatla you were attacked unless you gained a license), there the situation was recognized to an extent

[Mnemnosyne]

Yeah, I felt like this was a major downside to the game, the fact that we could openly walk around Kirkwall in mage robes with a staff and cast spells in public while bringing no attention down on us.

Remember Baldur's Gate II where if you cast a spell outdoors the authorities came after you? That would have been nice to see here.

In Act 3, sure, being a mage isn't an issue. You're the Champion of Kirkwall, and Meredith knows that she might be able to haul you in or kill you, but it would cause her too much trouble - not only to directly fight someone who has proven themselves to be so strong, but also the fact that it would turn pretty much everyone against her if she attacked you without cause.

But in Acts 1 and 2 magic in public should have been prohibited. This would have been easily done if, as in the trailer, Mage Hawke had been some sort of hybrid that is good at fighting and uses magic as well. This would also make sense - someone who's been an apostate their whole life would have learned to defend themselves without using magic, so they're not forced to use magic at the slightest threat and reveal themselves.

[Elessara]

Yeah it did bug me. Still does but not as much anymore.

I mean, it would be really cool if you could run around pretending to be a different class right? Because you'd have to be some kind of adventurer not a no-skill nobody if you're going to go traipsing into all of these dangerous situations. So there you are as a mage pretending to be a warrior or rogue ... and then what would the point of even having a mage class be? And then in Act 1 and Act 2 you'd have to be able to figure out which fights to avoid using magic in so you won't have the templars knocking on your door.

In the end, I just chalked it up to mechanics failure. Mage was never my favorite class anyway. Yay rogues!

[highcastle]

Yeah, I wasn't a fan of the mage robes both model and storywise. Good news? If you're on the PC, you can get either the No Restrictions mod and run around in armor like a sane, hiding apostate. There's also a mod called Apostate's Wardrobe that aims to replace the models of the robes in the game with less conspicuous ones. I believe there's still issues with some NPCs (elves mostly) turning invisible because of this, but it's being worked on. It might be worth keeping an eye on.

On the consoles...it's a bit trickier. The only thing I could think to do would be to invest some of your points in Dex/Cun to wear rogue armors or Str/Con to wear warrior armors. Your character will be a bit weaker, but at least they won't look ridiculous (small price to pay, right?).

[SheilaD67]

I was (am) thoroughly disappointed by this as well. The whole plug of the game is the mage vs. templar aspect and if you're a mage nothing is done about it. At. All. Really....Cullen is paranoid about mages, that they can't be treated like people like 'you and me'. As a templar, he should really, really have noticed that crushing prison I sent at the abomination. Or maybe winter's grasp? No? How about that huge fireball that he got caught in?

It broke the RP of the game for me, tremendously. During DA:O you had many opportunities for your maginess to be commented upon and even exploited. I agree with an earlier post re: using the system of Baldur's Gate II that if you used magic at a certain time in a certain place you would be attacked or at least sanctioned.

There is a mod on the Nexus site that changed the robes to tunic and pants. So, we get rid of the Circle Mage style robes (I could not believe it when I pulled these up!) and replace with a set of cool tunic and pants. The staves looking more like weapons than hunks of wood help with the RP as well, as they can be used as a quarterstaff rather than just a spell focus.

At least they did that part right.

[Suron]

no you're not the only one. The hand waving of your character as a Mage is absolutely idiotic. ESPECIALLY during the Cullen scene and then again when Meredith is near you.

Meredith is the worst offender. The ENTIRE catalyst was Meredith clamping down on Mages and abusing her power. Yet she's going to casually hand-wave you? Whatever BioWare. Most of us aren't stupid enough to accept that.

[Wulfram]

The Cullen/Wilmod encounter is very bad, and the opening battle on your arrival in Kirkwall is problematic tool.  Otherwise I'm generally prepared to handwave things.

I think it helps if your mage is female, since then you're wearing dresses

The relationship between Meredith and an Apostate Champion I felt was handled pretty well, actually.  After all, she does try to kill you in the end.

[Wrathra]

It ruined immersion for me, yes. I thought it was extremely sloppy.

[RPGrogue]

I never thought wearing the robes was weird, just looked like my mage was fancy but liked being relaxed. The staff was a tad stupid though

also the mage champion armor does not look like mage armor, so you could argue he hides it that way

Modifié par RPGrogue, 31 mars 2011 - 12:26 .

[Suron]

no the champion mage armor doesn't look like a mage robe.

But you still have the staff..which only mages use. And then the spells. Hard to "argue" hiding any of that. Especially when you start tossing fireballs willy-nilly around town at the first sign of someone looking at you wrong.

The hand waving is stupid. Regardless of anything else. It makes NO sense when looked at from ANY angle. ESPECIALLY Meredith's.

[ThePasserby]

Has any dev responded to this issue? David Gaider has replied to that letter on arachnophobia, but not this?

[Suron]

ThePasserby wrote...

Has any dev responded to this issue? David Gaider has replied to that letter on arachnophobia, but not this?

why should he though honestly? he'll just hand-wave it like he does any criticism.  Saying we're all basically dumb and that it was done for sake of story and leave it at that.  kinda like their hand-waving any other criticisms to everyone "just hating change"