109 réponses à ce sujet

[Musou1776]

Bones, I'm not trying to discourage anyone. I asked for concrete examples involving math and nobody has come up with anything.

[SuicidalBaby]

Taken from another thread:

At 13/20/30/40 Magic the damage for each (upgraded) spell without a staff is:

Chain Lightning - 16/28/44/60
Stone Fist - 30/55/85/115
Tempest - 3/6/9/13
Hemorrhage - 34/61/94/128
Fist of the Maker - 9/16/25/34
Spirit Bolt - 20/36/57/77
Walking Bomb - 13/24/38/51
Dispel - 13/24/38/51
Paralyzing Prison - 72/129/201/273
Winter's Grasp - 22/40/63/85
Cone of Cold - 15/27/43/58
Fireball - 7/12/19/26
Firestorm - 9/16/25/34

At 40/50 Magic with a 42 damage staff the numbers are:

Chain Lightning - 179/195
Stone Fist - 345/376
Tempest - 38/42
Hemorrhage - 384/417
Fist of the Maker - 102/111
Spirit Bolt - 230/250
Walking Bomb - 154/167
Dispel - 154/167
Paralyzing Prison - 819/890
Winter's Grasp - 256/278
Cone of Cold - 174/189
Fireball - 77/83
Firestorm - 102/111

Actually, it looks like the increase greatly diminishes with a weapon equipped or after a specific Magic level.  The gains are definitely not 20% going from 40 Magic to 50 Magic. Looks more like 9% - 10% or approximately 1% per point.  That's entirely excluding end of tree bonuses or bonuses from gear however.

for easy viewing:

Gloxgasm wrote...

This isn't exact since I don't have an easy +1 magic item to throw on but here it goes:
Spirit Bolt w/o a staff (default is 4damage) = 77 damage
Spirit Bolt with 29 damage staff = 178
Spriit Bolt with 31 Damage staff is 186
2 staff damage = 8 spirit bolt damage
1 = 4
77 - default staff = 61
Spirit Bolt + 22 damage and 2 magic staff = 154
154 - base - 22(4) = 7
So 2 magic is roughly 3-4 damage depending on game rounding.

Lets take base spirit bolt
Average Damage = Noncrit(77+4magic) + .5[Noncrit(77+4magic)]*[Dex/100]

I stuck it into excel starting at 1 magic :49 dex and ran it to 49 magic: 1 dex.
The highest average damage was at 49 magic, 1 dex.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 02 avril 2011 - 08:58 .

[Musou1776]

Those numbers indicate a linear relationship and serve to confirm what Gloxgasm posted and what I saw in my testing and number crunching last night.

[SuicidalBaby]

So pacticular items have a set value toward this specific ideal if they returned at least a threshold of +critical % and damage? Forcing this to a search for the highest return off an armor piece for minimal investment. Or to just say keep your "critical" addtions to a limited use of Trinkets & Runes. (aside from Valiant Aura)

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 02 avril 2011 - 09:04 .

[Musou1776]

What I meant by math was numbers showing how you can do superior total average damage with a lower base damage and lower elemental boost and higher crit chance/crit damage (dex/cun/gear) versus higher base damage and high elemental boost with base crit chance/crit damage (magic/gear).

[SuicidalBaby]

I think the value can be derived from the information provided.

[Gloxgasm]

Bones40 wrote...

Musou1776 wrote...

Seems like Gloxgasm showed with math at the start of the thread that every point that comes out of magic and is put in dex makes you do LESS damage over the long term. Since then nobody has shown evidence to the contrary showing direct comparisons of average damage.

Given that each point of magic seems to be .5 base staff damage and even higher amounts of base damage for spells plus boosts attack while OTOH each point of dex only increases crit chance by 1% the math seems to prove that this is a dead end. Had to dig up my old calculator from precald

I'm not on either side of the argument but I'm fairly certain that Gloxgasm's numbers were simply put into a straight spread sheet completely neglecting the diminishing returns effect.  I'm not expert on it, but that point you invest to take magic to 79 from 78 nets you virtually nothing.  Anything over 50 is that way, I hear.  So why not put those points into something that does actually increase dps?  

Why discourage people from experimenting to find new viable builds and playstyles?  I'm very interested to see if this works because more options is always better than less.

I make no claim that my numbers are in any way accurate. If someone would kindly post damage at varying magic levels, I'll redo a more precise calculation.

[Gloxgasm]

Ignore

Modifié par Gloxgasm, 02 avril 2011 - 09:48 .

[rumination888]

Gloxgasm wrote...

I make no claim that my numbers are in any way accurate. If someone would kindly post damage at varying magic levels, I'll redo a more precise calculation.

All abilities, including spells, are damage multipliers.
You simply take the raw damage(the sum of weapon + stat) on your character sheet and multiply by an ability's multiplier.

So let's say your character sheet shows a damage score of 50(obtained from a variety of different staff + magic combinations).
Upgraded Spirit Bolt has a multiplier of 4.02. (dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Spirit_Bolt)
The damage you see when you hover over the ability would read "201".

[Gloxgasm]

rumination888 wrote...

Gloxgasm wrote...

I make no claim that my numbers are in any way accurate. If someone would kindly post damage at varying magic levels, I'll redo a more precise calculation.

All abilities, including spells, are damage multipliers.
You simply take the raw damage(the sum of weapon + stat) on your character sheet and multiply by an ability's multiplier.

So let's say your character sheet shows a damage score of 50(obtained from a variety of different staff + magic combinations).
Upgraded Spirit Bolt has a multiplier of 4.02. (dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Spirit_Bolt)
The damage you see when you hover over the ability would read "201".

Never occured to me. Let me run some numbers.

[IN1]

rumination888 wrote...

Gloxgasm wrote...

I make no claim that my numbers are in any way accurate. If someone would kindly post damage at varying magic levels, I'll redo a more precise calculation.

All abilities, including spells, are damage multipliers.
You simply take the raw damage(the sum of weapon + stat) on your character sheet and multiply by an ability's multiplier.

So let's say your character sheet shows a damage score of 50(obtained from a variety of different staff + magic combinations).
Upgraded Spirit Bolt has a multiplier of 4.02. (dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Spirit_Bolt)
The damage you see when you hover over the ability would read "201".

Pray excuse me for being shamelessly anal, it should be *4.04. It's 2.693 + 1.3465, technically

[rumination888]

IN1 wrote...

Pray excuse me for being shamelessly anal, it should be *4.04. It's 2.693 + 1.3465, technically

I hate you. <_<
/jest

[IN1]

rumination888 wrote...

IN1 wrote...

Pray excuse me for being shamelessly anal, it should be *4.04. It's 2.693 + 1.3465, technically

I hate you. <_<

/jest

/anal mode off

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

You are going to have to lay out your assumptions if you are going to try to do a realistic calculation. How many different spell trees will the mage have and what are they?

Things that affect all damage type spells:
1) the base dps of the equipped staff
2) the Magic stat
3) difficulty mode:some spells can't be used to full effect without damaging your party. You have have to include fewer enemies in the area of effect, delay casting it,  or skip the spell altogether
4) +%crit damage if a critical occurs

NO armor in the game helps ALL damaging spells. The Robe of Cleanliness helps fire, ice, and electricity based spells. It is pretty much impossible to get both the Robe and Final Thought. The most common bonus on mage armor is +%fire damage. +%Spirit gear can be bought in the Gallows.

Assuming you stop investing in Magic at 42 and Willpower at 32 you will have 40 or so points to invest in other stats. Investing in dex and cunning would allow you wear some rogue gear to boost your +%to crit/crit damage, helping ALL spells.

Is that the best way to go?  I certainly can't say but I am willing to try it out. What I do know since I have played a NM mage who pumped Magic up to 89 is that with pumped Magic your damage is still going to suck.

Now, can anyone propose a formula based on all the different factors (including a decrease in the effectiveness of spells that do friendly fire?)

[Gloxgasm]

Simple lazy math: Base Multiplier used 4.04
20, (I changed 36 to 37) (This alters the very first term only. I claim rounding in game error)
30, Increase of 4.95049505 Base Damage (30 vs 20)
40, Increase of 4.95049505 Base Damage (40 vs 30)
50, Increase of 4.95049505 Base Damage (250 vs 230 damage stat)

As you can see, that is highly consistent and I feel there are no diminishing returns for spirit bolt.

Modifié par Gloxgasm, 02 avril 2011 - 09:58 .

[Musou1776]

Not really. Need information on the enemy side of damage calc to know what the outcome of lower base damage attacks with more frequent crits versus higher base damage attacks with less frequent crits. On top of that gear selection with trade offs between boosting crit chance and crit damage versus boosting elemental damage becomes an issue. Very complicated. I wish IN1 was participating, he would be bringing in much more substance to a thread filled with lots of speculation.

[Gloxgasm]

A magic vs dex for auto attacks will have similar results as for spells since without a high attack chance you will be slaughtered by glancing blows.

100% crit at 50% boost with 20% hit is much much worse then 0 crit with 50% hit staff attacks only.

Modifié par Gloxgasm, 02 avril 2011 - 10:12 .

[Gloxgasm]

If someone would post:
10/20/30/40/50 Spirit Bolt damage No staff
10/20/30/40/50 Spirit Bolt damage No staff + Spirit Mastery
10/20/30/40/50 Attack Rating No staff
I would make a full formula and test various levels of Mag/Dex/Cun but I am pretty sure 1/0/0 will be the superior.

[IN1]

Musou1776 wrote...

Not really. Need information on the enemy side of damage calc to know what the outcome of lower base damage attacks with more frequent crits versus higher base damage attacks with less frequent crits. On top of that gear selection with trade offs between boosting crit chance and crit damage versus boosting elemental damage becomes an issue. Very complicated. I wish IN1 was participating, he would be bringing in much more substance to a thread filled with lots of speculation.

Thanks for the compliment, but I'm not a mage player (never was, in fact). Therefore, my knowledge regarding mage-related game mechanics is extremely limited I think Grumpy and rumination are both very competent mage players, and they surely prefer cold hard facts to speculations. Like Meredith

Modifié par IN1, 02 avril 2011 - 10:23 .

[Atmosfear3]

IMO you would need a very high percentage crit in order to fully realize the benefits of the increased DPS. Considering how long spell cooldowns are, it is pretty painful if you Winter's Grasp/Disoriented Spirit Bolt/whatever something and RNG decided it didn't want to award you the crit. On the other hand, aoe spells that have a persistent effect like Firestorm and Tempest could benefit much more from having higher crit as those spells can hit multiple times with one casting.

[Gloxgasm]

I take it back. 25% damage increase applied anywhere is a 25% damage increase due to simple AxBxC = AxCxB

There is no question on how it works.

[Musou1776]

The effect of a glance is gonna be important on the autoattack side (I believe spells and talents always hit full strength), plus what determines how spell to spell and shot to shot your damage will vary somewhat?  Need to know the formula for determining damage for auto attacking and for spells and or abilites.

Modifié par Musou1776, 02 avril 2011 - 11:19 .

[Musou1776]

IN1 wrote...
Thanks for the compliment, but I'm not a mage player (never was, in fact). Therefore, my knowledge regarding mage-related game mechanics is extremely limited I think Grumpy and rumination are both very competent mage players, and they surely prefer cold hard facts to speculations. Like Meredith

Ah, well mostly what I meant was you come into discussions where people aren't considering all the factors and point out that what they were looking at as a 2 or 3 variable problem really involves 5 or 6 or more.

Rumination looks like he is doing a bunch of playing around with it, would like him to post more numbers if he has them.

[Gloxgasm]

You don't need any formula because spells and attacks hit an interval around their base damage. The average will always be what is shown (not counting resist bonus/penalties). You need to basically take 30 samples and compute a sample variance if you want to go hardcore in depth.

Auto attacking is just Chance to Hit * [(Non Crit(Staff + % bonuses) + Crit Chance/100(Non Crit(Staff + % bonuses)] + Glancing%[1/10th all that up there]


You seem to be making things overly complicated when an answer has already been giving. All of your gripes have been either irrelevant or further proving the answer. Magic is best.

[rumination888]

Gloxgasm wrote...
Magic is best.

This pretty much sums it up. If you wear +crit damage items, then dexterity becomes better than magic at certain points. For example, with 50% crit damage and 100 base damage, alternating between dex and magic is better than full magic. At 100% crit damage, the point where you should alternate between dex and magic is 50 base damage.

As you can see from the examples, that doesn't occur until near the very end of the game, hence; magic is best.