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Why are people saying Arrival contradicts ME2 ending?


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#51
88mphSlayer

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Arcian wrote...

They think the human-reaper had an overarching importance on the return of the reapers. They thought it was going to be the new Sovereign.

However, as Arrival has proven to us, the reapers started to move at the end of ME1 rather than at the end of ME2 as everyone else thought. They think this renders the ME2 plot moot, because if they were already going the conventional way, why bother building a new vanguard?

Answer? That wasn't a vanguard. It was an experiment to see if using humans was viable in producing a reaper. That's why the collectors have been doing just that - collecting. They have spent centuries trying to figure out which species is the best for reaper-production. And thus, the human-reaper was a prototype, an experiment, a test. Nothing else.

Problem solved, plot-hole filled, argument ended. The story was just too subtle about its facts and too open for interpretation.


trying to use 1 reaper to do the job doesn't make sense anyways when sovereign just got blown up real good - and that was with hundreds of years of studying the galaxy and planning ahead

my guess about the final cutscene of ME2 is that the reapers were already in position for an invasion, they were just coming out of a dormant state

everything we know about the reapers is an assumption anyways...

Modifié par 88mphSlayer, 01 avril 2011 - 01:26 .


#52
gorrillasnake

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 The Whole dlc was one contradiction eating a nother..
Like Scotch Korean 



Image IPB

Modifié par gorrillasnake, 01 avril 2011 - 01:17 .


#53
BWOzar

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Also, Arrival DLC is the LAST/ENDING DLC for ME2 and is the bridge between ME2 and ME3.

Why any person would play the Arrival mission first/before the Suicide Mission is.... Weird...


Isn't the issue the ME3 import? Doesn't ME2 create the importable game save (like ME1 did) at the game's ending so anything that you accomplish after the suicide mission wouldn't actually be imported?

#54
88mphSlayer

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BWOzar wrote...

Also, Arrival DLC is the LAST/ENDING DLC for ME2 and is the bridge between ME2 and ME3.

Why any person would play the Arrival mission first/before the Suicide Mission is.... Weird...


Isn't the issue the ME3 import? Doesn't ME2 create the importable game save (like ME1 did) at the game's ending so anything that you accomplish after the suicide mission wouldn't actually be imported?


even Dragon Age 2 detects DAO DLC flags so i'd assume ME3 could easily detect the ME2 dlc

#55
Anacronian Stryx

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R3MUS wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

R3MUS wrote...

1. The Reaper fleet is waiting for Sovereign to open the Citadel Relay.
2. Sovereign fails and gets destroyed.
3. Harbinger orders the Collectors to start building another Reaper, and while doing it, why not try to make a Human Reaper?
4. The Human Reaper were going to try assault the Citadel once more, this time with the Collector armies.
5. Shepard destroys the Collector base and the Human Reaper.
6. Harbinger gets pissed and says "You have failed! We will find another way!" to the Collector General who seem to be kinda sad.
7. Harbinger and the Reaper fleets start heading for the Alpha Relay to get directly to the Citadel to shut down the communications between the species.
8. Shepard destroys the Alpha Relay and Harbinger gets even more pissed and even say "Shepard. You have become an annoyance".

Ending with the last words, PREPARE YOURSELVES FOR THE ARRIVAL!

...


I think this is pretty accurate if you merge 2 and 7. the whole Collector shenanigans was Something to keep Harbinger occupied while traveling...a road game :)


Haha, like a kid in the backseat of your car when you are driving to the mall or something.

But seriously, i think i have explained the whole thing very well.


I do think that the reapers starting to move towards the Alpha relay as soon as Sovereign went Boom.

Much of the confusion about stems from people thinking that the reapers woke up at the end of ME2 - here-
But if you watch the scene in very high resolution on PC you can actually see they are quite awake all the time and moving, The Shadow passing in over the reapers doesn't help the perception of the scene.

Also people think they are far away from the galaxy but really they are quiet close.

Compare these two pictures and you'll realize that we don't see much more than the core and a small portion of of one of the galaxy arms.

Image IPB

Image IPB

Edit : man i whiched i had some picture editing skills so i could create a composit of the two pictures so we could see how close the reapers actually are to the outer reaches of the milky way.

Modifié par Anacronian Stryx, 01 avril 2011 - 03:08 .


#56
Winterfly

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We can be nit picky about the story of Mass Effect but lets go on a butcher spree on Star Wars, on Halo, on Lord of the rings and you will find illogical things everywhere.

Whats more dormant then reapers are the god damn giant eagles in LOTR.

Seeing the reaper fleet again, wow they are a few hundred if not thousand of those bastards. Or is there "minor reapers" aswell?

#57
GuardianAngel470

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Winterfly wrote...

We can be nit picky about the story of Mass Effect but lets go on a butcher spree on Star Wars, on Halo, on Lord of the rings and you will find illogical things everywhere.

Whats more dormant then reapers are the god damn giant eagles in LOTR.

Seeing the reaper fleet again, wow they are a few hundred if not thousand of those bastards. Or is there "minor reapers" aswell?


"Can you imagine if we'd walked the whole way?"

"Ha ha ha. One of us might've died."

#58
maxulic

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BWOzar wrote...

Also, Arrival DLC is the LAST/ENDING DLC for ME2 and is the bridge between ME2 and ME3.

Why any person would play the Arrival mission first/before the Suicide Mission is.... Weird...


Isn't the issue the ME3 import? Doesn't ME2 create the importable game save (like ME1 did) at the game's ending so anything that you accomplish after the suicide mission wouldn't actually be imported?


No it's different from ME1. Any save file post Suicide Mission can be used for import in ME3.

So it doesn't matter if you have run some DLCs months after completing the game, your last save will be the one to select.

Modifié par maxulic, 01 avril 2011 - 03:15 .


#59
LPPrince

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GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Winterfly wrote...

We can be nit picky about the story of Mass Effect but lets go on a butcher spree on Star Wars, on Halo, on Lord of the rings and you will find illogical things everywhere.

Whats more dormant then reapers are the god damn giant eagles in LOTR.

Seeing the reaper fleet again, wow they are a few hundred if not thousand of those bastards. Or is there "minor reapers" aswell?


"Can you imagine if we'd walked the whole way?"

"Ha ha ha. One of us might've died."


"Its funny because its extremely far............"

*eagle scream*

#60
JKoopman

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R3MUS wrote...

1. The Reaper fleet is waiting for Sovereign to open the Citadel Relay.
2. Sovereign fails and gets destroyed.
3. Harbinger orders the Collectors to start building another Reaper, and while doing it, why not try to make a Human Reaper?
4. The Human Reaper were going to try assault the Citadel once more, this time with the Collector armies.
5. Shepard destroys the Collector base and the Human Reaper.
6. Harbinger gets pissed and says "You have failed! We will find another way!" to the Collector General who seem to be kinda sad.
7. Harbinger and the Reaper fleets start heading for the Alpha Relay to get directly to the Citadel to shut down the communications between the species.
8. Shepard destroys the Alpha Relay and Harbinger gets even more pissed and even say "Shepard. You have become an annoyance".

Ending with the last words, PREPARE YOURSELVES FOR THE ARRIVAL!

So, that means Harbinger and his Reaper friends are soon at the edge/start of the Milky Way Galaxy. Here ME3 begins, Shepard is maybe on Earth and doing this trial thing for blowing up 300.000 Batarians. And *KAAAABOOOOOM!* the Reapers have ARRIVED at Earth.

Also, Arrival DLC is the LAST/ENDING DLC for ME2 and is the bridge between ME2 and ME3.

Why any person would play the Arrival mission first/before the Suicide Mission is.... Weird...


I must point out that #4 is complete supposition. We don't know for what purpose the tiny (relative to other Reapers) Human-Reaper was constructed and, frankly, I find the idea ridiculous that where a TRUE Reaper and an entire geth fleet failed the Reapers somehow expected a pint-sized baby Human-Reaper and ONE COLLECTOR SHIP to succeed.

#61
Guest_Arcian_*

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88mphSlayer wrote...
my guess about the final cutscene of ME2 is that the reapers were already in position for an invasion, they were just coming out of a dormant state

No, no and no. I hate that everyone assumes the cutscene shows them "waking up". It's a cutscene - expect some bloody artistic license for the sake of drama. Everything indicates that they started moving the moment Sovereign was confirmed dead.

#62
CroGamer002

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It's BSN.

People will find anything to whine about.

#63
Bamboozalist

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Arcian wrote...

No, no and no. I hate that everyone assumes the cutscene shows them "waking up". It's a cutscene - expect some bloody artistic license for the sake of drama. Everything indicates that they started moving the moment Sovereign was confirmed dead.


I don't get why it can't be both.

Reapers go to full power and acceleration for 1 second, cut all power and glide towards the galaxy (no friction in space) on "stand-by" mode. Then when they get close to the galaxy they power back on.

#64
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Bamboozalist wrote...

I don't get why it can't be both.

Reapers go to full power and acceleration for 1 second, cut all power and glide towards the galaxy (no friction in space) on "stand-by" mode. Then when they get close to the galaxy they power back on.

(sigh)

Your logic is perfect as long as you don't apply the nature of space to the equation. Despite being "empty", space is filled with an awful lot of debris. Basically, you can't point a finger to the sky without aiming at something dense.

The reason why you can't "drift" at 4380 times the speed of light (base FTL speed) is because if you don't actively keep your path clear from large stellar objects such as asteroids, suns and planets, you're going to crash into something and die.

Also, travelling faster than light is not possible according to special relativity. FTL is achieved by generating a mass effect field around the ships that in turns negative pressure behind the ship and positive pressure in front, which propels it forward. This method does not contradict special relativity because of how exotic matter like eezo functions. This field has to be maintained by feeding it power, or the negative pressure is lost. Since special relativity says non-negative pressure FTL is impossible, you drop down to "regular" speeds as soon as turn off the FTL engine.

Therefore, you have to keep the FTL engine on at all times. No drifting allowed.

#65
Bamboozalist

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Arcian wrote...

(sigh)

Your logic is perfect as long as you don't apply the nature of space to the equation. Despite being "empty", space is filled with an awful lot of debris. Basically, you can't point a finger to the sky without aiming at something dense.

The reason why you can't "drift" at 4380 times the speed of light (base FTL speed) is because if you don't actively keep your path clear from large stellar objects such as asteroids, suns and planets, you're going to crash into something and die.


(rebuttal condescending sigh)

We're talking about intergalactic space not interstellar space, two completely different compositions. Also most of that is on a standard galactic plane, even outside of the galaxy the reapers are shown "descending" from a higher angle, meaning they're above the galactic plane. (Which would be a good place to hide because you're much less likely to get hit by random debris there)

Now there is intergalactic medium but we don't even fully understand what it is composed of, what it's exact tempature and density is, how it connects galaxies, extecra...

As for the sustained FTL in stand-by mode. You seem to forget a dead reaper managed to keep its mass effect fields operational for millions of years. If they have that much power in reserve they can probably power FTL travel in stand-by mode.

#66
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Bamboozalist wrote...

As for the sustained FTL in stand-by mode. You seem to forget a dead reaper managed to keep its mass effect fields operational for millions of years. If they have that much power in reserve they can probably power FTL travel in stand-by mode.


The dead reaper wasn't generating propulsion, so it's a really bad comparison.

Just having the mass effect fields on doesn't generate propulsion, it just allows the FTL engine to propel the object to the maximum possible speed without the mass causing physics problems by lowering the mass of the object to near-zero. Drifting is impossible, because as soon as you turn off the propulsion system to save gas you drop down into relativistic speeds. Of course, you can drift at relativistic speeds, but it will take a stupidly long time to get anywhere.

And regarding dark space - there is likely to be debris in dark space, just not large stellar objects. Due to the lack of star clusters, this hypothetical debris is not visible. Mass effect barriers deal with most kinds of smaller debris, but larger will still have to be circumvented. It's really a moot point, since you can't drift anyhow.

#67
Bamboozalist

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Arcian wrote...

*snip*


It's not a bad comparison when you compare the fact that it was doing that for 37 MILLION YEARS vs sustained thrust for 2 years. The Reapers would have to use 18.5 million times as much power drifting to match that and that's a dead Reaper, we don't know what a Reaper's power generation set up is.

As for debris in Intergalactic Space, we actually have an idea of what exists debris wise in intergalactic space because we can use the radiation of the IGM to get a good idea similar to how we detect black holes, it's currently estimated that intergalactic space has a density of one hydrogen atom per cubic meter.

#68
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Bamboozalist wrote...

It's not a bad comparison when you compare the fact that it was doing that for 37 MILLION YEARS vs sustained thrust for 2 years. The Reapers would have to use 18.5 million times as much power drifting to match that and that's a dead Reaper, we don't know what a Reaper's power generation set up is.

What's your problem, man? Ships CANNOT DRIFT in FTL. Stop saying they can. The in-universe FTL physics does not permit drifting because of how the propulsion system works.

Bamboozalist wrote...

As for debris in Intergalactic Space, we actually have an idea of what exists debris wise in intergalactic space because we can use the radiation of the IGM to get a good idea similar to how we detect black holes, it's currently estimated that intergalactic space has a density of one hydrogen atom per cubic meter.

It's really irrelevant. You can't drift in FTL. Period.

For the record, I was basing my calculations of hitting asteroids and stellar object during your hypothetical drifting on galactic space, not intergalactic. That was my mistake, and I admit it. It's still irrelevant. You. Cannot. Drift. In. FTL.

#69
Bamboozalist

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Arcian wrote...
*SNIP*


Since you're unable to read what I posted to your response that you can't drift in FTL

"If they have that much power in reserve they can probably power FTL travel in stand-by mode." as in ONLY USING ENOUGH POWER TO KEEP FTL TRAVEL GOING. Edit: Yes this is techincally using propulsion and not standard drifting but it's the same principle of my original idea, shut down everything you don't need to get there to save power.

So yes they would need to use up 18,500,000 times the power the derilict reaper used in 37 million years in 2 years of flying there.

Modifié par Bamboozalist, 01 avril 2011 - 06:47 .


#70
Mr0TYuH

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The problem with assuming the Human-Reaper had no purpose in regards to the Reapers' return is that Harbinger says something like, "You have accomplished nothing, we will find another way." This implies that the Human-Reaper, or at least the Collectors, were an essential part of Reaper Return Plan B or C or whatever.

Also, to me, it looks like the Reapers wake up after ME2. While some claim they were merely in shadow, they have running lights. In the last shot, when they are backlit by the Milky Way, you can still see their lights. So, if they were merely in shadow in the first shot, their lights should have still been visible. I'll admit I may be wrong. The only way to know for sure would be to ask the developers what actually happened, but the coming out of dormancy is what it looks like to me.

I don't have a problem with the Reapers being able to reach the Milky Way with only a couple months flight, but it begs some questions. Nazara first tried to send the Invasion Signal to the Citadel about a thousand years ago. That was Plan A. When that failed, Nazara indoctrinated the rachni to conquer the Citadel, Plan A2. After that, Nazara tried to indoctrinate some turians to do it, Plan A3. After that, Nazara enlisted Saren and the geth, Plan A4. Next Harbinger had the Collectors build the TerminReaper. Whether the plan was to attack the Citadel again, Plan A5, or something else, Plan B, we don't know, but Harbinger did say it was linked to the Reapers return.

While there are obvious benefits to Plan A, shutting down the relay system, destroying the government, gaining census records, etc, is the drawback of simply flying to the Milky Way so great that they waited a thousand years and tried to attack the Citadel multiple times? If it turns out that this is a Long March or March of the 10,000 situation for the Reapers, I'll understand. If many Reapers died on the Journey due to lack of power or static build up, it will make sense. If the remaining Reapers are low on power and not 100% effective, it will make sense. If they are all fine and ready to reap, it doesn't make as much sense.

I personally would have liked Arrival to have had its story reworked a bit. We have the Alpha Relay. It is the oldest Relay known in the galaxy. It has all these special, unknown properties. We have Object Rho, a mysterious Reaper Artifact of unknown purpose that is steadily building up power. It turns out that Object Rho is a key. When it interacts with the Alpha Relay, it boosts its power so it functions like the Citadel relay. Shepard has unwittingly returned the Reapers to the galaxy.

I'm not saying that is what really happened. Arrival, as it stands now, wouldn't make any sense, but there are weaknesses in the story. While I don't mind Shepard losing, I don't like the way Arrival did it. It was simply a means of taking two days off the clock and "amping things up." Shepard convienently regains conciousness with just enough time. There just happens to be the Mech control station in the Medical Bay. All his equipment just happens to be in the next room. It's just silly. I would say it's all too convienent, except the indoctrinated are trying to stop the asteroid, and the Reapers do show up if you let the clock run down. I would have much rather they reworked the story. Right now the Reapers are only a threat due to their scale and toys. There plans have been fairly easily thwarted. The only reason they've enjoyed any success is because nobody believes in them. For such ancient and intelligent machines, I would like them to clever. I would have loved for them to have tricked Kenson's team and Shepard into unleashing them.

Of course, that's all just my opinion.

#71
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Bamboozalist wrote...

Arcian wrote...
*SNIP*


Since you're unable to read what I posted to your response that you can't drift in FTL

"If they have that much power in reserve they can probably power FTL travel in stand-by mode." as in ONLY USING ENOUGH POWER TO KEEP FTL TRAVEL GOING. Edit: Yes this is techincally using propulsion and not standard drifting but it's the same principle of my original idea, shut down everything you don't need to get there to save power.

So yes they would need to use up 18,500,000 times the power the derilict reaper used in 37 million years in 2 years of flying there.

Then it's just an issue of semantics. You could've said "running on the bare minimum" instead of drifting since drifting implies not having the engine running at all.

In that case, I agree with you. They can save a lot of power that way by turning off auxilliary systems, but the engine is still going to be a resource hog. Of course, the reapers being the reapers, they could have any imaginable solution to that problem.

To be fair, that dead reaper is really confusing in terms of energy consumption. The age of it suggests it has somehow endured 740 extinction cycles on the same energy budget as every other reaper, and that's not taking into account how much energy the battle with the species that killed it must have drained. If reapers need to restock fuel and power every 50,000 years, how come this sucker has lasted so long?

I'm guessing its a writing oversight. Either that or the reapers have a potentially infinite power supply, and therefore go out to dark space for completely different reasons than we (and Vigil) initially presumed.

#72
Anacronian Stryx

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Mr0TYuH wrote...

The problem with assuming the Human-Reaper had no purpose in regards to the Reapers' return is that Harbinger says something like, "You have accomplished nothing, we will find another way." This implies that the Human-Reaper, or at least the Collectors, were an essential part of Reaper Return Plan B or C or whatever.


Actually i would think that it ment exacly what Harbinger said "You have accomplished nothing, we will find another way."

At least it seems that the Collectors have no part in the overall plan other than being factory workers and and running around kidnapping people and looking for candidates for reaperhood ( i think the reapers always had such servants evaluating the next harvest) - At least that what it seems to me at this point, But this is the big problem with ME 2 it doesn't really tell us anything about the reaper-larvae.

#73
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Mr0TYuH wrote...

The problem with assuming the Human-Reaper had no purpose in regards to the Reapers' return is that Harbinger says something like, "You have accomplished nothing, we will find another way." This implies that the Human-Reaper, or at least the Collectors, were an essential part of Reaper Return Plan B or C or whatever.

No, that's just you assuming they mean something. Interpretation is like an ass - it has two sides. It's not the first time a reaper has been annoyingly cryptic with its choice of words, after all.

It could very well mean something like, "You have accomplished nothing by disrupting our research. We will find another way to collect the data we need from your species."

Modifié par Arcian, 01 avril 2011 - 07:16 .


#74
Bamboozalist

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Arcian wrote...
I'm guessing its a writing oversight. Either that or the reapers have a potentially infinite power supply, and therefore go out to dark space for completely different reasons than we (and Vigil) initially presumed.


I'm going with this. I love all the Reaper's not making a damn lick of sense some times because it really does make them feel like completely alien unknowable beings. That really impoweres the player to come up with rediculous scenarios to make sense of them.

Granted most people are going to complain because it's not spoon fed to them and it's not "epic".

#75
Mr0TYuH

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You may be right, but, to me at least, the fact that the Collectors completely changed their modus operandi immediately after Nazara's destruction implies on connection. The asari and salarians have been active for two thousand years. During that time, the Collectors' have behaved exactly the same. Show up, make strange requests, trade technology and then vanish. Suddenly, they are abducting entire colonies and building a Reaper. It is possible they only changed because they only just now became aware of humanity, and humanity is the first species worthy of further study. Of course, that brings up another point I don't like. Appearantly, humanity is the only species capable of conversion into a Reaper. EDI positing that the Reapers tried to convert the Protheans and failed. It smacks a tad too much of the humans are special trope. Anyway, that is a possibility, but, once again, the timing is just a tad too convienent.

Of course you could be right. It is impossible to know without a word of God explaination from the developers. You have given me something to think about, but my interpretation still makes more sense to me. I may be wrong.