139 réponses à ce sujet

[billybobjones]

JamieCOTC wrote...

"Bad" is of course subjective. I actually enjoyed some elements of DA2, mostly the development of Hawke as a character. But to get on topic, my "bad" ME3 would be rushing the game, adding multiplayer, making it more of a shooter than it already is, further streamlining the RPG elements of the game, simplifying combat and tactics even further, and more railroading/less choices.

To be fair, DA2 was rushed and there in lies its biggest problem. Certainly there is concern that ME3 might be rushed, but the quality of DLC leads me to believe the game is in good hands. Multiplayer and "the illusion of choice" are really my two biggest unknown concerns. MP is self explanatory, but "illusion of choice" means that no matter what path Shepard takes, the outcome will be the same. ME2 was like this to a certain degree. One of the reasons KOTOR is hailed as such a great game is that there are so many directions, both big and small, that game can go. I would like to see BW return that style of play, but if they keep it in the steady direction as in ME2, I will have no real complaints.

Look, plain and simple the outcome is always going to be the same if the developers have any intention of making a sequel. Mass Effect 1? You always ended up killing soverign, and there was always a new council, whether it was human or not. Don't even bring up DAO. As soon as that game was finished I predicted massive fanboy rage, because they threw in so many little text blurb endings that it would be impossible to flesh them out to any degree.

There is ALWAYS illusion of choice, and it was always there. Nostalgia blinds you to this fact in older games, and your unrealistic expectations make you impossible to please in future games.

[Lukertin]

merrick97 wrote...

I dont know how why anyone DOESNT expect some sort of Deus Ex Machina ending since they have to have some way to beat the Reapers. Im not saying Im in favor of it, but they seem to have written themselves into a corner.

What if it's an unfinished ending?  Like, the Reaper invasion is pushed back, but the Reapers retreat to some corner of the galaxy to regroup.

I actually find it hard to imagine that they would make a game where the Reapers are believably completely demolished

[snowman20x]

for me limiting the entire or a vast majority of the game to earth would be a big let down, also making all the mass effect 2 squadies irrelevant would be very disappointing. then the obvious rushing, poor quality, etc.

[Silmane]

Lukertin wrote...

merrick97 wrote...

I dont know how why anyone DOESNT expect some sort of Deus Ex Machina ending since they have to have some way to beat the Reapers. Im not saying Im in favor of it, but they seem to have written themselves into a corner.

What if it's an unfinished ending?  Like, the Reaper invasion is pushed back, but the Reapers retreat to some corner of the galaxy to regroup.

I actually find it hard to imagine that they would make a game where the Reapers are believably completely demolished

That's the whole point of the story: To stop something that has been going on for tens of milions of years. 

The Protheans started the destruction of the Reapers and now we'll finish it. 

The Reapers need to be taken out in ME3. In a well thought out way that isn't so drowned in cliches that we can all see it coming from a mile away. 

[Bowdz]

merrick97 wrote...

I dont know how why anyone DOESNT expect some sort of Deus Ex Machina ending since they have to have some way to beat the Reapers. Im not saying Im in favor of it, but they seem to have written themselves into a corner.

I agree. As much as I love Mass Effect 2, I feel like they really missed a golden opportunity to expound on the Reapers and actively have Shepard rallying allies or searching for a legitiment advantage over the Reapers. I REALLY hope that Bioware surprises me and pulls out a sequence that connects ME, ME2, and ME3 and does not feel contrived, but I have a bad feeling that I will be let down.

[CmdrKankrelat]

Kind of an odd-ball one for me:

Finding out that religion was developed as another tool of control by the Reapers. Why? Because "our gods were aliens" is a hackneyed trope by now. BioWare is above that. Now, finding out that the Reapers manipulate the religious impulse native to sapient species and misdirect it for their own purposes, now that would be interesting. But setting up belief systems themselves as another rail for organic societies to follow, uh-uh, no.

[Lukertin]

CmdrKankrelat wrote...

Kind of an odd-ball one for me:

Finding out that religion was developed as another tool of control by the Reapers. Why? Because "our gods were aliens" is a hackneyed trope by now. BioWare is above that. Now, finding out that the Reapers manipulate the religious impulse native to sapient species and misdirect it for their own purposes, now that would be interesting. But setting up belief systems themselves as another rail for organic societies to follow, uh-uh, no.

Thankfully I don't think this will happen, since you have religions like the Enkindlers, which worship the Protheans, I think the Turians are more philosophical than religious, and since all major ancient Earth religions are dead it would be moronic to suggest that the Abrahamic and Eastern religious were manipulated by the Reapers.

Ok, I can see the concept of reincarnation being a tool of the Reapers but beyond that, it wouldn't even make sense

[mjh417]

1. Not telling us the origins and motives of the Reapers
2. Making ME2 feel pointless by not having all the squad-mates return as ME3 squad-mates or at the least major story players.
3. Not making the story branch significantly with many different endings and possibilities based on major decisions made in the game and also in ME1 and 2, such would mean Bioware made no good on the promise of building this as a trilogy in the first place.
4. Not making it absolutely EPIC!!!!! It needs to feel from start to finish like the world is about to end and only Shepard can save it. Rallying the galaxy to fight the Reapers, and then coming to the battle on Earth needs to feel like it makes The Return of the King look like a daytime PBS show in terms of epicness. The Suicide mission in ME2 and the Battle at the Citadel in ME1 feel like child's play in comparison to the climax of ME3
5a. A deus ex machina. If ME3 is about rallying the various species to come and stop the Reapers as a united front, then that is what should be the driving force to stop the Reapers.
5b. Making the army of Reapers a bunch of easily destroyable jokes. Even all the armies of the Galaxy should be nearly crushed under their prawns as if they are nothing, because to the Reapers, they are nothing
5c. Making Shepard and crew do nothing while the armies sacrifice their all in the battle. The point of all this is that Shepard and his crew need to do something big to finally stop the Reapers and save the day, but it can't be some secret weapon out of left field, and it can't be without great sacrifice. The solution needs to involve one mega final mission and it needs to come with a big end changing decision.
6. Not giving closure to your surviving squad's stories by the end, especially your love interest.
7a. Not having large open worlds with vehicular exploration similar to ME1's main story worlds and ME2's Overlord
7b. Not having the full Citadel (All of ME1's and ME2's plus maybe more)
7c. Not having more Homeworlds
7d. Not having the full galaxy map with all descriptions (all of ME1 and 2's plus tons of new in ME3)
8. Not making the armor, weapons, upgrades, and skills system more dynamic and transparent, or another words, not delivering on the promise of bringing more of the RPG back after ME2's strip down
9. Not improving the shooter controls and gameplay, it needs to be more on par with Gears of War, ME2 did an awesome job getting it to feel like an intese shooter, but ME 3 needs it to be better
10a. Not giving the player a ton more information on the universe within the story and from the character's mouths
10b. Not having the full voiced Codex (all of ME1 and 2's voice entries plus a lot more new ones)

Modifié par mjh417, 31 mars 2011 - 02:26 .

[Volus Warlord]

EA.

[Chuvvy]

The short dev time it has. We saw what it did to DA2. Also the implementation of multiplayer. Not just because I hate the idea. With a short dev time and them implementing something alien (no pun intended) to them the best we could hope for is that only one part of the game is mediocre.

[CmdrKankrelat]

Lukertin wrote...

Thankfully I don't think this will happen, since you have religions like the Enkindlers, which worship the Protheans, I think the Turians are more philosophical than religious, and since all major ancient Earth religions are dead it would be moronic to suggest that the Abrahamic and Eastern religious were manipulated by the Reapers.

Ok, I can see the concept of reincarnation being a tool of the Reapers but beyond that, it wouldn't even make sense

I'm pretty sure you're right, but given the presence of this trope in another big-name series (*cough*AssassinsCreed*cough*), ME doesn't need it. 

Btw, the "major ancient Earth religions" aren't actually dead in the ME universe.  Bruised due to the shock of the Mars discoveries, yes, but very much alive.  I followed Cerberus Daily News for a while, and while it was still being updated by BioWare and thus canon, there were two articles on "Leo XIV," who is pope during the events of ME, so Roman Catholicism is still alive and kickin'.  There was also an article on Passover, so Judaism is still on the map, and the article on Christmas explicitly mentioned that it is still religiously observed.  The articles also mentioned acts of religious toleration on the part of these religions towards aliens.  An asari on Illium even says "You can't even figure out your own religions," suggesting that theology is part of human academic culture and social fabric.  As a result, there is/was just a faint possibility that BioWare could spring this one.  Fortunately, I think you are right in saying that the chances of that are vanishingly small.   

[JamieCOTC]

Metroidbum wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

"Bad" is of course subjective. I actually enjoyed some elements of DA2, mostly the development of Hawke as a character. But to get on topic, my "bad" ME3 would be rushing the game, adding multiplayer, making it more of a shooter than it already is, further streamlining the RPG elements of the game, simplifying combat and tactics even further, and more railroading/less choices.

To be fair, DA2 was rushed and there in lies its biggest problem. Certainly there is concern that ME3 might be rushed, but the quality of DLC leads me to believe the game is in good hands. Multiplayer and "the illusion of choice" are really my two biggest unknown concerns. MP is self explanatory, but "illusion of choice" means that no matter what path Shepard takes, the outcome will be the same. ME2 was like this to a certain degree. One of the reasons KOTOR is hailed as such a great game is that there are so many directions, both big and small, that game can go. I would like to see BW return that style of play, but if they keep it in the steady direction as in ME2, I will have no real complaints.

Look, plain and simple the outcome is always going to be the same if the developers have any intention of making a sequel. Mass Effect 1? You always ended up killing soverign, and there was always a new council, whether it was human or not. Don't even bring up DAO. As soon as that game was finished I predicted massive fanboy rage, because they threw in so many little text blurb endings that it would be impossible to flesh them out to any degree.

There is ALWAYS illusion of choice, and it was always there. Nostalgia blinds you to this fact in older games, and your unrealistic expectations make you impossible to please in future games.

It's only hearsay, but I've heard there will be multiple endings to ME3.  We'll see.  But, whatever. 

[CmdrKankrelat]

mjh417 wrote...
7d. Not having the full galaxy map with all descriptions (all of ME1 and 2's plus tons of new in ME3)

I like your suggestions, though I think you'd be best not counting this one as one of your reasons to judge ME3.  There's LOTS of new areas to explore, returning to the ones we've already done would make them feel like burned-over districts in my opinion.  I'd rather they put more effort into the homeworlds, which I agree would be AWESOME! 

Fortunately, I think the series is moving in the direction you want - Hammerhead still has issues, but Overlord showed us BioWare's improvements to open environments.  Also, if Arrival is presaging anything in ME3, it's that sacrifices will be made, and they will be big. 

[CmdrKankrelat]

JamieCOTC wrote...
It's only hearsay, but I've heard there will be multiple endings to ME3.  We'll see.  But, whatever. 

Casey Hudson (got this from the ME Wiki, which cites its source) said they can let the game diverge "wildly" since they aren't worried about importation into another installment.  I of course believe actions instead of words, so we'll see. 

In the (paraphrased) words of Miranda, we're all expecting you to do the impossible, BioWare.  No pressure!

[billybobjones]

JamieCOTC wrote...

Metroidbum wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

"Bad" is of course subjective. I actually enjoyed some elements of DA2, mostly the development of Hawke as a character. But to get on topic, my "bad" ME3 would be rushing the game, adding multiplayer, making it more of a shooter than it already is, further streamlining the RPG elements of the game, simplifying combat and tactics even further, and more railroading/less choices.

To be fair, DA2 was rushed and there in lies its biggest problem. Certainly there is concern that ME3 might be rushed, but the quality of DLC leads me to believe the game is in good hands. Multiplayer and "the illusion of choice" are really my two biggest unknown concerns. MP is self explanatory, but "illusion of choice" means that no matter what path Shepard takes, the outcome will be the same. ME2 was like this to a certain degree. One of the reasons KOTOR is hailed as such a great game is that there are so many directions, both big and small, that game can go. I would like to see BW return that style of play, but if they keep it in the steady direction as in ME2, I will have no real complaints.

Look, plain and simple the outcome is always going to be the same if the developers have any intention of making a sequel. Mass Effect 1? You always ended up killing soverign, and there was always a new council, whether it was human or not. Don't even bring up DAO. As soon as that game was finished I predicted massive fanboy rage, because they threw in so many little text blurb endings that it would be impossible to flesh them out to any degree.

There is ALWAYS illusion of choice, and it was always there. Nostalgia blinds you to this fact in older games, and your unrealistic expectations make you impossible to please in future games.

It's only hearsay, but I've heard there will be multiple endings to ME3.  We'll see.  But, whatever. 

Assuming ME3 is truly the last game in this particular continuity, it is a possibility due to the fact that they don't have to plan for future games. I suspect we will see a lot more "big decisions" for this reason alone. But in games that are not stand alone or series ending, it is hard to do.

[bambooxfox]

I don't want to see recycled environments. I'm kind of used to them in Dragon Age, but ME2 having completely different stages for even the minor side missions was a huge treat after the copy-paste interiors of ME1. I would hate to see ME3 take a step backwards in this regard.

Recycled environments wouldn't break my enjoyment of the game, though. What would break it are at least one of the following:

- Finding out that the key to defeating the Reapers is to go hunt for some previously unmentioned MacGuffin. Granted, I have a hard time seeing how ME3 can pan out without resorting to one, but I trust that the ME writers have more imagination than I do.

- A forced "Shepard sacrifices him/herself" ending. It's fine if such a sacrifice is optional, but I don't want to be forced to die a la the original Fallout 3 ending. Again, I'm 95% certain the devs know better than to pull this kind of stunt, but you never know.

Otherwise, I'm pretty chill about what gameplay elements and story handwaves I'll accept. Looking at some especially strong remarks that have popped up on the BSN, I think I'm a relatively easy fan to please.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

1. Abandoning good ol' roleplay for more shooty-killy.

2. Abandoning good ol' shooty-killy for "classical" RPG elements.

3. Abandoning the old squad because teh ebul variables will get u.

4. Abandoning continuity for a "new vision" of the franchise.

5. Abandoning interest in the rest of the galaxy because humenz r so speshul.

6. Abandoning customization and nonlinear level design AGAIN for more "streamlining."

7. Multiplayer.

Spot on.

[JamieCOTC]

Metroidbum wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Metroidbum wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

"Bad" is of course subjective. I actually enjoyed some elements of DA2, mostly the development of Hawke as a character. But to get on topic, my "bad" ME3 would be rushing the game, adding multiplayer, making it more of a shooter than it already is, further streamlining the RPG elements of the game, simplifying combat and tactics even further, and more railroading/less choices.

To be fair, DA2 was rushed and there in lies its biggest problem. Certainly there is concern that ME3 might be rushed, but the quality of DLC leads me to believe the game is in good hands. Multiplayer and "the illusion of choice" are really my two biggest unknown concerns. MP is self explanatory, but "illusion of choice" means that no matter what path Shepard takes, the outcome will be the same. ME2 was like this to a certain degree. One of the reasons KOTOR is hailed as such a great game is that there are so many directions, both big and small, that game can go. I would like to see BW return that style of play, but if they keep it in the steady direction as in ME2, I will have no real complaints.

Look, plain and simple the outcome is always going to be the same if the developers have any intention of making a sequel. Mass Effect 1? You always ended up killing soverign, and there was always a new council, whether it was human or not. Don't even bring up DAO. As soon as that game was finished I predicted massive fanboy rage, because they threw in so many little text blurb endings that it would be impossible to flesh them out to any degree.

There is ALWAYS illusion of choice, and it was always there. Nostalgia blinds you to this fact in older games, and your unrealistic expectations make you impossible to please in future games.

It's only hearsay, but I've heard there will be multiple endings to ME3.  We'll see.  But, whatever. 

Assuming ME3 is truly the last game in this particular continuity, it is a possibility due to the fact that they don't have to plan for future games. I suspect we will see a lot more "big decisions" for this reason alone. But in games that are not stand alone or series ending, it is hard to do.

The piece I read, Casey Hudson said that spin-offs would be set far enough away in the future that the outcome of ME3 would not matter much.  Still take it w/ a grain of salt as I can't find the link.  I understand what you are saying and agree to a certain extent, but it only seems to be getting worse. 

[The Chosen Predator]

gawd just make it a RPG again - allow us to have in depth dialog discussions instead of 24/7 action I'd assume being diplomatic for the final game will be crucial solving things without blowing **** up be yet in an entertaining and grabbing manner would be awesome

[Razgriz9327]

CmdrKankrelat wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...
It's only hearsay, but I've heard there will be multiple endings to ME3.  We'll see.  But, whatever. 

Casey Hudson (got this from the ME Wiki, which cites its source) said they can let the game diverge "wildly" since they aren't worried about importation into another installment.  I of course believe actions instead of words, so we'll see. 

In the (paraphrased) words of Miranda, we're all expecting you to do the impossible, BioWare.  No pressure!

Second this... the thing i want most out of this game is wildly different possible endings. One where you sacrifice yourself, one where you lose, and the reapers start the cycle, one where you survive, ones i can't even imagine... replayability, based on decisions that go back to Mass 1...Of course, this is incredibly difficult and expensive... no pressure at all

[Aedan_Cousland]

1.If development is rushed and we get an unfinished, buggy mess that is full of recycled content.

2. If Bioware/EA decides to dumb down the third game, strip it of RPG elements, and make it more linear like a straight up shooter with the player having less choice in how the game plays out.

3. If the game ends without the Reaper conflict being fully resolved.

4. Multiplayer: While there are many people here who would like to see it in ME3, it would succeed in taking time, money and resources away from development of the single player campaign. The main game would end up short and unsatisfying, no matter how 'cool' the multiplayer turned out.

5. If it is anything like Dragon Age 2.

[Anihilus]

Heres what would make ME3 bad... if it was cancelled

[Spectre_ John_Shepard]

1. Choices from ME1 and ME2 are irrelevant/don't matter.

Pretty much it.

[Lukertin]

CmdrKankrelat wrote...
Btw, the "major ancient Earth religions" aren't actually dead in the ME universe.  Bruised due to the shock of the Mars discoveries, yes, but very much alive.  I followed Cerberus Daily News for a while, and while it was still being updated by BioWare and thus canon, there were two articles on "Leo XIV," who is pope during the events of ME, so Roman Catholicism is still alive and kickin'.  There was also an article on Passover, so Judaism is still on the map, and the article on Christmas explicitly mentioned that it is still religiously observed.  The articles also mentioned acts of religious toleration on the part of these religions towards aliens.  An asari on Illium even says "You can't even figure out your own religions," suggesting that theology is part of human academic culture and social fabric.  As a result, there is/was just a faint possibility that BioWare could spring this one.  Fortunately, I think you are right in saying that the chances of that are vanishingly small. 

The Abrahamic religions are not 'ancient'.  By ancient I mean Mayan, Aztec, Incan, Greek, Egyptian, Norse, Celtic, and the various African pantheisms.

[habitat 67]

If they made it like the Star Wars Holiday Special, complete with Lumpy and characters breaking into song.