26 réponses à ce sujet

[gtox11]

Posted this on another thread, but I figured some people wanting this info might miss it buried in there, so reposting on it's own thread.  

I found that..

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Confirmed, every 2 str/dex/mag = +1 base character damage, class dependent of course.  As noted below, however, the DPS value of 1 base damage is dependent entirely on the attack speed of your weapon.  See the very bottom of the post for those results. **

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Just ran some more numbers regarding Mage spells and it's relationship to base damage increases.  I assume this also applies to Warrior and Rogue skills as well.

1 point of base (2 magic) adds..
                @ 5 base = ~ 22% increase  (10 magic and default weapon)
                @ 44 base = ~ 2.5% increase  (90 magic and default weapon)
                @ 86 base = ~ 1.04% increase (90 magic and 46 base weapon)

Clearly there are some pretty rough diminishing returns on Spell damage increases.  This may validate reasons to add some Dex or Cun after a certain damage base, if you want to maximize dps and this is also assuming that mage spells are capable of criticals.

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My formula assumes a 1.0 Attack Speed, 50% Critical Chance, and 50% Crit Damage (except of course when calculating the affects of crit chance value on crit damage, and vice versa)

1 point of DPS adds..
                @ 10 dps = 12.50% increase
                @ 25 dps = 5.00% increase
                @ 50 dps = 2.55% increase
                @ 75 dps = 1.67% increase
                @ 100 dps = 1.25% increase
                @ 125 dps = 1.00% increase
                @ 150 dps = 0.83% increase
                @ 175 dps = 0.71% increase
                @ 200 dps = 0.63% increase

1 point of +% damage AND +% attack speed ALWAYS EQUALS 1.25% dps increase, therefore >100 dps, you should be focusing on any items that you find with attack speed or +%damage.  The +attack speed recommendation only applies to anyone using alot of weapon attacks, i.e warriors and rogues.  Mages will benefit, but of course it does nothing for their spells (maybe someday it will affect cooldown!)

Here was the interesting part for me..

1 point of +cit chance and +% crit damage is ALWAYS EQUAL to each other, until you reach 100% crit rate of course.

So...  If you have +125% crit damage, then 1 point of +crit chance is equal to a 1.25% increase in dps.  Vice versa for +% crit damage until 100% crit chance is achieved, after which +% crit damage is always equal to 1.00% increase.  With the rogue passive giving +2% crit damage per 1 cunning, means every 1 cunning is a 2.0% DPS increase.  You would be stupid not to stack cunning in that circumstance, but remember that this changes nothing concerning +crit damage on items.  It is still worth 1.0% per crit damage % at 100% crit chance.

So this means that you can look at your crit chance, and your +crit damage and determine at exactly what dps level it is more valuable to get cunning over dex for a rogue, or dex/cunning over str for a warrior.  Of course, given the relatively short length of a single game, it is unlikely you will reach too much DPS to support shifting from STR to Dex/Cun.

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I found that every 2 str equals +1 base damage.  This is then added to your weapon damage, and then multiplied by the attack speed.  So the value of 1 STR increases dramatically with lower attack speeds.  This fact alone could shift the balance between dps 2-hand wars and dps SnS wars.  But you always get 1% crit chance per dex, and 1% crit damage per cunning (unless you have the rogue talent that doubles it).

Anderfel Cleaver = 0.61 Atk Spd (1.65 Hits/Sec),  Fadeshear = 0.53 Atk Spd (1.89 Hits/Sec); Assume a base damage of 10 on character, and a weapon damage of 20 for both (Bioware, this is why you don't make 2-handers have the same base damage as 1 -handers, FYI)
AC = (10+20)*1.65= 49.5 dps
FS = (10+20)*1.89= 56.7 dps

Now you add the fact that Elemental Weapons sustain adds damage to both weapon and shield, and we are talking about a nice advantage for choosing SnS over 2-hand.

--------------------------------
If you have any questions about these results, feel free to ask and I will make more examples.  Hope this helps some people curious about their dps.

** Keep in mind that this does not take into account any value related to Fortitude or Defense.  The focus was purely increases in DPS. **

--------------------------------
P.S.  I also did the numbers on % increases from stacking Willpower for a Berserker Warrior and it is rather lame, imo.  These numbers assume that you are getting 15% of your current stamina back in damage.  **This is not an increase in dps %, but in raw damage increase **

           2 Strength = 1 base damage *Atk Spd
                       1 base w/ 1.0 attack speed weapon = 1 +damage
                       1 base w/ 0.834 attack speed weapon = 1.2 +damage
                       1 base w/ 0.75 attack speed weapon = 1.34 +damage
                       1 base w/ 0.5 attack speed weapon = 2 +damage

           2 Willpower @ 20% Sustain = 1.20 +damage
           2 Willpower @ 25% Sustain = 1.125 +damage
           2 Willpower @ 35% Sustain = 0.975 +damage
           2 Willpower @ 45% Sustain = 0.825 +damage

What does this mean?  This means that IF you are a Berserker, the ONLY way that 1 willpower > 1 str, is
if you are using a weapon with an attack speed OVER 0.83 (which is really really slow for DA2), and you are only using 20% of your stamina for sustains.  Remember though that eventually adding 1 dps is far less valuable than 1% crit or crit damage, so you need to watch the numbers toward end-game to see which is better.

** Note:  This is also assuming that you stay at 100% of your non-sustained stamina, and never use any activates.  Since berserk also drains your stamina, this diminishes your +damage every hit. **

I am in no way saying that Berserker sucks, however.  Additional damage is always good.  All I am pointing out is that stacking Willpower instead of Str/Dex/Cun is a bad idea in terms of pure DPS.  I would still say that Berserk is a must have for any dps warrior, simply on the basis of needing it for super stupidly awesome +50% attack speed activate, which I clearly showed above is ridiculously powerful.

Enjoy the math.  

[WJC3688]

Awesome; very in-depth analysis, thanks for taking the trouble to do all this. The main question I have is, when you take all this info into account, what is the bottom line for characters' builds? Is the point at which additional Dex/Cun contribute more DPS than additional Str so high that a Warrior will effectively never reach it, or is there a "sweet spot" the player can realistically hit with a Warrior, even if it's not until lategame, after which they will want to boost Dex/Cun (I would assume Cun over Dex in that situation, since if I'm reading this right both add the same amount of DPS, but Cun also adds Defense) instead of Str?

I'm phrasing this question in terms of Warrior builds since it seems like Rogue and Mage builds remain pretty clear-cut (as you mentioned, Cunning is always best for Rogues due to that 1 Cun = 2 crit damage passive, and Mages want a stat that will boost the effectiveness of their spells, as opposed to Warriors who can viably rely on their normal attacks to provide most of their damage).

Modifié par WJC3688, 31 mars 2011 - 02:30 .

[gtox11]

I was actually thinking the same thing. I'll just need to think about it for a little bit and come up with a formula that will represent that point when str < dex/cun, but you are right, it might be an unachievable point. It will all come down to end-game weapons dps and how many available attribute points there are throughout the game. Also, it depends on how careful you want to be in terms of your HP. If you are careful and don't "need" a ton of HPs, then you could obviously get away with spending free points elsewhere.

As for the Dex vs Cun warrior battle, yes defense shouldn't be left out of the loop, but in terms of pure DPS, you want to put points into whichever is lowest. As I said, If your crit chance is 75%, then that means that every point of Cunning will be worth 0.75% dps increase, and vice versa.

But no matter what, the clear recommendation without needing to do any math at all is to stick with as much +% "blank" Damage and +% Attack Speed on all of your items. Those items will always provide a flat 1.25% increase to damage per 1% added, so that is way higher than any other attribute.

[gtox11]

Okay, came up with some info using Glandivalis, which I believe most people would agree is the best 1 hander in the game due entirely to its elemental damage, as my test dummy.

Using Gladivalis w/ 100 STR, you would still get 0.81% dps increase per 2 STR.

So now we say you have the base 10 in both Dex and Cun, which gives you 10% crit chance and 50% crit damage. At this point, every 2 dex gives you a 1.0% dps increase.

So according to my chart, after 78 STR, DEX yields more DPS per point. Not too unachievable when you consider that every 1 point increase in damage is 2 more STR you no longer need. After all of your other gear + Elemental Weapons sustain, you will have a pretty low STR requirement to meet that DEX boundary.

As far as Cunning goes, you will need 50% crit before Cunning and Dex are equal value. After that you would trade 1:1.

For 2-handers, I used Bloom as a model. To cap your STR on that, you need ~88.

As an added bonus, I also did the math with Fervor activated and you only need 48 STR w/ Glandivalis, and 52 STR w/ Bloom.

"IF" Barrage buffs your Atk Spd another 50% on top of your already buffed Fervor Atk Spd, then we are looking at ~14 STR w/ Glandivalis, and ~14 STR w/ Bloom. Surprising numbers.

So as you can see, if you are a berserker/reaver and you have both Barrage and Fervor activate most of the time, then your Dex is almost always going to be more valuable

Remember not to trust your character sheet's base damage, as it does not ever include any +damage from sustains or items. All it does is add your Base damage from STR and your Weapon Base together.

** All of the numbers I used included the base 10 STR you start with which contributes 0 base damage. **

I hope this answered your question. Let me know if you want anymore examples.

[gtox11]

Another thought while I was sitting here. All of what I said was without Attack% in mind, so you would at least want enough STR or +Attack on gear to get to 100%. So that might be your "build guideline". Keep attack capped, then pour the rest into Dex. Using that you should stay well above the STR cap.

I might have to go and respec my warrior to try this out. lol

[Waltzingbear]

I'm going to hammer down a lot of what you said. If you see I am mistaken please explain how in a clear way and keep it friendly.

What you said is not complete. Every two points  in the main damage attributes provides 1 damage score modifier (don't know how to call it), with an exception every six with an additional 1 damage score.

16 magic: 10 damage score
18 magic: 11
20 magic: 12
22 magic: 14

The diminishing return you describe is nothing but the simple fact that your stats are getting higher while the damage modifier increase per attribute remains the same: 1/5 is 20%, 1/20 is 5%, 1/50 is 2%.

To determine the overall damage from basic attacks after the critical modifier in percent, one needs to use:  
Y times X + 100

When:
Y=critical chance in percent
X=critical damage in percent divided by 100

This means that if you got 50% critical chance and 50% critical damage: 50 x 0.5 + 100= 125%

To determine which stat is more beneficial at the moment 1% critical chance or 1% critical damage, one needs to simply multiply it with the other:
critical chance/100 = critical damage damage increase
critical damage/100 = critical chance damage increase.

This means that if you got 50% critical chance and 50% critical damage:
0.5% damage increase per point in critical damage for the current stats
0.5% damage increase per point in critical chance for the current stats
At 50% - 50% they are equal; at, for example, 10% 50% they are not:
0.1% damage increase per point in critical damage for the current stats
0.5% damage increase per point in critical chance for the current stats


At 50% 50% you should be doing 125% with the critical multiplier. If your base dps is 10 that makes it 12.5 ; 1dps is 10% of 10 dps ; 0.1 x 12.5= 1.25 which is a 10% increase not a 12.5% increase. You multiplied it the wrong way- it is 12.5% of the basic dps before the critical modifier was applied to it.

[IN1]

[Anderfel Cleaver = 0.61 Atk Spd (1.65 Hits/Sec),  Fadeshear = 0.53 Atk Spd (1.89 Hits/Sec); Assume a base damage of 10 on character, and a weapon damage of 20 for both (Bioware, this is why you don't make 2-handers have the same base damage as 1 -handers, FYI)
AC = (10+20)*1.65= 49.5 dps
FS = (10+20)*1.89= 56.7 dps

The main problem with this post is clearly demonstrated by this comparison. Even if we assume all the characters are equally and predominantly AA-based (which, needless to say, is not the case at all), your write-up is too abstract and theoretical.

(1) The game is a closed system with a finite number of weapons having fixed properties and requirements.
(2) The de facto dps (not the number shown on the UI) is determined by a type of damage dealt (elemental >>> physical) as well as by weapon's arc/hitbox (which is naturally bigger for 2H, and further increased by Giant's Reach).
(3) Your comparison selectively disregards crucial damage-boosters (for example, in the Berserker paragraph, the infinitely stacking upgraded Adrenaline, which -- besides the insane advantages a warrior can benefit from by equiping some of mage-oriented gear -- should be your main stimulus for investing in Wil).
 
You seem to ignore all these basic facts altogether, so your calculations are only true for a hypothetical scenario where you dps a single target with 0 armor and 0 dmg resistance. In reality, with the stats you provided, Anderfel Cleaver will always outperform Fadeshear by a huge margin, except vs. fire-immunes on NM.

Modifié par IN1, 31 mars 2011 - 08:48 .

[gtox11]

For the magic damage "score modifier", where are you getting these numbers? With the default weapon (4 damage) at 16 magic, you would have a total "modifier" of 7; not 10.

You are right about the modifier staying the same, but I was referring to the diminishing return of TOTAL DAMAGE increase on the spells. From what I observed, every 2 magic = 1 base damage, and every 1 base damage = ~4.5 damage to each spell. In the case of having 86 base damage, the increase resulting from 1 base damage increase is very very small, and thus less valuable. Does that make sense? I wasn't trying to imply that you get less than 1 per 2 magic, just that it is less valuable on a damage scale.

My results regarding critical damage and critical chance values are as such..

(((((((49*DPS)+(51*(DPS*1.5)))))-((((50*DPS)+(50*(DPS*1.5))))))/100)*1)/DPS
Slightly more complex, but basically it is..
49 = non-critical hits; 51 = critical hits; 1.5 = critical damage%

and my critical damage formula is...
(((((((50*DPS)+(50*(DPS*1.51)))))-((((50*DPS)+(50*(DPS*1.5))))))/100)*1)/DPS

As you can see, if you replace any of the values with your desired crit chance or crit damage, you will see the resulting increase in your damage dps. I spent several hours writing all of this, and double/triple checking my findings, and it is correct.

You are correct that 10% 50% are not equal values. I am unsure of the argument, because you stated exactly the same thing I did. Using 10% 50%, 1 point of critical damage = 0.1% dps increase, and 1 point of critical chance = 0.5% dps increase.

Again, here is my DPS increase formula for +1 dps. If you can find an error, let me know. I double/triple checked it for hours making sure that the numbers came out correct, so I cannot see where I would have gone wrong.
(((((((50*(DPS+1))+(50*((DPS+1)*1.5)))))-((((50*DPS)+(50*(DPS*1.5))))))/100)*1)/DPS
This formula assumes 100 hits, with a 50% crit chance and +50% crit damage

[IN1]

Okay, came up with some info using Glandivalis, which I believe most people would agree is the best 1 hander in the game due entirely to its elemental damage, as my test dummy.

Another example of your line of thought. You treat the weapons as if they were isolated, insular, self-sufficient objects. There is a lot of meta-calculations to take into consideration before you jump to conclusions (possible gear/talent synergies, first and foremost).

The best 1H in game is, of course, Sataareth. Your assessment regarding Glandivalis is true for those that love to play their S&S warrior literally naked and would like to compare it to other naked warriors, which, I trust, is not a common phenomenon. 

[gtox11]

@IN1, I was not actually saying that Anderfel is worse than Fade. I was using those items stats as a base line to do the math. I know elemental damage is better than physical by a huge margin.

I guess you could say that I was comparing two items under the assumption that they have the same stats, except attack speed which, if you notice, the objective of the comparison was to show how base damage value increases as attack speed decreases. One would usually expect it to stay static, but it is not.

Regardless, are my findings completely wrong as stated? I do realize that some of my numbers leave out certain aspects, but I am working only with what I can personally see in the game. I cannot calculate hit boxes. lol And calculating the worth of elemental weapons would be silly since their value is entirely dependent on the fight. I would need to make a chart for every mob in the game in order to do that.

My goal was to point out some basic mechanics, not to dissect the entirely game as a whole.

[gtox11]

Okay seriously, IN1. Use some common sense. Look at what the objective is before you bash everything. The entire post was regarding STR needs, and I even said in the post that the results would fluctuate based on your OTHER ITEMS STATS.

Please read and understand before you "contribute".

[gtox11]

And I apologize about my incorrect statement that "most people" would find Glandivalis to be the best 1H sword. Fact of the matter was it was unimportant for the math. I was just using it's stats as a baseline.

[IN1]

gtox11 wrote...

Okay seriously, IN1. Use some common sense. Look at what the objective is before you bash everything. The entire post was regarding STR needs, and I even said in the post that the results would fluctuate based on your OTHER ITEMS STATS.

Please read and understand before you "contribute".

Bashing? Hardly. It's called constructive criticism. Bashing (AKA 'destructive criticism') is "DUDE U SUCK LOL", while I actually explain why I think you suck. Difference understood?

Did you expect a worshipping reaction to a post the value of which I honestly fail to see? The post that is, ultimately, more misleading than it is useful?

I trust I am entitled to my own opinion, and I believe I expressed my views in a correct way. On the other hand, you clearly have some kind of issue with critical remarks.

[gtox11]

The issue I have is when people reply to my posts saying that I am wrong, when in their reply they show that they have no idea what I was talking about.

But regardless, I am done with you. All you have done is say that I am wrong, but you have no offered any facts to support your claim. If I am wrong, then show me what is right. Otherwise I don't see where you have any credibility.

As far as taking constructive criticism, you didn't see me blow up at Waltzing Bear.

So like I said, until you have something to contribute, you might want to go troll somewhere else.

[IN1]

Any research should have a practical value. What do you intend to achieve by yours?

In its current state, it's misleading, since you choose to ignore a whole bunch of vital parameters, yet still try to draw global conclusions from your deficient analysis.

So like I said, until you have something to contribute, you might want to go troll somewhere else.

Politely disagreeing with you is not synonymous with trolling. You do not own this forum or this thread, and, as already stated, I am surely entitled to my opinion, whether you like it or not.

And no, I won't contribute to a largely misleading thread based on incorrect/impractical premise. 

Modifié par IN1, 31 mars 2011 - 08:50 .

[Diego Vargas]

You cant compare the practical value of 2h vs. Sword and Shield because of Giants reach.

The fact that given a cluster of mobs you multiply the damage of the sword across all the mobs int he hitbox makes the 2h sword superior in absolutely every way.

I know that my Fenris vanguard build had about 85% crit rate with buffs/gear and during my nightmare playthrough I would often retreat into a tight space to have him meatgrind groups of enemies.

[CLime]

IN1 wrote...

Okay, came up with some info using Glandivalis, which I believe most people would agree is the best 1 hander in the game due entirely to its elemental damage, as my test dummy.

Another example of your line of thought. You treat the weapons as if they were isolated, insular, self-sufficient objects. There is a lot of meta-calculations to take into consideration before you jump to conclusions (possible gear/talent synergies, first and foremost).

The best 1H in game is, of course, Sataareth. Your assessment regarding Glandivalis is true for those that love to play their S&S warrior literally naked and would like to compare it to other naked warriors, which, I trust, is not a common phenomenon. 

I'm guessing you're giving Sataareth the advantage because of the higher soft cap on +% fire damage equipment.  If you want to talk practical, most players aren't going to be able to afford the two super high-end +% fire items.  There are plenty of generic rings and belts to be found with +6% or whatever, and a few other specific items, but it's just as impractical to assume that players have an extra 140g to buy Robes of Unblemished Cleanliness as to assume no equipment at all.

It would be easy to avoid most misconceptions with a simple disclaimer about the analysis ignoring the benefits of elemental damage and two-hander aoe.

My only real complaint is that the strength DPS comparisons for warriors ignore the attack bonus.  Even with Heroic Aura you're not going to hit 90% on bosses without heavy +attack bonuses and/or Misdirection Hex.  I don't know how glancing blow damage is calculated, but there's more to strength than just raw damage.

[IN1]

I'm guessing you're giving Sataareth the advantage because of the higher soft cap on +% fire damage equipment.  If you want to talk practical, most players aren't going to be able to afford the two super high-end +% fire items.  There are plenty of generic rings and belts to be found with +6% or whatever, and a few other specific items, but it's just as impractical to assume that players have an extra 140g to buy Robes of Unblemished Cleanliness as to assume no equipment at all.

1. Yes, optimally, 88% (Sataareth) vs 59% (Glandivalis). Very significant, I'd say.

2. I disagree. It is totally possible to acquire both the Ferryman and the Robe with S&S (who is not too expensive, overall) ASAP in Act III, provided your companions' armor rune slots are all RoFs and you have Rosamund's Bulwark with 3 RoFs on switch. It's an insane boost to your money gains. Try it, I know I was shocked. 

[gtox11]

Okay, after reading some of the replies I will admit that there were some things that I left out. If you look at the post as a whole, I definitely did not write it all at once. I added bits and pieces throughout the entirety as I was writing it. If I was incorrect, then that is fine. I just simply wanted replies that would support the error claim with actual proof, not simply saying I am wrong.

What you say about hit box is completely true, but again it is something that would be pointless to calculate given how obvious the results would be. I suppose my fault came in that I had a "WoW mindset" and focused entirely on boss/single target battles, i.e. max sustained dps.

@CLime; I probably would have added a disclaimer about ignoring elemental vs physical damage (just like I did for my analysis of willpower vs str for berserkers), but honestly it just didn't even occur to me until IN1 mentioned it. I only chose those two weapons to compare because they were the only two weapons my warrior had on him at the time, and as I said before it wasn't a comparison of weapon-to-weapon. It was a simple look at how attack speed multiplies the effects of base damage. The entire result was just to show that 1h weps gain more from str/+damage, than 2h weps. A not so obvious result.

Regarding attack power, I agree.

"Another thought while I was sitting here. All of what I said was without Attack% in mind, so you would at least want enough STR or +Attack on gear to get to 100%. So that might be your "build guideline"

... is what I said regarding that exact issue.

[Jman5]

Alright, for the sake of simplicity, when would you all stop putting points in Strength for a warrior? Is around 80 a good number to stop at?

Modifié par Jman5, 31 mars 2011 - 05:13 .

[Diego Vargas]

Jman5 wrote...

Alright, for the sake of simplicity, when would you all stop putting points in Strength for a warrior? Is around 80 a good number to stop at?

No Not at all, dexterity is extremely important on all classes.

Many hard enemies like nightmare difficulty elite rogues can only be spiked to death if your chain combos like brittle/mighty blow or scythe crit.  The only way that happens if you have good strength but also very good crit rate / crit damage.

Modifié par Diego Vargas, 31 mars 2011 - 05:25 .

[WJC3688]

I was actually thinking the same thing. I'll just need to think about
it for a little bit and come up with a formula that will represent that
point when str < dex/cun, but you are right, it might be an
unachievable point. It will all come down to end-game weapons dps and
how many available attribute points there are throughout the game.
Also, it depends on how careful you want to be in terms of your HP. If
you are careful and don't "need" a ton of HPs, then you could obviously
get away with spending free points elsewhere.

My assumption with Warriors is that they'll grab the minimum 31 Con requirement for Champion Armor, and the rest of everything goes into DPS-increasing stats.  Haven't seen anyone recommend more Con than that.  As for how many attribute points you have left over after that, copied from Sabresandiego's Vanguard topic:

Makers Sigh: +2 points taken from willpower and cunning (Act 1)

Avernus Draught: +2 points from Dark Epiphany Quest (Act 1)

Greater Tome of Mortal Vessel: +2 points from Trinkets Emporium (Act 2)

Night Terrors Quest: +3 points from solving barrel puzzles (Act 2)

Night Terrors Quest: +6 points from siding with a demon (I do not negotiate with demons so I did not recieve this).

Forbidden Knowledge Quest: +2 points from destroying every evil tome except the final grimoire (Act 2)

Arcane Tome of Mortal Vessel: +1 points from Korval's Blades (Act 3)

Greater Elixer of Mortal Vessel: +2 points from Black Emporium (Any Act)

That's 20, and if you get to level 23, you'll get 69 points from levels; I don't remember what the base Con value is for Warriors, but if it's 10, you'd be left with 68 points after getting 31 Con, meaning high 70's to low 80's would be the highest achievable Str (again, not sure on the base Str value, so not sure what the exact soft cap would be).  A bit higher if you make it to level 24 or 25.

"IF" Barrage buffs your Atk Spd another 50% on top of your already
buffed Fervor Atk Spd, then we are looking at ~14 STR w/ Glandivalis,
and ~14 STR w/ Bloom. Surprising numbers.

So as you can see, if
you are a berserker/reaver and you have both Barrage and Fervor activate
most of the time, then your Dex is almost always going to be more
valuable

Now this is interesting..... but I guess the real question would be, does this stuff stay true even if you take into account the things which you've been accused of leaving out (looks like elemental damage and +% elemental damage gear is the main issue)?  I see a lot of posts about things you didn't account for, but not much about how those factors actually affect the conclusions here once accounted for.

Or maybe the implication is that the material here is unsalvageable and that Str vs Dex/Cun is not even worth thinking about once those other factors are accounted for?  I can't see that being the case though, even if you missed the mark, I don't see why we shouldn't try again and see if we can come up with useful, practical info about Str vs Dex/Cun (I'll admit that I won't be able to contribute much personally, the math involved in this topic is beyond me, but I do find it interesting and I'd appreciate the derival of useful conclusions from it).

Your comparison selectively disregards crucial damage-boosters (for
example, in the Berserker paragraph, the infinitely stacking upgraded
Adrenaline, which -- besides the insane advantages a warrior can benefit
from by equiping some of mage-oriented gear -- should be your main
stimulus for investing in Wil).

The thing about Adrenaline is that it has a small casting time, it makes Hawke pause every time you use it.  I tried doing a Berserker who stacked multiple Adrenalines and then used Second Wind before going to attack in every fight, but to my annoyance, I found that using those Adrenalines took up a second or two which could've been used to just start attacking the enemies instead, and when you are going at 200 something percent attack speed from Barrage, Haste, Lyrium Rune, etc., you could've gotten in quite a few attacks during that window of time.  Does the extra damage make up the difference even in spite of this casting time?

Modifié par WJC3688, 31 mars 2011 - 10:27 .

[CLime]

IN1 wrote...

I'm guessing you're giving Sataareth the advantage because of the higher soft cap on +% fire damage equipment.  If you want to talk practical, most players aren't going to be able to afford the two super high-end +% fire items.  There are plenty of generic rings and belts to be found with +6% or whatever, and a few other specific items, but it's just as impractical to assume that players have an extra 140g to buy Robes of Unblemished Cleanliness as to assume no equipment at all.

1. Yes, optimally, 88% (Sataareth) vs 59% (Glandivalis). Very significant, I'd say.

2. I disagree. It is totally possible to acquire both the Ferryman and the Robe with S&S (who is not too expensive, overall) ASAP in Act III, provided your companions' armor rune slots are all RoFs and you have Rosamund's Bulwark with 3 RoFs on switch. It's an insane boost to your money gains. Try it, I know I was shocked. 

Fair enough, I don't have any experience with the early RoF method.  In two playthroughs I've never had more than 100g at a time until Act 3, so I'm a bit skeptical it could provide the extra 120g, but then again I've also never tried to save up for those items.  It's too bad we don't have the old Origins stats page with total gold earned and all that.

About the stat boosts, it's worth noting that the Dark Tomes are supposedly bugged, and reading any one will prevent you from getting points from the rest and finishing the quest at all.  Though, PC players could just add the extra points with the save editor without "cheating" in the strict sense.

Modifié par CLime, 31 mars 2011 - 11:07 .

[gtox11]

Now this is interesting..... but I guess the real question would be, does this stuff stay true even if you take into account the things which you've been accused of leaving out (looks like elemental damage and +% elemental damage gear is the main issue)?  I see a lot of posts about things you didn't account for, but not much about how those factors actually affect the conclusions here once accounted for.

I personally don't see why using elemental damage or having +elem damage on an item would change the base value of adding 1 more damage.  Like I said in my post, those numbers represented the breaking point between str and dex with no other gear factored in.  If you then added 1 piece of gear that has +5 damage, and activated Elemental Weapons sustain for another +5 damage, then you would simply adjust the STR breaking point down by 20 (10 base damage = 20 str).

The only thing that I could see elemental damage itself doing is multiplying the end damage, but that doesn't affect the base.  If I factored in elem vs physical dam, I would need to know specific numbers for each mob type's elem resistances and armor, as well as any other factors that play into the final damage from each swing.  Again, this was never my intention.

Like I said, if anyone can see a flaw in this logic, please correct me.  As it seems it is a bit unbelievable how low your STR can be before Dex is more beneficial.  The only implication of low STR for damage purposes is an inherent low Attack Power, so as stated before that is another reason to ignore the "cap".  Though admittedly, it would make for a good indicator.  "If you have 100% attack power, then you most likely have more than enough STR", might be a easy tell-tale.

Your comparison selectively disregards crucial damage-boosters (for
example, in the Berserker paragraph, the infinitely stacking upgraded
Adrenaline, which -- besides the insane advantages a warrior can benefit
from by equiping some of mage-oriented gear -- should be your main
stimulus for investing in Wil).

I mean, I suppose equipping non-warrior items for the use of boosting elemental damage has it's uses as well, and I honestly didn't consider them as an option.  So I take it then that people also invest some points into Magic on their warriors as well?  I would probably have to see the specifics of these benefits before knowing the overall value of it.

Like I said several times.  My intention was never to find the "best" build for any class, but instead to point out at what point stats that were previously very valuable become far less valuable.

The thing about Adrenaline is that it has a small casting time, it makes Hawke pause every time you use it.  I tried doing a Berserker who stacked multiple Adrenalines and then used Second Wind before going to attack in every fight, but to my annoyance, I found that using those Adrenalines took up a second or two which could've been used to just start attacking the enemies instead, and when you are going at 200 something percent attack speed from Barrage, Haste, Lyrium Rune, etc., you could've gotten in quite a few attacks during that window of time.  Does the extra damage make up the difference even in spite of this casting time?

I agree completely.  I didn't consider Adrenaline as a viable option in my Willpower analysis, because I felt that it was a broken skill, and was not worth using.  Perhaps I am wrong.  I imagine though that that small pause adds up, so I don't see you reaching much more than say... 8 - 10 applications before the first starts to wear off?  If that is the case, then Adrenaline cannot even be worth more than +64% damage, and that is only for the first swing after which you will start losing stacks every second.  Seems like a waste of stamina to me.  Please correct me if it does not work this way.

I personally would have loved to see each application refresh the stack, that way basically you would become stronger the longer the battle went on.  Yes, that might be OP at some point, but it requires you to be fairly savvy with your micromanagement and most fights aren't extremely long anyways.

Modifié par gtox11, 31 mars 2011 - 11:16 .

[WJC3688]

Like I said, if anyone can see a flaw in this logic, please correct me. As it seems it is a bit unbelievable how low your STR can be before Dex is more beneficial. The only implication of low STR for damage purposes is an inherent low Attack Power, so as stated before that is another reason to ignore the "cap". Though admittedly, it would make for a good indicator. "If you have 100% attack power, then you most likely have more than enough STR", might be a easy tell-tale.

Yeah, attack power is definitely an issue. On my level 20 2Hander, even with 60 Str I still didn't quite have 100% hit even vs normal enemies, and obviously didn't have it vs bosses; if we say that you should pump Str up til you get 100% hit chance, then I think that pretty much translates to "just boost Str the whole game." So the question here would be, is it worth it to put anything into Dex/Cun even if you don't have 100% hit chance? If not, then the Warrior's stat build remains fairly straightforward (i.e., enough Con for Champion armor, rest into Str, maybe a few in Wil if you need to burst a lot of active talents at once).

I mean, I suppose equipping non-warrior items for the use of boosting elemental damage has it's uses as well, and I honestly didn't consider them as an option. So I take it then that people also invest some points into Magic on their warriors as well? I would probably have to see the specifics of these benefits before knowing the overall value of it.

IN1 actually has a topic on it:

http://social.biowar...index/6872374/1

Pretty interesting concept.

I agree completely. I didn't consider Adrenaline as a viable option in my Willpower analysis, because I felt that it was a broken skill, and was not worth using. Perhaps I am wrong. I imagine though that that small pause adds up, so I don't see you reaching much more than say... 8 - 10 applications before the first starts to wear off? If that is the case, then Adrenaline cannot even be worth more than +64% damage, and that is only for the first swing after which you will start losing stacks every second. Seems like a waste of stamina to me. Please correct me if it does not work this way.

I personally would have loved to see each application refresh the stack, that way basically you would become stronger the longer the battle went on. Yes, that might be OP at some point, but it requires you to be fairly savvy with your micromanagement and most fights aren't extremely long anyways.

That seems to be the way it works, and it is pretty sad that they designed it that way. From what I can tell, Adrenaline is right up there with Aura of Pain--you put a point into it so you can reach other, better talents, then forget it exists.