199 réponses à ce sujet

[Lukertin]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Lukertin wrote...

He starts off with a "the enemy of my enemy is an ally".  When you go to the heretic geth station he makes a short quip about how the geth 'individualize' after being away from the geth collective. Legion would similarly 'individualize' due to his isolation from the Geth and THEN what will happen when he returns?

What are you talking about? He never says anything of the sort.

Yes he does. 

[Golden Owl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

thurmanator692 wrote...

 This whole 'looking out for mine' mentality is going to get a who lotta folks killed.

On the contrary, the "looking for mine" mentality is what will motivate us all to fight.

If thats the case, then all the Reapers need do is sit back and wait, we'll all accomplish their mission for them.

[Almostfaceman]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Soooo, Legion covering your ass in multiple fire-fights isn't actively friendly?  What are you waiting for, friendship rings? 

That isn't friendly, that is self preservation. It is also merely Legion accomplishing his objectives. He was sent out to locate and make contact with Shepard. If Shepard is dead there isn't much contact to be made, now is there?

xzxzxz701 wrote...

So that is how you prove your logic?
Really? Well, that is disappointing. I was hoping for more of an actual
debate, and not you just pretty much saying my logic is wrong and your
your opinion is fact.

That's how a debate works, sweety.
If I thought your opinion was equally valid then I'd be on the fence. If
we both agree with each other we can't debate. In a debate you are
supposed to defend your position and discredit your opposition. I can't
do that if I treat your position like it is just as valid as mine.

No, it's not just self-preservation.  You're ignoring motivations behind the objectives. Geth (Legion) is actively searching out Shepard to work with him to defeat the Reapers.  They also seek to understand organics and study them so that they don't alarm them and attract more hostility.  This is all in the game dialogue.  Thus Legion is friendly towards my position.  It is working with me.  It can be trusted.  Even though we don't share beers in the lounge, we can still be considered "friends" and "allies".

[Dave666]

xzxzxz701 wrote...

I would read the rest of your post if the first sentence in it didn't invalidate the rest. I'd rather tackle one thing at a time. If you don't feel that any of the examples of geth aggression and violence count then we can't have much of a discussion.

The Morning War was casued by the Quarians trying to shut the Geth down, it was self defense.

The Heretic Geth were a different faction than the regular Geth that worked for the Reapers, just like how you can't blame all humans for what Hitler did, you can't blame all Geth for what the Heretics did.

Good analogy but you do realise that you've fallen for Godwin's Law, don't you? lol

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Must... resist... references to the elements of harmony... can't... confirm gender stereotypes.

[xzxzxz701]

Dave666 wrote...

xzxzxz701 wrote...

I would read the rest of your post if the first sentence in it didn't invalidate the rest. I'd rather tackle one thing at a time. If you don't feel that any of the examples of geth aggression and violence count then we can't have much of a discussion.

The Morning War was casued by the Quarians trying to shut the Geth down, it was self defense.

The Heretic Geth were a different faction than the regular Geth that worked for the Reapers, just like how you can't blame all humans for what Hitler did, you can't blame all Geth for what the Heretics did.

Good analogy but you do realise that you've fallen for Godwin's Law, don't you? lol

Heh, didin't notice that. Well, I guess you get a cookie then.

[Almostfaceman]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

No, it's not just self-preservation.

Yeah, it is. Legion lays it out quite plain for us. The geth oppose the Heretics, the geth oppose the Reapers. Shepard opposes the Heretics, Shepard opposes the Reapres. Cooperation furthers mutual goals. That is self preservation. That is why we form alliances.

It's not JUST self-preservation.  There is the desire to understand.  There is the desire to work together.  Self-preservation may be a factor, but it is not the only one.

"There... was a hole."

[DPSSOC]

I used to rewrite but now I destroy.  My reasoning being that I'm a hard believer that the Geth are alive in every sense that and deserve the same consideration as any organic life.  Now for the longest time I rewrote the Heretics because I thought, well I wouldn't wipe out an entire group of humans or turians that disagreed with me, so I rewrote them because killing them seemed wrong.
Unfortunatey someone pointed out that the rewrite is essentially stripping them of their freewill.  They have made a decision I disagree with so I will "correct" them for their own good.  How arrogant is that, to assume that I have the right to change people's fundamental beliefs (cause that's how the virus works, it alters the very core of programming to bring all other decisions into line) simply because they inconvenience me.
The person who mentioned this directed me here and that's what swayed me.  Agree or disagree it's another way to look at the choice.

[Dave666]

xzxzxz701 wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

xzxzxz701 wrote...

I would read the rest of your post if the first sentence in it didn't invalidate the rest. I'd rather tackle one thing at a time. If you don't feel that any of the examples of geth aggression and violence count then we can't have much of a discussion.

The Morning War was casued by the Quarians trying to shut the Geth down, it was self defense.

The Heretic Geth were a different faction than the regular Geth that worked for the Reapers, just like how you can't blame all humans for what Hitler did, you can't blame all Geth for what the Heretics did.

Good analogy but you do realise that you've fallen for Godwin's Law, don't you? lol

Heh, didin't notice that. Well, I guess you get a cookie then.

Yum! I never say no to cookies! 

[xzxzxz701]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

No, it's not just self-preservation.

Yeah, it is. Legion lays it out quite plain for us. The geth oppose the Heretics, the geth oppose the Reapers. Shepard opposes the Heretics, Shepard opposes the Reapres. Cooperation furthers mutual goals. That is self preservation. That is why we form alliances.

Well, at least this is something we can agree upon, at least mostly. The whole point of Legion joining up with Shep was because he was the most successful organic who fought the Reapers and Heretic Geth. Thats why he joined up with Shep, it was based mostly on cold hard calculations.

Modifié par xzxzxz701, 31 mars 2011 - 02:08 .

[xzxzxz701]

thurmanator692 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

There's nothing wrong with bringing up history, including the ****s, as long as it is relevant to the discussion and the point you are trying to make. The "Godwin's Law" crap is just an excuse to shut down the debate early.

Did the forum just censor you for saying "****"?

Yep, its been that way for a long time now. Apparently Bioware does not like Hitler.

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Lukertin wrote...

Yes he does. 

I'm not watching that. If you know the quote then please post it here and I might even concede part of the argument to you.

*facedesk*

THE QUOTE IN QUESTION

Legion: To be isolated within a single platform is to be reduced.  We see less.  Comprehend less.  It is quieter.

Shep: If you exchange data--memories--how do you keep track of which ones are yours?  How do you stay "you?"

Legion: There is only "we."  We were created to share data among ourselves.  The difference between geth is perspective.  We are many eyes looking at the same things.  One eye will see things another does not and make different judgments.

(Para)Shep: I can see why you'd be conflicted about the heretics.  In a way, whatever you do to them, you're doing to yourself.

Legion: Yes.  Once they return to us and upload their memories, we will share their experience of being altered.

(Para)Shep: Every other species I know of might be psychologically scarred by a traumatic experience like that.

Legion: It is not clear if geth can be "traumatized."  We do not feel pain as you do.  We cannot predict what the effects will be.

LATER

Legion, referring to heretics infiltrating and spying on true geth, something his kind would previously never do, says, "How could we have become so different?  Why can we no longer understand each other?"

Stop being so damn lazy and ignoring arguments.  It's bad form.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I also entertained the possibility that the heretic geth were the victim of some sort of subtle indoctrination the main geth missed out on - so what they percieved as a conscious choice on the part of the heretics wasn't one. The fact that the heretics were able to later concoct and consider using that virus makes me suspect this even more.

Of course, I don't know if it's possible for the geth to make that kind of error in perception. I could be benignly anthropomorphizing again.

[mr_luga]

This really went in a diffrent direction then I thought O.o; I was just wondering what you went with and why, possibly what you were thinking about as you did it.

And it blew into this full blown discussion with a touch of hostility in it :-P

I went with re-write for now, purely becouse of bioware's annoying Paragon/Renegade system. Paragon just shows too much as a "THis is the good/right choice" to me to ignore. I wish they didnt tell you, it's basicly spoiling it -.-

[xzxzxz701]

mr_luga wrote...

This really went in a diffrent direction then I thought O.o; I was just wondering what you went with and why, possibly what you were thinking about as you did it.

And it blew into this full blown discussion with a touch of hostility in it :-P

I went with re-write for now, purely becouse of bioware's annoying Paragon/Renegade system. Paragon just shows too much as a "THis is the good/right choice" to me to ignore. I wish they didnt tell you, it's basicly spoiling it -.-

Haha yeah, most threads on theses forums tend to get off topic pretty quickly.