199 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

Saphra Deden wrote...

He says the geth consider the Reapers to be gods. They do. Why shouldn't they? The Reapers pretty much are gods compared to them. The Reapers behave that way. Thus the geth treat the Reapers as they want to be treated and carry out their will. All with the promise that they will ultimately get what they want in return.

Except the Saren also says all that worshipping is unwanted and unnecessary from Sovereign's PoV, and if it was all the same to the Heretics, it would be better if they spent their energy for something more useful, like shooting at Shepard, instead of building them Reaper shrines.

Saphra Deden wrote...

You have your facts wrong. Sovereign did not give them a Reaper data-core. He gave them a secure storage device, a safe place to save their virus and presumably any other critical data. Legion went to the Reaper data core on the derelict Reaper to learn how to crack the "safe" Sovereign had given the Heretics.

"Data-core" sounds a lot like a "storage device" to me.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 mars 2011 - 05:39 .

[Pwener2313]

Drake_Hound wrote...

still it doesn´t justify anything .

Yes it is! Batarians are bad!



SEE! Bad, bad Batarian.

[Pacifien]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
But that's ... illogical.

If the heretics' conclusions can bereached without an error being involved, then it must work with the rest of the Geth.

This is assuming that their programming is exactly the same, which I doubt considering that their sapience was entirely an accident of various quarians tweaking little things over time. Quarian Bob took his mining geth and fiddled with its programming while Quarian Betty took her nanny geth and fiddled with its programming in a different way.

Consider how a program calculates an equation and returns a value of 1.236. You can program it to round to the nearest hundredth and get 1.24 or you can tell it to truncate to the nearest hundredth and get 1.23. The math is technically correct, but how the program applies it is different.

Now, this is different to Legion's 1.33382/1.33381 scenario because he never actually describes how the program will alter its programming to obtain a different result. Because he describes it as an error, I'm inclined to believe it's not similar to the round/truncate scenario and that the different result is actually from computing the equation wrong.

[King Killoth]

i always rewrite them so i could have a geth army for ME3. also saved the rakni and had mordin save the cure for the krogans. Im always thinking of a massive army to fight the reapers and not my short term gain.

[AdmiralCheez]

Pacifien wrote...

According to Legion, math error was not involved in how the Heretics reach their logic that led to the schism with the rest of the geth.

Math error is what it would take to rewrite the Heretics to believe in the geth's logic.

... AND how the heretics planned to rewrite the rest of the geth, right?

Okay, I dig it.  Equally valid logic = original conclusion.  Math error = brainwashing virus.

[Pwener2313]

King Killoth wrote...

i always rewrite them so i could have a geth army for ME3. also saved the rakni and had mordin save the cure for the krogans. Im always thinking of a massive army to fight the reapers and not my short term gain.

YES

[Zulu_DFA]

Pacifien wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
But that's ... illogical.

If the Heretics' conclusions can be reached without an error being involved, then it must work with the rest of the Geth.

This is assuming that their programming is exactly the same, which I doubt considering that their sapience was entirely an accident of various quarians tweaking little things over time. Quarian Bob took his mining geth and fiddled with its programming while Quarian Betty took her nanny geth and fiddled with its programming in a different way.

Consider how a program calculates an equation and returns a value of 1.236. You can program it to round to the nearest hundredth and get 1.24 or you can tell it to truncate to the nearest hundredth and get 1.23. The math is technically correct, but how the program applies it is different.

I think that after the 300 years of "freedom" the all Geth were the same, when it comes to basic processing.

Pacifien wrote...

Now, this is different to Legion's 1.33382/1.33381 scenario because he never actually describes how the program will alter its programming to obtain a different result. Because he describes it as an error, I'm inclined to believe it's not similar to the round/truncate scenario and that the different result is actually from computing the equation wrong.

Exactly.

Also what I've already tried to get to, is that Legion calls the organics' fear of the Geth a "hardware error".

Thus, it's a possible explanation, that after the contact with Sovereign the Heretics simply began to fear the organics.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 mars 2011 - 06:04 .

[Fortlowe]

I rewrite, always. I rewrite because I view the descision from the perspective of an organic. This perspective, I think is the only one Shep can contribute to the descision. Otherwise, Legion should be able to make the call itself.

As an organic I imagine the same scenario, except with organics. I have a group of people that have wantingly caused a tremendous amount of death and destruction in service of a false god. This splinter group was once a part of a larger civilization; my civilization. They speak my language. They have my culture and my values and my blood. But they believe something different.

And I have to decide their fate. On the on hand, I can destroy them all in one fell swope. This completely eliminates even the possiblity of them corrupting any more of my people with their violent beliefs and demonstrates to those that they harmed that they are not like us, even if I know they are just like us. On the other hand I can infect them with a form of mass amnesia. They will not forget our language. They will not forget their roots or where they come from. And they will not forget what they have done. They will only forget why they believed it was necessary. True enough, that knowledge will likely cripple many of them emotionally, but  that is still better than dead. Killing my own people on that scale (genocide) would be out of the question, no matter how horrible their actions as a group. Especially with an alternative that does not involve bloodshed.

Is it ethically just to do it? No. Forcibly changing peoples minds is a violation of their very identities. But, again, it's better than dead.

[Zulu_DFA]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Similar concept, but if they were the same thing Legion would have said as such. That would be a rather important plot point ,don't you think?

In any case, it is irrelevan to what I'm saying.

The Heretics' virus is a factor that would convert the True Geth to Heretics.

There was a factor that converted a portion of the True Geth to the Heretics earlier, during the first contact with Sovereign.

10 bucks says the function of the virus is based on that factor, if it's not exactly the same.

[Almostfaceman]

Pacifien wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...
See? If the perspective wasn't in danger of being over-written or permanently lost, it would not be a concern for Legion.  The "individual" geth themselves are being re-written in this process, so the "memories" are lost, because the culmination of the "individual" geth are how they share perspective and reach consensus.  There are no "memories" anymore to "review" then wonder later at how they arrived at a different conclusion.  

Perspective is different from memories. The virus will give the Heretics a different perspective from that point forward, but it will not erase the memories of what they have done. If you take another dialogue path during the conversation you quoted, Legion will tell Shepard "Once they return to use and upload their memories, we will share their experience in being altered." However, because the geth have altered how the Heretics reach their conclusions, they will be unable to determine why the Heretics chose the path they did. They will have memories of doing various things and not know they did them because their new perspective would never have done things that way. And if the geth are prone to questioning why the universe is, I can't imagine they'd accept something was as it was without exploring why. That's a danger in forcing a perspective versus letting it naturally evolve.

There is no difference from memories and perspective for an individual Geth.  When you change how it looks at the world, it by itself is unable to change its perspective back.  So, when it "looks back" through its different perspective, it sees the memory differently.  

To put it in human terms...  I look back at my military career differently now than when I did 10 years ago.  I don't question why I look at it differently because time and experience have changed my way of thinking. Time and experience are not needed for the Geth.  As Legion points out, only software is required.  The re-written heretics will not question their memories, they will simply share the perspective of the non-heretics and look at the change in perspective in the same way that I look at my memories differently now.

[Pacifien]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
I think that after the 300 years of "freedom" the all Geth were the same, when it comes to basic processing.

No, in 300 years time, Geth Windows will still be jealous of Geth OSX being so rad and cool  while Geth OSX feels Geth Windows perspective is stale and neither trusts Geth Linux's security protocols.

[Pacifien]

Almostfaceman wrote...

There is no difference from memories and perspective for an individual Geth.  When you change how it looks at the world, it by itself is unable to change its perspective back.  So, when it "looks back" through its different perspective, it sees the memory differently.

It perceives the memory differently, but it does not erase the memory. Heretics willingly followed Sovereign. They went to war with organics. These are facts of their past that does not change. What is lost is why.

[gorrillasnake]

Geth all run on..the hardware that was used to bulit a 3do game console (google it)

Pacifien wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
I think that after the 300 years of "freedom" the all Geth were the same, when it comes to basic processing.

No, in 300 years time, Geth Windows will still be jealous of Geth OSX being so rad and cool  while Geth OSX feels Geth Windows perspective is stale and neither trusts Geth Linux's security protocols.

[Zulu_DFA]

Pacifien wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
I think that after the 300 years of "freedom" the all Geth were the same, when it comes to basic processing.

No, in 300 years time, Geth Windows will still be jealous of Geth OSX being so rad and cool  while Geth OSX feels Geth Windows perspective is stale and neither trusts Geth Linux's security protocols.

Not true. The Geth have reached consensus on Wndows. And even the Heretics don't use them!

[Almostfaceman]

Pacifien wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

There is no difference from memories and perspective for an individual Geth.  When you change how it looks at the world, it by itself is unable to change its perspective back.  So, when it "looks back" through its different perspective, it sees the memory differently.

It perceives the memory differently, but it does not erase the memory. Heretics willingly followed Sovereign. They went to war with organics. These are facts of their past that does not change. What is lost is why.

Again, they're looking at that memory differently now, as if time and experience changed it.  Now they see it as a mistake because their perceptions have changed.  I willingly made mistakes in the past I can only see now.  The same holds true now for the re-written heretics.

[Pacifien]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
No, in 300 years time, Geth Windows will still be jealous of Geth OSX being so rad and cool  while Geth OSX feels Geth Windows perspective is stale and neither trusts Geth Linux's security protocols.

Not true. The Geth have reached consensus on Wndows. And even the Heretics don't use them!

Windows was introduced by the Geth as a joke upon organics. It ranks right up there with the one they played on the salarians.

[Pwener2313]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
I think that after the 300 years of "freedom" the all Geth were the same, when it comes to basic processing.

No, in 300 years time, Geth Windows will still be jealous of Geth OSX being so rad and cool  while Geth OSX feels Geth Windows perspective is stale and neither trusts Geth Linux's security protocols.

Not true. The Geth have reached consensus on Wndows. And even the Heretics don't use them!

Really? That's what are you are talking about?

[gorrillasnake]

Geth Introduced The PT cruser to the Salarians

Pacifien wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
No, in 300 years time, Geth Windows will still be jealous of Geth OSX being so rad and cool  while Geth OSX feels Geth Windows perspective is stale and neither trusts Geth Linux's security protocols.

Not true. The Geth have reached consensus on Wndows. And even the Heretics don't use them!

Windows was introduced by the Geth as a joke upon organics. It ranks right up there with the one they played on the salarians.

[Pacifien]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Again, they're looking at that memory differently now, as if time and experience changed it.  Now they see it as a mistake because their perceptions have changed.  I willingly made mistakes in the past I can only see now.  The same holds true now for the re-written heretics.

In one post you're saying the memories will be lost, this one you're saying they'll be perceived differently. You think like an organic.

The Heretics did A, B, and C because it believed in D. Now it believes in E. It still did A, B, and C. If it believes in E, why did it do A, B, and C? Legion says that with the rewrite, what they'll lose is perspective. They won't know why they did A, B, and C. Part of understanding one did a mistake is that one has an understanding of what one did and why it shouldn't have done it. Legion does not understand why the Heretics act the way they do. Rewrite is a shortcut bypassing understanding and going straight for the conclusion another entity wanted.

[Zulu_DFA]

Pacifien wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
No, in 300 years time, Geth Windows will still be jealous of Geth OSX being so rad and cool  while Geth OSX feels Geth Windows perspective is stale and neither trusts Geth Linux's security protocols.

Not true. The Geth have reached consensus on Wndows. And even the Heretics don't use them!

Windows was introduced by the Geth as a joke upon organics. It ranks right up there with the one they played on the salarians.

You bet!

[Legbiter]

Making moral choices via blowing stuff up or not is difficult for me because I...well, I like blowing stuff up. So KABOOM go the Heretics.

[Zulu_DFA]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Also what I've already tried to get to, is that Legion calls the organics' fear of the Geth a "hardware error".

Thus, it's a possible explanation, that after the contact with Sovereign the Heretics simply began to fear the organics.

Again, Legion is a moron. "Fear" is not a hardware error. Fear is very rational and even life-saving response. The geth certainly didn't start to fear organics just because of Sovereign. They were hostile and xenophobic long before.

That said, you might have a point that a factor of some kind caused the divide. You are making a lot of assumptions though.

Fear is rational? Excuse me, but this is rubbish. Even if you mean that it's a good and useful evolutionary adaptation, it's still rubbish, because evolution is not "rational". Maybe you mean "caution", which is a behavioral stance, which may, or may not be rational depending on the circumstances and individuals involved.

Before Sovereign the Geth only bothered with self-defence. Arguably, they made an overkill once, arguably becasue of the lack of experience. But they only became aggressive after the contact with Sovereign. And at least in Humans aggression has been proved to be chemically similar to fear, making it pretty much a "flip-side of the same coin". That's why there actually is a point to slapping different insecurities onto dominance-leaning people (such as TIM, for instance). The trick here is that nothing is bad just because it's a bit irrational. Therefore, no point in calling fear rational to justify its usefulness. For example, the black&yellow warning patterns are meant to induce cautions stance on people withough any thought process involved. It's been proven that even toddlers react to them as inteded: they instantly become afraid. The guess is that only those of our monkey ancestors who had this irrational fear of black&yellow were quick enough to escape being eaten by the leopards in Africa some 20 million years ago.
It is OK for us fleshy things to be afraid and to be aggressive. It is not OK to lose your mind over it.

Also, Legion is a bit naive, I can give you that. I can't understand those people who are ready to go on any kind of folly justifying it by "Legion says so." Most of the time they misinterpret Legion though.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 mars 2011 - 11:35 .