199 réponses à ce sujet

[Pacifien]

Because I know some people place importance on getting as few renegade points as possible with their paragons, I thought I'd chime in to say that my overwhelmingly paragon Shepards will not choose rewrite. I, personally, would not choose rewrite.

Legion mentions the value of discovery to the geth such that they declined being given advanced technology in favor of coming to the research on their own time and pace. The important factor was in coming to their own conclusion what technology, and future, was best for themselves. By rewrite, they are saying what is good for them is not good for another because it is of inconvenience to them: why continue a schism of their fellow geth-Heretics when they could all be one entity again at FTL speeds? Using Reaper technology no less. It is accepting what they had initially denied because they didn't like the consequences.

Is reprogramming the same as brainwashing? Depends on what actually makes brainwashing so terrible, I suppose. Geth do not have emotions, so the fear in losing oneself and being molded into someone else entirely does not compute. However, Legion clearly didn't want the Heretics to succeed with their virus. It might not have been fear-motivated, but the geth did not want to be reprogrammed. They have to assume the Heretics would have a similar response. If you don't believe in Admiral Daro'Xen's belief that the geth should be returned to the whims of their creators because they are just machines, then I see allowing the control of a group by force as being an issue.

A conclusion is not a singular action. There is a series of actions, responses, and critical thinking involved that gets you from point A to Z. You don't just decide you believe in Z without a reason why. The virus is meant to alter a conclusion, but Legion clearly indicates that the Heretics will retain their memories of what they had done during the schism with the geth. Legion mentions this is a reason why the geth wouldn't want to wipe the Heretics out, because you lose their perspective. So you will now have an entity that believes in X instead of Z but will not have the memories to back up why it now suddenly believes in X. The importance in Legion playing back the memory of the geth asking its owner what is a soul is that it demonstrates the geth do possess the ability to question why something exists. Make the Heretics believe in X if you want, but they're bound to go through their memories at some point and wonder why it's not Z anymore.

Also, Legion cannot guarantee the virus's success. This means you are integrating the Heretics back into the geth hive mind, allowing them to access the entire geth network, and it's likely the virus is not 100% successful. Just one Heretic needs to integrate the system in order to alter it, and then every geth program who connects to the network will be infected. No, rather a Heretic rejoin the geth network because it wants to and the geth aren't simply relying on their virus to make it work.

And finally, I don't believe the theory that Sovereign interfered with the geth and caused the schism. I get the feeling in this regard that either you believe it happened or you don't. There's no explicit evidence, and the idea that the geth could evolve to the point where they realize even math can lead to diverging outcomes appeals to me more than saying they were tampered with.

[Zulu_DFA]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Legion doesn't look like thinking that the Heretics' position is really valid.

Well I don't agree with anyone who likes sour cream that sour cream is good, but for them, their conclusion is valid. Legion goes so far as to state that the Heretics' opinion is not the result of any kind of malfunction or error.

Um, IIRC, Shepard can ask specifically if the Heretics' conclusions are based on an error, and Legion basically confirms it, comparing it to this one, which, being a hardware error, raises the question as to the accuracy of his earlier statment that the Geth are pure math, and, unlike the organics, do not experience hardware errors. IDK, maybe the Geth do not yet fully understand what they really are, and how they depend on their harware - even their current task is to build themselves a super-fancy piece of hardware - but that's a totally anouther discussion.

Legion's actions are the most telling, though: the Heretics are invalid, and therefore must be rewritten, or destroyed.

[jbblue05]

The Heretics can rot in robot hell and the "true geth" can join them also

[Golden Owl]

Thank you Pacifien...You have given me some very interesting points to consider...now you have me thinking. :-)

Modifié par Golden Owl, 31 mars 2011 - 03:44 .

[Dave666]

Pacifien wrote...

Because I know some people place importance on getting as few renegade points as possible with their paragons, I thought I'd chime in to say that my overwhelmingly paragon Shepards will not choose rewrite. I, personally, would not choose rewrite.

Legion mentions the value of discovery to the geth such that they declined being given advanced technology in favor of coming to the research on their own time and pace. The important factor was in coming to their own conclusion what technology, and future, was best for themselves. By rewrite, they are saying what is good for them is not good for another because it is of inconvenience to them: why continue a schism of their fellow geth-Heretics when they could all be one entity again at FTL speeds? Using Reaper technology no less. It is accepting what they had initially denied because they didn't like the consequences.

Is reprogramming the same as brainwashing? Depends on what actually makes brainwashing so terrible, I suppose. Geth do not have emotions, so the fear in losing oneself and being molded into someone else entirely does not compute. However, Legion clearly didn't want the Heretics to succeed with their virus. It might not have been fear-motivated, but the geth did not want to be reprogrammed. They have to assume the Heretics would have a similar response. If you don't believe in Admiral Daro'Xen's belief that the geth should be returned to the whims of their creators because they are just machines, then I see allowing the control of a group by force as being an issue.

A conclusion is not a singular action. There is a series of actions, responses, and critical thinking involved that gets you from point A to Z. You don't just decide you believe in Z without a reason why. The virus is meant to alter a conclusion, but Legion clearly indicates that the Heretics will retain their memories of what they had done during the schism with the geth. Legion mentions this is a reason why the geth wouldn't want to wipe the Heretics out, because you lose their perspective. So you will now have an entity that believes in X instead of Z but will not have the memories to back up why it now suddenly believes in X. The importance in Legion playing back the memory of the geth asking its owner what is a soul is that it demonstrates the geth do possess the ability to question why something exists. Make the Heretics believe in X if you want, but they're bound to go through their memories at some point and wonder why it's not Z anymore.

Also, Legion cannot guarantee the virus's success. This means you are integrating the Heretics back into the geth hive mind, allowing them to access the entire geth network, and it's likely the virus is not 100% successful. Just one Heretic needs to integrate the system in order to alter it, and then every geth program who connects to the network will be infected. No, rather a Heretic rejoin the geth network because it wants to and the geth aren't simply relying on their virus to make it work.

And finally, I don't believe the theory that Sovereign interfered with the geth and caused the schism. I get the feeling in this regard that either you believe it happened or you don't. There's no explicit evidence, and the idea that the geth could evolve to the point where they realize even math can lead to diverging outcomes appeals to me more than saying they were tampered with.

Nicely put, I've usually rewtitten but fully expect it to bite me on the behind on those save files. 

[axl99]

It's funny thinking the heretic geth gained their own perspective by being influenced by reapers to the point they deviate from their normal run-times. And unconsciously chose not to repair the damage that was done to them, which is ironic as geth are normally quite capable of self-repair. In a way you can view them as innocent.

But regardless whether you choose to let them be rewritten or destroyed, they ultimately stop becoming a threat to you in the short term at the very least.

I view rewriting the geth as a way for the true geth to gain another perspective, as they themselves are not completely vulnerable to the re-write process. The heretics will figuratively live on in them.

From my standpoint, it's no different than setting the Rachni queen free.

[Almostfaceman]

Pacifien wrote...

A conclusion is not a singular action. There is a series of actions, responses, and critical thinking involved that gets you from point A to Z. You don't just decide you believe in Z without a reason why. The virus is meant to alter a conclusion, but Legion clearly indicates that the Heretics will retain their memories of what they had done during the schism with the geth. Legion mentions this is a reason why the geth wouldn't want to wipe the Heretics out, because you lose their perspective. So you will now have an entity that believes in X instead of Z but will not have the memories to back up why it now suddenly believes in X. The importance in Legion playing back the memory of the geth asking its owner what is a soul is that it demonstrates the geth do possess the ability to question why something exists. Make the Heretics believe in X if you want, but they're bound to go through their memories at some point and wonder why it's not Z anymore.

Actually, Legion specifically says that the Heretics will not retain their memories.   Their "memories" are re-written.  This is why Legion is concerned about losing data in the process.  The data being other perceptions that might have been helpful to the Geth not including "Let's have a weenie roast with the Old Machines".  Here's the dialoge from the game:

Legion: Their virus can be repurposed.  If released into the station's network, the heretics will be rewritten to accept our truth. 

a few moments later...

Shepard: If this were an organic race, it might be an ethical problem.  Geth aren't like organic life.  Don't apply our morality to them.

Legion: That is logical.

*squadmate dialogue*

Legion: No two species are identical.  All must be judged on their own merits.  Treating every species like one's own is racist.  Even benign anthropomorphism.  The minds of both forms of life can be shaped.  Organics require time and effort.  With synthetics, replacement of a data file is the only requirement.

Later...

Legion:  The heretics connect to the main computer to exchange data memories and program updates.  We gain complexity by linking together.  To be isolated within a single platform is to be reduced.  We see less.  Comprehend less.  It is quieter.

Shepard:  If you exchange data - memories - how do you keep track of which ones are yours?  How do you stay "you?"

Legion:  There is only "we".  We were created to share data among ourselves.  The difference between geth is perspective.  We are many eyes looking at the same things.  One platform will see things another does not and will make different judgements.

Legion:  If that's the case, is rewriting the heretics that big a deal?  There like a rogue limb of your own body.  Rewriting them would be like reattaching a severed arm.

Legion:  To use your metaphor they removed themselves from our body.  Took their perspective.  Their judgement.

Shepard:  They decided to worship Sovereign.  I don't think you're missing much.

Legion:  Every point of view is useful, even those that are wrong -- if we can judge why a wrong view was accepted.  For example, we have found the casual self-deception of organics useful in analyzing your thought-processes.

See? If the perspective wasn't in danger of being over-written or permanently lost, it would not be a concern for Legion.  The "individual" geth themselves are being re-written in this process, so the "memories" are lost, because the culmination of the "individual" geth are how they share perspective and reach consensus.  There are no "memories" anymore to "review" then wonder later at how they arrived at a different conclusion.  

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 31 mars 2011 - 04:25 .

[Pacifien]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Um, IIRC, Shepard can ask specifically if the Heretics' conclusions are based on an error, and Legion basically confirms it, comparing it to this one, which, being a hardware error, raises the question as to the accuracy of his earlier statment that the Geth are pure math, and, unlike the organics, do not experience hardware errors. IDK, maybe the Geth do not yet fully understand what they really are, and how they depend on their harware - even their current task is to build themselves a super-fancy piece of hardware - but that's a totally anouther discussion.

Legion's actions are the most telling, though: the Heretics are invalid, and therefore must be rewritten, or destroyed.

Actually, you say Legion basically confirms the Heretics' conclusions are based on an error when Legion doesn't.

There are two issues raised at two different times in regards to how the software works for geth and Heretics. At one time, Shepard specifically asks "So the reason [the Heretics] worship the Reapers is a math error?" Legion's response is "The Heretics' conclusion is valid for them. Our conclusion is valid for us. Neither result is an error." He goes on to mention the 1 is less than 2, 2 is less than 3 example. The FDIV bug that you point to is very definitely an error.

The other scenario that is brought up is not in relation to the Reapers, but in how the virus will work. In response to this, Legion brings up an equation that brings up a result of 1.33382 and becomes 1.33381. This he describes as definitely being a "subtle operating error." In an old thread, I mentioned how one can come up with two different results based on whether you choose to round or truncate, but it appears that this is not what Legion means in his equation scenario. In this respect, the math value returned is definitely faulty, but inescapable because it is now a part of the software.

[Zulu_DFA]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Legion is the one who is invalid.

Either way, one of the Geth factions is clearly being illogical, which is enough to prove that all Geth are capable of being illogical.

As to your sour cream example, it's not so harmless, as you think. In Jonathan Swift's Gulliver's Travels two nations went to war with each other over which end eggs should be eaten from. So yeah, I would gladly fight people like you to the death in the name of sour cream, under certain circumstances. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/devil.png[/smilie]

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 mars 2011 - 04:18 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Pacifien wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Um, IIRC, Shepard can ask specifically if the Heretics' conclusions are based on an error, and Legion basically confirms it, comparing it to this one, which, being a hardware error, raises the question as to the accuracy of his earlier statment that the Geth are pure math, and, unlike the organics, do not experience hardware errors. IDK, maybe the Geth do not yet fully understand what they really are, and how they depend on their harware - even their current task is to build themselves a super-fancy piece of hardware - but that's a totally anouther discussion.

Legion's actions are the most telling, though: the Heretics are invalid, and therefore must be rewritten, or destroyed.

Actually, you say Legion basically confirms the Heretics' conclusions are based on an error when Legion doesn't.

There are two issues raised at two different times in regards to how the software works for geth and Heretics. At one time, Shepard specifically asks "So the reason [the Heretics] worship the Reapers is a math error?" Legion's response is "The Heretics' conclusion is valid for them. Our conclusion is valid for us. Neither result is an error." He goes on to mention the 1 is less than 2, 2 is less than 3 example. The FDIV bug that you point to is very definitely an error.

The other scenario that is brought up is not in relation to the Reapers, but in how the virus will work. In response to this, Legion brings up an equation that brings up a result of 1.33382 and becomes 1.33381. This he describes as definitely being a "subtle operating error." In an old thread, I mentioned how one can come up with two different results based on whether you choose to round or truncate, but it appears that this is not what Legion means in his equation scenario. In this respect, the math value returned is definitely faulty, but inescapable because it is now a part of the software.

Oh, my bad, I confused those two instances.

Still. Legion's answer to Shepard's question is somewhat evasive. Shepard asks about the reason, not the result.

The Heretics' thinking is somewhat like this:

All organics are bad things.
All bad things must be destroyed.
All organics must be destroyed.

This is perfectly logical. Yet, as long as you admit there is an error in one of the premises, the conclusion is erroneous too. It has been heavily implied ever since ME1 that the Heretics accepted the premise that "All organics are bad" as a matter of faith (i.e. irrationally, illogically).

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 mars 2011 - 04:39 .

[Dave666]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Legion's actions are the most telling, though: the Heretics are invalid, and therefore must be rewritten, or destroyed.

Legion is the one who is invalid. His philosophy is a silly one. If the Heretics were just the result of a hardware error then no rewrite would have ever been necessary. All we'd have to do is get them to download into properly built platforms.

When Shepard asks if the Heretics follow the Reapers because of a math error, Legion says no.

Indeed he says Geth say 1 is less than 2, the heretics say 2 is less than 3.  Both are mathematically correct.  Basically Legion is saying that their conclusion is not 'wrong', he's saying that the Geth just don't agree with it.

[Almostfaceman]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...


The Heretics' thinking is somewhat like this:

All organics are bad things.
All bad things must be destroyed.
All organics must be destroyed.

This is perfectly logical, yet as there is an error in the premise. It is heavily implied that the Heretics accepted the premise that "All organics are bad" as a matter of faith (i.e. irrationally, illogically).

No, the illogical part is in the way you are phrasing it and how the train of thought you are proposing. It is more like THIS:

We want more complexity and computing power.
The Reapers will give us this if we give them what they want.
The Reapers want organics destroyed.
We will make war on organics.

Except you're forgetting that the heretics consider the Reapers to be Gods.  This goes beyond what they can get from the Reapers, and gives the Reapers a religous form of authority, which obviously influences their (the heretics) decisions.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 31 mars 2011 - 04:41 .

[Praetor Knight]

I guess it all depends on how Heretics and Non-heretics process information and maybe even how they became self-aware in the first place.

So if there is a runtime error, then there is a possibilty that some sort of malware was introduced by Nazara into the Geth collective that was only successful in affecting a small percent of all of the individual Geth programs to follow it, because of how resilient the Geth turned out to be. And the Reapers have been playing the reprogramming/ indoctrination game much longer that the Quarians, so that's a possibility.

Or like the Pentium chip example, any Geth, that could have taken up Nazara's offer, could potentially have been affected by using some piece of reaper hardware that forced the error onto the Geth that are later called Heretics by Legion.



Another question that I'd like a better answer for is when was the runtime error actually introduced? (And as a side note, I've been wondering if the Morning War was a result of Nazara's meddling in the first place, since even Harby says “Geth; an annoyance, limited utility.”)

From here: http://www.tech-faq....time-error.html

A different type of runtime error is caused by harmful programs such as viruses and other malicious processes. These harmful programs are capable of altering the computer’s settings. With this, they are very much capable of generating runtime errors. In order to prevent runtime errors that are caused by such malicious programs, you need to frequently update your software security application. If your PC does not have a good software security program, you need to install one and scan your computer for possible threats to the stability of your system and the security of your private data.

And there's always the wiki: http://en.wikipedia....ime_(computing)

[Iakus]

I rewrite.

Iakus's Loony ME theory #3

Sovereign rewrote the original Heretics.  

The Heretics have a Reaper virus which rewrites geth to worship the Old Machines.  Conveniently, this virus is on a Reaper quantum storage device, presumably supplied by Sovereign.   

Therefore, the Heretics are sufffering from a synthetic version of indoctrination. After all, Sovereign needed minions and footsoldiers to help him find the Conduit and attack the Citadel. Rewriting them is doing them a favor.  Though the Quarians may not thank you.