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[SciOps]

I have been wondering about this while browsing through this forum.

In no way does arrival contradict the ending of ME2 or ME

My reasoning ME1

You beat saren and the reaper at the citadel stopping the invasion from happening that second. Giving you time to prepare and learn more about the Reapers.

No contradiction there.

My reasoning ME2

You destroy the collector base with the collectors being controlled by a reaper trying to create a human verison of a reaper within the galaxy that they can use to start the galaxy life cycle over. Hense why HarB says they will find another way.

Ending of the ME2: Shows the reaper fleet heading towards the galaxy their new plan.

The reaper invasion was going to happen from the ending of ME1 to ME3 you were just stalling them from reaching the galaxy at that certain point giving you time to prepare and learn more about them.... All this is setting up for ME3 when they finnally start attacking within the galaxy. Arrival fits perfectly within the story thus far because they are just entering the galaxy from what you saw at the end of ME2.

Did I miss some major game plot somewhere within my play throughs?

PS: They even tie into account that if play the arrival DLC around the start of a new ME2 play through that since you destroyed that relay it could take months or a few years untill the reapers will reach a civialized cluster they can attack.

Modifié par SciOps, 31 mars 2011 - 01:12 .

[Casuist]

... because people object when assumptions they make about the plot in-between games are not incorporated into the story. It's natural for us all to fill in the blanks where there's room to do so. Once the heat of the moment passes, things will settle.

rambling edit:
the few months to few years quote is kinda silly though. They now have a definitive knowledge of the reapers arriving on the edge of the relay network. This should present a fairly exact estimate how much time is left before the next relay (unless it's not a known/scouted relay) is in range (time to blow up another?). I feel like the indeterminate time frame was to allow for different stages of ME2 in which the DLC could be played. I would have preferred to see it simply restricted to post-SM.

Modifié par Casuist, 31 mars 2011 - 01:18 .

[CmdrKankrelat]

Arcian wrote...

They think the human-reaper had an overarching importance on the return of the reapers. They thought it was going to be the new Sovereign.

However, as Arrival has proven to us, the reapers started to move at the end of ME1 rather than at the end of ME2 as everyone else thought. They think this renders the ME2 plot moot, because if they were already going the conventional way, why bother building a new vanguard?

Answer? That wasn't a vanguard. It was an experiment to see if using humans was viable in producing a reaper. That's why the collectors have been doing just that - collecting. They have spent centuries trying to figure out which species is the best for reaper-production. And thus, the human-reaper was a prototype, an experiment, a test. Nothing else.

Problem solved, plot-hole filled, argument ended. The story was just too subtle about its facts and too open for interpretation.

^ This.  Plus, the idea of being killed for an EXPERIMENT rather than for a weapon is, in my opinion, more horrifying.  YMMV, of course.

[Kaiser Shepard]

It doesn't necessarily make the ME2 plot moot, but as I said in my topic: actively preventing the Reapers' Arrival would've made for a more interesting endgame than fighting some unknown danger which now basically pales in comparison against Arrival.

[Gill Kaiser]

I thought that people said it contradicted ME2's ending only if you played it before the suicide mission.

It kind of does, too. Directly foiling the initial stage of the Reaper invasion makes the Collectors and their single Reaper foetus feel like an irrelevance. It doesn't make much narrative sense if you do Arrival first.

Modifié par Gill Kaiser, 31 mars 2011 - 01:35 .

[Anacronian Stryx]

CmdrKankrelat wrote...

Arcian wrote...

They think the human-reaper had an overarching importance on the return of the reapers. They thought it was going to be the new Sovereign.

However, as Arrival has proven to us, the reapers started to move at the end of ME1 rather than at the end of ME2 as everyone else thought. They think this renders the ME2 plot moot, because if they were already going the conventional way, why bother building a new vanguard?

Answer? That wasn't a vanguard. It was an experiment to see if using humans was viable in producing a reaper. That's why the collectors have been doing just that - collecting. They have spent centuries trying to figure out which species is the best for reaper-production. And thus, the human-reaper was a prototype, an experiment, a test. Nothing else.

Problem solved, plot-hole filled, argument ended. The story was just too subtle about its facts and too open for interpretation.

^ This.  Plus, the idea of being killed for an EXPERIMENT rather than for a weapon is, in my opinion, more horrifying.  YMMV, of course.

There is a extra use for the Reaper larvae, If you listen to all of Legions conversations you'll find out that the Reapers actually promised the Heretics a Reaper they could upload their conscious into, Now i don't believe in a second that the Reapers would actually honor such an agreement fully ..but they could use the larvae as proof for the Heretics that they were actually building something and thereby keep the agreement going for as long as they need. 

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

I think the ending of Arrival HELPS ME2's ending, especially if you play it as a leadin to the suicide mission (just before going into the relay, after abduction)  The conversation with the general is kinda cool in that it lets you get a good look at the jerk and it makes the collector thing "a little more personal", and also it just feels like a good narrative arc INTO the final cutscene of ME2.  (arrival is about stopping the relay before the reapers arrive, then you head into the omega 4 relay, do that mission, and then joker gives you the reaper intel as you stare into space with the shot of the reapers "arriving" ending the game

[Thargorichiban]

I was kind of thinking that the "months or years" to get to the next relay after Alpha was due to the fact that nobody knows what the capabilities of Reaper FTL drives are. For all the Alliance could know they could be twice as fast as conventional FTL drives in the MilkyWay or possibly ten times as fast.

[DPSSOC]

Thargorichiban wrote...

I was kind of thinking that the "months or years" to get to the next relay after Alpha was due to the fact that nobody knows what the capabilities of Reaper FTL drives are. For all the Alliance could know they could be twice as fast as conventional FTL drives in the MilkyWay or possibly ten times as fast.

This.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Thargorichiban wrote...

I was kind of thinking that the "months or years" to get to the next relay after Alpha was due to the fact that nobody knows what the capabilities of Reaper FTL drives are. For all the Alliance could know they could be twice as fast as conventional FTL drives in the MilkyWay or possibly ten times as fast.

Plus nobody have any idea where the next Alpha relay is...distance to travel is kind of important.

[JKoopman]

Arrival contradicts the ending of ME2 in that, if you play Arrival prior to the Suicide Mission, you're told that the Reapers have already reached the edge of the galaxy and the invasion is about to begin yet, when you then complete the Suicide Mission, you see the Reaper fleet apparently just "waking up" in dark space and still what appears to be several hundred thousand lightyears away.

Only if Arrival is played AFTER the Suicide Mission does it make sense and not break continuity.

[Anacronian Stryx]

JKoopman wrote...

Arrival contradicts the ending of ME2 in that, if you play Arrival prior to the Suicide Mission, you're told that the Reapers have already reached the edge of the galaxy and the invasion is about to begin yet, when you then complete the Suicide Mission, you see the Reaper fleet apparently just "waking up" in dark space and still what appears to be several hundred thousand lightyears away.

Only if Arrival is played AFTER the Suicide Mission does it make sense and not break continuity.

When exacly are they waking up?

Because it seems to me that Harby and Co is underway in the entire scene?

Sure a shadow is passing over them(probably from another reaper moving in front of the light coming from the galaxy) but i see no hibernating reapers waking up only moving ones.

Look here

P:S i know the link isn't in the best of quality but it was the best i could find - If you play the game in 1080p it is quite clear that the reapers are moving throughout the entire scene.

Modifié par Anacronian Stryx, 31 mars 2011 - 02:25 .

[HBC Dresden]

It does not contradict ME1's ending or ME2's ending (if done after the suicide mission), because Arrival was a consequence of the Reapers having to adapt:

The Alpha Relay was the Reapers' plan C to enter the Milky Way (plan A was Sovereign and the Citadel relay, plan B was something with the Collectors making a Human-Reaper or more to maybe try plan A again). I take it, I may be misinterpreting something, that in Arrival, the Reapers were flying to the Milky Way the slow way, no shortcuts, and the Viper System would be the first they would enter, hence why it is at the edge of the galaxy. Then they would use the Alpha Relay like a mini-Citadel relay and spread everywhere fast (the Alpha Relay has hidden controls, if you read the codex). Shep destroys the relay, so the Reapers will still fly into the system, but without an Alpha Relay to use. So, plan C comes about because Shep's suicide mission was successful taking out plan B "we must find another way" (makes no sense before).

mrsph wrote...

Then just don't do it before the Suicide Mission if it bothers you so much.

Dude, he was answering the OP, not complaining needlessly.

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

When exacly are they waking up?

Because it seems to me that Harby and Co is underway in the entire scene?

Sure
a shadow is passing over them(probably from another reaper moving in
front of the light coming from the galaxy) but i see no hibernating
reapers waking up only moving ones.

Look here

Forget waking up, Arrival assumes the Reapers are at the edge of the galaxy, which is why the Alpha Relay needs to be destroyed. At the end of ME2, they are NOT at the edge of the galaxy.

Modifié par HBC Dresden, 31 mars 2011 - 02:26 .

[Anacronian Stryx]

HBC Dresden wrote...

Forget waking up, Arrival assumes the Reapers are at the edge of the galaxy, which is why the Alpha Relay needs to be destroyed. At the end of ME2, they are NOT at the edge of the galaxy.

They ain't all that far away and a bit above - Though you can't see it in the frame but they look like they are above the  Scutum-Centarus Arm which is funny enough where we found the Alpha Relay.

http://images.wikia..../fd/Reapers.png

Modifié par Anacronian Stryx, 31 mars 2011 - 02:41 .

[Chuvvy]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

HBC Dresden wrote...

Forget waking up, Arrival assumes the Reapers are at the edge of the galaxy, which is why the Alpha Relay needs to be destroyed. At the end of ME2, they are NOT at the edge of the galaxy.

They ain't all that far away and a bit above - Though you can't see it in the frame but they look like they are above the  Scutum-Centarus Arm which is funny enough where we found the Alpha Relay.

http://images.wikia..../fd/Reapers.png

I don't find that funny it all.

[JThompson6577]

Arcian wrote...

They think the human-reaper had an overarching importance on the return of the reapers. They thought it was going to be the new Sovereign.

However, as Arrival has proven to us, the reapers started to move at the end of ME1 rather than at the end of ME2 as everyone else thought. They think this renders the ME2 plot moot, because if they were already going the conventional way, why bother building a new vanguard?

Answer? That wasn't a vanguard. It was an experiment to see if using humans was viable in producing a reaper. That's why the collectors have been doing just that - collecting. They have spent centuries trying to figure out which species is the best for reaper-production. And thus, the human-reaper was a prototype, an experiment, a test. Nothing else.

Problem solved, plot-hole filled, argument ended. The story was just too subtle about its facts and too open for interpretation.

It's the same argument as they made when they kept saying "ME2's plot is borken and full of holes."

Allow me to sum up, "WTF, the plot isn't going exactly where I expected and wanted it to go with the exact charecters I loved from the first game with the exact control system I'd like to play so it must be a failure!"

It's all just message board BS.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Slidell505 wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

HBC Dresden wrote...

Forget waking up, Arrival assumes the Reapers are at the edge of the galaxy, which is why the Alpha Relay needs to be destroyed. At the end of ME2, they are NOT at the edge of the galaxy.

They ain't all that far away and a bit above - Though you can't see it in the frame but they look like they are above the  Scutum-Centarus Arm which is funny enough where we found the Alpha Relay.

http://images.wikia..../fd/Reapers.png

I don't find that funny it all.

[JKoopman]

mrsph wrote...

Then just don't do it before the Suicide Mission if it bothers you so much.

Uh... I do. The OP asked how Arrival contradicted the ending of ME2. I explained how it can contradict the ending of ME2.

@Anacronian Stryx: Regardless, even if they're not just waking up, they're clearly nowhere near the edge of the galaxy, let alone actually in the galaxy as the ending of Arrival states (they were mere minutes from reaching the Alpha Relay, which was in the Viper cluter inside the galactic edge). You can see the entirety of the Milky Way from side to side in the ME2 ending cinematic. In order for that to be possible, the distance would have to be astronomical.

[Anacronian Stryx]

JKoopman wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Then just don't do it before the Suicide Mission if it bothers you so much.

Uh... I do. The OP asked how Arrival contradicted the ending of ME2. I explained how it can contradict the ending of ME2.

@Anacronian Stryx: Regardless, even if they're not just waking up, they're clearly nowhere near the edge of the galaxy, let alone actually in the galaxy as the ending of Arrival states (they were mere minutes from reaching the Alpha Relay, which was in the Viper cluter inside the galactic edge). You can see the entirety of the Milky Way from side to side in the ME2 ending cinematic. In order for that to be possible, the distance would have to be astronomical.

Compare these two pictures.

http://images.wikia..../fd/Reapers.png

http://pcgamingcorne...9/milkyway2.jpg

And you can see that in the topmost picture all you see is the core + plus the area around Novaria, You don't see the big spiral arm witch would be just a little below the Reapers.

[Thargorichiban]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Thargorichiban wrote...

I was kind of thinking that the "months or years" to get to the next relay after Alpha was due to the fact that nobody knows what the capabilities of Reaper FTL drives are. For all the Alliance could know they could be twice as fast as conventional FTL drives in the MilkyWay or possibly ten times as fast.

Plus nobody have any idea where the next Alpha relay is...distance to travel is kind of important.

Well, I kind of figured they could just use the nearest plain-old relay. Worst case scenario for the Reapers: they have to plot a few jumps to get to the Citadel/Earth.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Thargorichiban wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Thargorichiban wrote...

I was kind of thinking that the "months or years" to get to the next relay after Alpha was due to the fact that nobody knows what the capabilities of Reaper FTL drives are. For all the Alliance could know they could be twice as fast as conventional FTL drives in the MilkyWay or possibly ten times as fast.

Plus nobody have any idea where the next Alpha relay is...distance to travel is kind of important.

Well, I kind of figured they could just use the nearest plain-old relay. Worst case scenario for the Reapers: they have to plot a few jumps to get to the Citadel/Earth.

You're probably right.

[Inutaisho7996]

Casuist wrote...

the few months to few years quote is kinda silly though. They now have a definitive knowledge of the reapers arriving on the edge of the relay network. This should present a fairly exact estimate how much time is left before the next relay (unless it's not a known/scouted relay) is in range (time to blow up another?)

They know when the reapers will arrive because Object Rho's energy pulses are coming closer together, and they calculated when they would become a constant signal. They can't measure how far away the reapers are, so they can't take measurements in regular intervals to measure their speed.