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[Elite Midget]

Here's the endings of ME3.

Shepard Wins
-Renegade Ending
-Paragon Ending
-Heroic Sacrifice
-Minor variables such as LI incporated in all endings.

Reapers Wins
-Shepard fails hardcore

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Again, why spoil it for people before they get a chance to enjoy figuring out how they do it? People always knew the Reapers were coming, even without the Citadel. How though, was left up in the air.

If the Reapers started moving by the end of ME1 they would be arriving anyway. Instead Bioware made them stupid and had them set around doing nothing. It was than they they released that they messed up and than made the Reapers even dumber by retconning out things without even hinting at it untill Arrival.

[GreenDragon37]

Elite Midget wrote...

Here's the endings of ME3.

Shepard Wins
-Renegade Ending
-Paragon Ending
-Heroic Sacrifice
-Minor variables such as LI incporated in all endings.

Reapers Wins
-Shepard fails hardcore

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Again, why spoil it for people before they get a chance to enjoy figuring out how they do it? People always knew the Reapers were coming, even without the Citadel. How though, was left up in the air.

If the Reapers started moving by the end of ME1 they would be arriving anyway. Instead Bioware made them stupid and had them set around doing nothing. It was than they they released that they messed up and than made the Reapers even dumber by retconning out things without even hinting at it untill Arrival.

1. You're over-simplifying it. I'm talking about how it happens. How we get to the end.

2. Where's the retcon? And how do we know if they've been moving since just ME1? They could have been moving since the Keepers failed, or the Rachni plan was botched.

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 01 avril 2011 - 08:56 .

[Elite Midget]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
None of that media mentions me blowing up the base either, does that mean that my actions mean nothing and it will just be retconned come ME3?

Those forms of media are PURPOSELY outside of the Reaper threat as seen through Shepard's eyes. The closest the come are references in Revelations, Collectors in Ascension, Collectors in Redemption, and husk makers in Evolution.

None of them reference much at all about the things Shepard deals with. Your proof of a retcon is insubstantial.

They do mention things that happened in the ME games in the other medias. The reasons the CB isn't mentioned as destroyed or not is because it's a choice. Even than the Novel between ME2->ME3 makes mention of TIM useing the Collector's Base no matter the outcome.

I suggest reading the Novels instead of just the wiki if you're so sure they it hasen't retconned things.

[Elite Midget]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Where's the retcon? And how do we know if they've been moving since just ME1? They could have been moving since the Keepers failed, or the Rachni plan was botched.

You didn't read. Don't worry, I'm used to people ignoreing what I posted than pretending that I didn't already address the matter multiple times already.

They could have been moving but than we have end of ME2 which proves that they weren't moving at all and didn't start untill after ME2 is over and the Collector's failed.

[kaotician]

On this business about The Arrival making the original ending to ME2 irrelevant: surely a little intelligence should be applied here? I mean, clearly, for narrative purposes, The Arrival is meant to be played after the end of ME2, and that's when you should play it. Having a choice of when a thing happens just for the sake of choice itself would render any narrative merely incoherent, wouldn't it? It's not a plot-hole - if anything it's a game-hole, in that the mission should only be available after the suicide run, and not before, in just the same way that other parts of the narrative have to happen in a specific order for the plot to be clear and make sense. If you play it as it should be played, it works perfectly well - unless there's some other point here that's unclear regarding the rendering of the ending irrelevant?

[Nathan Redgrave]

Elite Midget wrote...

Remember the ME2 ending? I'm sure some of you have'nt seen it in a while but it ended like this.

The Reapers boosting towards the Universe. No relays or anything were shown. Just them turning on, after failing again, and boosting towards the Universe very slowly.

Arrival means that they had no reason to do that if they have yet another easy backdoor to the Universe.

Okay, first off, no, they didn't "turn on," they were simply moving. As in, when the camera cut in, they were already in motion. As in, there's nothing beyond the player's own suppositions about their actions to suggest they hadn't spent the entire game in motion. Just sayin'. It's kind of an important point to remember.

[GreenDragon37]

kaotician wrote...

On this business about The Arrival making the original ending to ME2 irrelevant: surely a little intelligence should be applied here? I mean, clearly, for narrative purposes, The Arrival is meant to be played after the end of ME2, and that's when you should play it. Having a choice of when a thing happens just for the sake of choice itself would render any narrative merely incoherent, wouldn't it? It's not a plot-hole - if anything it's a game-hole, in that the mission should only be available after the suicide run, and not before, in just the same way that other parts of the narrative have to happen in a specific order for the plot to be clear and make sense. If you play it as it should be played, it works perfectly well - unless there's some other point here that's unclear regarding the rendering of the ending irrelevant?

You, sir, continue to make sense!

[kaotician]

Elite Midget wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Where's the retcon? And how do we know if they've been moving since just ME1? They could have been moving since the Keepers failed, or the Rachni plan was botched.

You didn't read. Don't worry, I'm used to people ignoreing what I posted than pretending that I didn't already address the matter multiple times already.

They could have been moving but than we have end of ME2 which proves that they weren't moving at all and didn't start untill after ME2 is over and the Collector's failed.

I don't understand why you insist on stating that the ending of ME2 proves that the Reapers weren't moving at all. Where do we see that so unambiguously? I feel this is more an issue of your perception than writer-failure, honestly.

[GreenDragon37]

Elite Midget wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Where's the retcon? And how do we know if they've been moving since just ME1? They could have been moving since the Keepers failed, or the Rachni plan was botched.

You didn't read. Don't worry, I'm used to people ignoreing what I posted than pretending that I didn't already address the matter multiple times already.

They could have been moving but than we have end of ME2 which proves that they weren't moving at all and didn't start untill after ME2 is over and the Collector's failed.

And you need to apply some common sense. The ending of ME2 was for dramatic effect. They weren't "turning on". From our camera's point of view, they were emerging from the darkness! Jeez, you people will complain about anything!

[Fugiz]

So..uh, has anyone actually let the clock run down to 0. anyone willing to keep their computers on for two days?

[Nathan Redgrave]

kaotician wrote...

No, if you take a look at the Codex for The Arrival, you'll see that the relay is unusual in that it offers 16 simultaneous points of egress to various other relays around the galaxy, when it's charged up. It's another Hub, like the Citadel one, disguised.

Ah, thanks for clarifying. Still, sixteen points of exit isn't as optimal as bursting in directly from dark space at the heart of galactic civilization and seizing control of the entire relay network. I can definitely see the Alpha Relay as a pretty standard backup plan--it's a relay with multiple exit points positioned conveniently at the outer edge of the galaxy, with a homing beacon (Object Rho) placed somewhere in its vicinity to ensure the Reapers know where to go.

I wonder if the Alpha Relay was their means of entry prior to the construction of the Citadel?

[GreenDragon37]

Fugiz wrote...

So..uh, has anyone actually let the clock run down to 0. anyone willing to keep their computers on for two days?

You can find the video of what happens on YouTube.

[GreenDragon37]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

kaotician wrote...

No, if you take a look at the Codex for The Arrival, you'll see that the relay is unusual in that it offers 16 simultaneous points of egress to various other relays around the galaxy, when it's charged up. It's another Hub, like the Citadel one, disguised.

Ah, thanks for clarifying. Still, sixteen points of exit isn't as optimal as bursting in directly from dark space at the heart of galactic civilization and seizing control of the entire relay network. I can definitely see the Alpha Relay as a pretty standard backup plan--it's a relay with multiple exit points positioned conveniently at the outer edge of the galaxy, with a homing beacon (Object Rho) placed somewhere in its vicinity to ensure the Reapers know where to go.

I wonder if the Alpha Relay was their means of entry prior to the construction of the Citadel?

You're right, it does make perfect sense for a back-up plan.

That's the point, though. The Protheans, the Council, and Shephard
have been foiling their plans for taking the Citadel since the last
cycle. They have no other choice. It's slower, less strategic, and more
inconvenient, and the Reapers know it. But again, no choice.

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 01 avril 2011 - 09:12 .

[kaotician]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

kaotician wrote...

No, if you take a look at the Codex for The Arrival, you'll see that the relay is unusual in that it offers 16 simultaneous points of egress to various other relays around the galaxy, when it's charged up. It's another Hub, like the Citadel one, disguised.

Ah, thanks for clarifying. Still, sixteen points of exit isn't as optimal as bursting in directly from dark space at the heart of galactic civilization and seizing control of the entire relay network. I can definitely see the Alpha Relay as a pretty standard backup plan--it's a relay with multiple exit points positioned conveniently at the outer edge of the galaxy, with a homing beacon (Object Rho) placed somewhere in its vicinity to ensure the Reapers know where to go.

I wonder if the Alpha Relay was their means of entry prior to the construction of the Citadel?

No, I agree with you. It's their Plan B, nothing more. As you've so ably expressed, it's much less efficient than the Citadel - the whole relay, details of every Government, every planet colonised, locations of ships and populations etc.

[Elite Midget]

kaotician wrote...

On this business about The Arrival making the original ending to ME2 irrelevant: surely a little intelligence should be applied here? I mean, clearly, for narrative purposes, The Arrival is meant to be played after the end of ME2, and that's when you should play it. Having a choice of when a thing happens just for the sake of choice itself would render any narrative merely incoherent, wouldn't it? It's not a plot-hole - if anything it's a game-hole, in that the mission should only be available after the suicide run, and not before, in just the same way that other parts of the narrative have to happen in a specific order for the plot to be clear and make sense. If you play it as it should be played, it works perfectly well - unless there's some other point here that's unclear regarding the rendering of the ending irrelevant?

Than what about the Novel that takes place up to a year after ME2? Or are you forgetting that as you attempt to try and handwave things to try and make Bioware's retcon look better than it is?

[GreenDragon37]

Elite Midget wrote...

kaotician wrote...

On this business about The Arrival making the original ending to ME2 irrelevant: surely a little intelligence should be applied here? I mean, clearly, for narrative purposes, The Arrival is meant to be played after the end of ME2, and that's when you should play it. Having a choice of when a thing happens just for the sake of choice itself would render any narrative merely incoherent, wouldn't it? It's not a plot-hole - if anything it's a game-hole, in that the mission should only be available after the suicide run, and not before, in just the same way that other parts of the narrative have to happen in a specific order for the plot to be clear and make sense. If you play it as it should be played, it works perfectly well - unless there's some other point here that's unclear regarding the rendering of the ending irrelevant?

Than what about the Novel that takes place up to a year after ME2? Or are you forgetting that as you attempt to try and handwave things to try and make Bioware's retcon look better than it is?

Have you forgotten that in Retribution Shephard is off the radar? The book isn't about Shephard or the Reaper's plans. Arrival was a Shephard-centric story. I don't see the retcon. You're grasping at things that aren't there.

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 01 avril 2011 - 09:16 .

[kaotician]

Elite Midget wrote...

kaotician wrote...

On this business about The Arrival making the original ending to ME2 irrelevant: surely a little intelligence should be applied here? I mean, clearly, for narrative purposes, The Arrival is meant to be played after the end of ME2, and that's when you should play it. Having a choice of when a thing happens just for the sake of choice itself would render any narrative merely incoherent, wouldn't it? It's not a plot-hole - if anything it's a game-hole, in that the mission should only be available after the suicide run, and not before, in just the same way that other parts of the narrative have to happen in a specific order for the plot to be clear and make sense. If you play it as it should be played, it works perfectly well - unless there's some other point here that's unclear regarding the rendering of the ending irrelevant?

Than what about the Novel that takes place up to a year after ME2? Or are you forgetting that as you attempt to try and handwave things to try and make Bioware's retcon look better than it is?

Hi, which bit of the novel are you referring to? It could be something that's slipped my mind.

[Elite Midget]

Yes it does. It basically means that the Reapers could be here in days. After all, if they had 'Arrival' as a backdoor than what's stopping them from having 'ANOTHER' unmentioned plot device stashed away to get them to the Universe sooners?

Which I add would completely go against the Novel's timeline. Not to mention that Arrival can be done before ME2 ends thus you can't go under the false assumption that it takes place after ME2 since that isn't the case.

[GreenDragon37]

Elite Midget wrote...

Yes it does. It basically means that the Reapers could be here in days. After all, if they had 'Arrival' as a backdoor than what's stopping them from having 'ANOTHER' unmentioned plot device stashed away to get them to the Universe sooners?

Which I add would completely go against the Novel's timeline. Not to mention that Arrival can be done before ME2 ends thus you can't go under the false assumption that it takes place after ME2 since that isn't the case.

But that doesn't explain why the Alpha Relay is a plot hole. Also, we don't know when Retribution takes place after SM, nor do we know when Arrival does.

The fact that it can be done after Horizon is BioWare's fault, but we all know that Arrival should be played after SM. Again, use common sense.

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 01 avril 2011 - 09:22 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

Elite Midget wrote...

Than what about the Novel that takes place up to a year after ME2? Or are you forgetting that as you attempt to try and handwave things to try and make Bioware's retcon look better than it is?

First point: there's no concrete timeframe for when Arrival takes place in relation to Retribution.

Second point: even if there were, there's no reason it should impact Retribution, as nothing in Retribution depends on anything other than the idea that the Reapers are coming, and that they're seizing on any possible advantages they can get in the meantime (i.e. Cerberus's ill-fated little experiment). It's never specifically stated how near or far the Reapers are, and if the Alpha Relay was destroyed prior to Retribution--which isn't necessarily the case, mind, it could have been destroyed later--that buys plenty of time for Retribution to occur, since it means the Reapers have to manually travel to another relay... which may well take a really long freaking time, in case you've forgotten how big space is.

Between timeline ambiguity and the fact that Arrival is, in itself, mostly just an exercise in buying more time, there's no retcon required.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Elite Midget wrote...

Not to mention that Arrival can be done before ME2 ends thus you can't go under the false assumption that it takes place after ME2 since that isn't the case.

Again, I submit that while the Reapers turning around for that dramatic shot OUTSIDE THE GALAXY at the end of ME2 may well be possible with their technology, I somehow doubt that's what they'd actually do. And yes, I'm chalking this up as a game-hole rather than a plot hole. The whole thing makes no sense when you place it in the context of pre-Suicide Mission.

[Elite Midget]

Oh, so TIM was able to use all the technology so well in the Novel just days after ME2?

[GreenDragon37]

Elite Midget wrote...

Oh, so TIM was able to use all the technology so well in the Novel just days after ME2?

Um, yes. Shep is infused with Reaper tech! EDI and the SR2 are made from Reaper tech! Thanix Cannons are reverse engineered Reaper tech! And that's before ME 2!

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 01 avril 2011 - 09:26 .

[kaotician]

As I see it, playing The Arrival earlier might be useful if you're doing an Insanity run, since there's 3 upgrades to be had there in a fairly smallish environment overall, and plenty of resources along the way to harvest. However, that's a pure gaming thing. If you're playing the game for its narrative coherence, it's pretty clear that the intention is that you play it post Suicide Mission. Kudos to Bioware then, for offering the choice: to play either within the narrative, or to boost your stats otherwise. If it's not intended to help in that way, why include upgrades that you're not actually going to use (excepting the possibility that game 3 has you fully charged if you import your character?

Modifié par kaotician, 01 avril 2011 - 09:28 .

[Elite Midget]

They weren't infused with tech from the CB. Even than it took 2 years to make Shepard and EDI has that brand new smell since she was made for the Normandy and not just transfered over. Thus she was made dureing the 2 years it took to bring Shepard back.

Even than the Normandy SR2 wasen't actually finished it after Shepard's revival and Joker was told the day before Shepard arrived.