199 réponses à ce sujet

[AdmiralCheez]

Okay, so the heretics' logic is valid, but they resorted to that logic due to a math error? Seems like said math error just set them on a different train of thought, one that they previously would not have considered.

I'm not ruling out the possibility of Reaper tampering, but I get what Legion's saying, I think--they arrived at their solution by accident, but it is still a valid solution.

[GuardianAngel470]

Legion instills in me the doubt that makes me blow them up.

Usually, I'd be all for more geth around, but in dialog from legion i get the sense that even he doesn't know what would happen and, when all you're really gaining is less than five percent of the species, it really isn't worth the risk of jeopardizing the other 95%+.

[Praetor Knight]

iakus wrote...

I rewrite.

Iakus's Loony ME theory #3

Sovereign rewrote the original Heretics.  

The Heretics have a Reaper virus which rewrites geth to worship the Old Machines.  Conveniently, this virus is on a Reaper quantum storage device, presumably supplied by Sovereign.   

Therefore, the Heretics are sufffering from a synthetic version of indoctrination. After all, Sovereign needed minions and footsoldiers to help him find the Conduit and attack the Citadel. Rewriting them is doing them a favor.  Though the Quarians may not thank you.

I guess I'm in the same boat and I'm just adding, with regards to the virus part.

There are many forms of malware. Nazara/Sovereign could just as easily placed a trojan that rewrote the Geth, which would also make Legion's opinion of the heretics still valid, since normal Geth would be unaware of the tampering.

http://en.wikipedia....C_and_backdoors

Edit: fixing link

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 31 mars 2011 - 04:54 .

[Almostfaceman]

I'm curious about the relationship of "the heretics say 1+2 = 3" while we say " 1+3 =4" and the heretics view of the Reapers as Gods. The idea of the Reapers tampering with the Geth is becoming more and more plausible.

[Almostfaceman]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

I'm curious about the relationship of "the heretics say 1+2 = 3" while we say " 1+3 =4" and the heretics view of the Reapers as Gods. The idea of the Reapers tampering with the Geth is becoming more and more plausible.

No it isn't. If Sovereign had tampered with the geth there would be no Heretic/True Geth divide.

Illogical, you assume you know the parameters and conditions of the virus and how it was delivered.

[Praetor Knight]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

I'm curious about the relationship of "the heretics say 1+2 = 3" while we say " 1+3 =4" and the heretics view of the Reapers as Gods. The idea of the Reapers tampering with the Geth is becoming more and more plausible.

No it isn't. If Sovereign had tampered with the geth there would be no Heretic/True Geth divide.

What makes you sure?

[ciphermind]

[Edit: Comments removed. Do not insult another poster on these forums. Reacquaint yourself with the Site Rules. - Pacifien]

I chose to rewrite, considering their clear collective drive to become a cooperative member of galactic society (Legion) and because of the potential reward. In the end, regardless of ethical implications, there is some risk involved in passing up a a chance to destroy an army. Fundamentally there is a risk reward analysis that the player has to make, and from my own analysis of the Geth, Legion, and the Heretics I chose the rewrite.

Of course gameplay wise it won't really matter, any Geth support will be nominally important, and any Geth opposition will be nominally obstructive.

I suppose the big thing to remember is the Rachni. Both the Geth and the Rachni are hated, and both share pseudo-collectivist structure. If one extrapolates the results with the Rachni Queen, one may see that rewriting is the obvious choice, though there are unknown variables which are as of yet unaccounted for by canon, leaving a lot of options and potential outcomes for ME3.

Modifié par Pacifien, 31 mars 2011 - 05:14 .

[Almostfaceman]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

What makes you sure?

Why would Sovereign indoctrinate some of the geth but not all of them? They are a hive mind, remember?

Again, illogical, you assume you know the parameters and conditions of the virus and how it was delivered.

[Pacifien]

Almostfaceman wrote...
See? If the perspective wasn't in danger of being over-written or permanently lost, it would not be a concern for Legion.  The "individual" geth themselves are being re-written in this process, so the "memories" are lost, because the culmination of the "individual" geth are how they share perspective and reach consensus.  There are no "memories" anymore to "review" then wonder later at how they arrived at a different conclusion.  

Perspective is different from memories. The virus will give the Heretics a different perspective from that point forward, but it will not erase the memories of what they have done. If you take another dialogue path during the conversation you quoted, Legion will tell Shepard "Once they return to use and upload their memories, we will share their experience in being altered." However, because the geth have altered how the Heretics reach their conclusions, they will be unable to determine why the Heretics chose the path they did. They will have memories of doing various things and not know they did them because their new perspective would never have done things that way. And if the geth are prone to questioning why the universe is, I can't imagine they'd accept something was as it was without exploring why. That's a danger in forcing a perspective versus letting it naturally evolve.

[Pacifien]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
Okay, so the heretics' logic is valid, but they resorted to that logic due to a math error? Seems like said math error just set them on a different train of thought, one that they previously would not have considered.

I'm not ruling out the possibility of Reaper tampering, but I get what Legion's saying, I think--they arrived at their solution by accident, but it is still a valid solution.

According to Legion, math error was not involved in how the Heretics reach their logic that led to the schism with the rest of the geth.

Math error is what it would take to rewrite the Heretics to believe in the geth's logic.

[ciphermind]

@Pacifien Good point about the inorganic acquisition potentially causing problems. In my opinion the rewrite could get the Geth to fight with you in the short term but cause a future epistemic crisis.

[upsettingshorts]

Oh a new one of these threads. Lemme dig up my response from six months ago. Yes, I bookmark some of my posts for reference. It's a time saver. Don't judge me!

Upsettingshorts wrote...

What happened is what Legion described, I'm not sure an analogy can do more than cloud the issue.

Sovereign and the Geth came into contact. Most Geth did not want anything to do with it. Some Geth did. Up until this point, Geth had the same perspective but different thought processes. The Heretic group separated from the collective to further the interests of Sovereign, their new leader. Over the course of their service and separation from the Orthodox Geth, both groups retained their different thought process but also gained different perspectives. For example, the Orthodox Geth had never met Shepard until the derelict Reaper encounter, whereas the Heretics had fought him numerous times. In pursuit of Sovereign's goals, they made war on the Citadel races and eventually planned to deploy a virus that would alter the thought process of the Orthodox Geth into joining their cause.

So eventually Legion presents Shepard with an opportunity to rewrite the Heretic Geth thought process and return them to the Orthodox collective. What the virus cannot change is the unique perspective the Heretic Geth have gained through their separation, thus making them inherently and irreversibly different than the Orthodox Geth regardless of how reprogrammed their thought process attempts to make them homogeneous.

Legion states that while the Heretic Geth would come around to the idea that being in Sovereign's service was wrong, he can't predict much else about their future behavior and due to a lack of consensus, defers to Shepard - whose perspective is sharper than the Orthodox Geth given Shepard's significant contact with the Heretics.

The above is more or less, the complete description of the scenario we're presented with. I'd argue it doesn't fit cleanly into any human analogy - so using them is problematic.

Based on the information above, I destroyed the Heretic base to preserve the Orthodox Geth as Legion has explained them to me - especially their adherence to self-determination. The introduction of the Heretics would in my estimation prove to be a destabilizing element that I could not afford to risk given the stakes - both the impending Reaper Invasion and any hope for peace with the Quarians.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 31 mars 2011 - 05:15 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Saphra Deden wrote...

We want more complexity and computing power.
The Reapers will give us this if we give them what they want.
The Reapers want organics destroyed.
We will make war on organics.

That's maybe how Legion and the True Geth thought it all went down. However, Legion himself was erroneous when he thought that the Heretics would not spy on the True Geth, even despite the admitted incompatibility of the both "valid" positions.

Saren, however, testified that there was more to it than just simple bargaining. Manuel confirmed that Saren was treated as a "prophet" by the Heretics, even though it would be completely unnecessary and illogical to even have him around, if there was just the relationship you describe between the Heretics and Sovereign. Finally, you saw for yourself on Feros that the Heretics made a shrine similar to those the indoctrinated organic "machine cultists" make, meaning that they had "logically" come to the same "conclusions" as inherently erratic minds come to after being seriously messed up with.

And, again, the fact alone that the True Geth knew the contents of Sovereign's proposition, but chose differently form the Heretics, speaks for the existense of the factor that the True Geth were not exposed to. And it's not some kind of additional logical reasoning, because if it were, Sovereign would have easily used it to convert all the Geth to Heretics. Supposedly, this factor had something to do with the virus the Heretics were making for the True Geth after Sovereign was destroyed and they took heavy losses in the Battle of the Citadel, and it had something to do with the "Reaper data core" Sovereign had previously provided to the Heretics. So, everything actually points in the direction that the Heretics' schism is indeed based on a hardware error with the "Reaper data core" as the faulty Pentium processor in that 1.33381/1.33382 example.

[Pwener2313]

The Heretic Geth saw the Reapers as Gods, they, but immensily more powerful. They followed them because they were them, "robots", just bigger and better. Faith is the math error. They did not understand the Reapers (like we follow God, by faith).

[Zulu_DFA]

Pacifien wrote...

According to Legion, math error was not involved in how the Heretics reach their logic that led to the schism with the rest of the geth.

Math error is what it would take to rewrite the Heretics to believe in the geth's logic.

But that's ... illogical.

If the Heretics' conclusions can be reached without an error being involved, then it must work with the rest of the Geth.

I think, what Legion is trying to say, is that the True Geth understand the Heretics' reasons and the train of thought. The train of thought is logical, but the reasons are erroneous - but only from the True Geth's PoV. The Heretics, naturally, can't see the error as soon as they've experienced it, and neither would the True Geth, as soon as they were forced to experince it - there simply wouldn't be True Geth left.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 mars 2011 - 05:36 .

[Praetor Knight]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Why would Sovereign indoctrinate some of the geth but not all of them? They are a hive mind, remember?

the Hive mind comment reminded me of the Invention of Lying movie; and I though about how Geth society might be and how Indoctrination could have started, but back on topic.


I figure that not all of the Geth were indoctrinated because of how Geth were first made and are programmed, and because of how Indoctrination works in the first place.

The Geth were built up piece by piece from the foundation of Virtual Intelligence to perform more and more complex tasks and to be as maintenance free as possible.

From ME1, we know that fast Indoctrination shatters organic minds with slow Indoctrination producing productive long-term results, but that depends on sustained proximity, since even Saren could see what happened to him. So I figure the Geth should be no different or even more difficult in that regard for reprogramming, and especially with Quarians involved in constantly tinkering with Geth coding before the Morning War.

So if there was a vulnerable neural network on a fringe colony of Quarian space, then there is a plausibility that Nazara/Sovereign could exploit the Geth programming to suit it's purposes. But the Quarians could have eventually caught tampering (or maybe some Quarian did catch on, which was why the General Order was issued in the knee-jerk fashion as we are told about it).

In other words, the famous "impromptu" question could have quite possibly been a way to remove Quarian influence to complete the process of taking total control over the Geth. But Because of Geth programming resiliency, I imagine each individual program would have to be changed for that to work, which could be why it has taken so long to find a virus that could finally rewrite all of the Geth.

I mean the Reapers do seem to take their time compared to our sense of time, so that's more or less my understanding on why things are the way they are.

[Iakus]

Saphra Deden wrote...

You are assuming a lot about Saren and his role in recruiting the geth.

Manuel was a raving loon, why would you take literally anything he says?

Listen to his rantings in ME 1.  He knew more about what was going on than anyone

[Pwener2313]

iakus wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

You are assuming a lot about Saren and his role in recruiting the geth.

Manuel was a raving loon, why would you take literally anything he says?

Listen to his rantings in ME 1.  He knew more about what was going on than anyone

Yeah, because it's not like a lot of people cry Game Over when faced with dread. He was a loon, nothing more. He did not know a thing.

[Drake_Hound]

Good moral choice , in the end , I made the final decision of having more scrap metal for the war.
Sound harsh but picking between mass brainwashing or mass genocide , and being shoved into that shoe , I best pick the option that further the universe goal . still it doesn´t justify anything .