612 réponses à ce sujet

[mrjazzman]

T0rin3 wrote...

mrjazzman wrote...

You do have a point - basically the dagger/dagger builds focused on dex and cun should actually be on par with the same eqipment because post-hotfix it doesn't really matter if you spend any given point on dex or cun DPS wise (with lethality that is)
Each give you the same dmg bonus. The only difference is dex also gives you 0.5 to attack and 1 to defense and cunning makes you better at lockpicking, coercion, stealth and some rogue talents
Or did I get something completely worng?

Cunning also boosts damage via Expose Weakness, Tainted Blood (WK DLC talent) and Song of Courage. (if you happen to be bard)

That's what I meant by "some rogue talents" 

[mrjazzman]

themaxzero wrote...


Tainted Blade DLC talent.

Overall though I find a Dex based Rogue to the strongest allround Rogue. The extra damage from Cunning Rogues I find is more then made up by the better accuracy and uber defence of Dex Rogues.

Actually I still don't quite get where the dmg difference is even coming from anyway....
Which is also why I don't see a DPS downside in balancing dex and cun. (beside that fact that if we factor in hit-rate the dex one would probably win - at least without attack buffs.)

But as I said - I might have misunderstood something....
Everything mathematical that's more complex than my bank account is lost on me

[Silensfurtim]

The thing is there are more talents that benefit the CUN stats to make more damage. Ex. Exploit Weakness, Tainted Blade, Song of Courage.

DEX Rogues and DEX/CUN Rogues may look good as "survival" Rogues, but ignoring 2-3 Talents that improve damage is something you just cant ignore.

Modifié par Silensfurtim, 28 novembre 2009 - 01:58 .

[aphelion002]

Does anyone know how the results would be affected without the dex hotfix? I imagine that the dagger/dagger dex build would be affected the most? How would it change the fullsize / dagger builds?

Also, which of the builds would be affected the most by say, spreading points between dex and cun rather than pumping one exclusively? I'm looking for a rogue that can do serious damage, but not necessarily "maximizing" it but rather balancing defense and damage.

Modifié par aphelion002, 28 novembre 2009 - 03:54 .

[Discobird]

Update: gorborth helpfully found a mistake with respect to the cap on crit/backstab multipliers. I had thought that the total crit multiplier was capped at 200%, but I misread the code. Actually, it's only the bonus that's capped at 200% (not 50% as I'd thought), which means the total multiplier can go up to 350%--beyond what you can reach with existing gear. This has the following implications for equipment choice:

* Axe/dagger str: replace Blood Dragon plate with Warden Commander Armor

* Axe/dagger cun: replace Gloves of Guile with Red Jenny Seekers

* Dagger/dagger dex: you can gain 0.5 DPS by switching from Felon's Coat to Warden Commander Armor, but I judged that this was not worth losing 21 defense (-9 from loss of the Felon's Coat's defense bonus, -6 from loss of the dex bonus, and -6 from transferring points from dex to str to meet Warden Commander's req). I hope this isn't a controversial decision.

* Longsword/dagger str: replace Blood Dragon plate with Warden Commander Armor

* Everything else: no change

OP updated. Here is the new chart:

Modifié par Discobird, 28 novembre 2009 - 03:59 .

[themaxzero]

21 defence being better then 0.5 DPS is probably a safe bet.

[Doc_Lights_Out]

Just finished my first play through as a 2H-warrior...now its time for a DW rogue. Ive read through this post several times and am still debating. I am a little partial to the max DPS build (dagger/dagger CUN), but I was wondering about the survivability later in the game. If my tank goes down in battle, can a high CUN build face a crowd of darkspawn without me having to spam heal/potions? In your guys opinions, does the high DPS offset lower defense or would a dex build give the best of both worlds? If only disco bird could use his wisdom and make a corresponding defense chart for these builds...

[Silensfurtim]

In my game, my tanks rarely goes down because when my Rogue goes into backastab mode, he wipes every mob faster than any of my party members.

If Alistair and Leilana or Shale is in your party, you won't care for lower defense anymore. Rally, Song of Courage and Stone Aura raises my Rogue's defense close to 130.

Cunning Rogue has purpose of its own: To kill everyone as fast as possible. Hide / Flank > Destroy. Watch them drop like flies one by one.

My first playthrough Rogue was a balance between DEX and CUN. It's not so bad. But when I started my 2nd playthrough as Cunning Rogue, I was killing faster.

In my opinion, Cunning Rogue is more of a Role-play build rather than a standard Rogue because it forces you to play a type of gameplay, tactic and strategy which is backstabbing. You get to micromanage it alot.

Modifié par Silensfurtim, 28 novembre 2009 - 11:03 .

[Haplose]

I would also fear the attack accuracy for a strongly Cunning focused build. Sure endgame, when you have several buffs helping with this, it may become a non-issue. But a large portion of the game is getting there. And, at least in level range 8-12 I am still having issues hitting stuff sometimes with a Dex Rogue. Especially Revenants - need the Heroic Offence to hit them more reliably.

I can only imagine how much worse it is for a Cun build. And defence... well again buffed it might be fine. But I like being tough to hit even unbuffed. Though I still love Glyph of Warding more and more.

[Haplose]

Sorry, double post.

Modifié par Haplose, 28 novembre 2009 - 11:23 .

[Lokaar]

How does a CUN-based rogue play during the early/mid levels? It looks like there are too many necessary talents (momentum, lethality, stealth, exploit weakness, DW finesse etc) to get all of them quickly. Which do you prioritise?

[Haplose]

Since I already took this space, might as well use it:

How does a CUN-based rogue play during the early/mid levels? It looks
like there are too many necessary talents (momentum, lethality,
stealth, exploit weakness, DW finesse etc) to get all of them quickly.
Which do you prioritise?

Grr, that didn't work as intended. Anyway:

I have been wondering about this as well. I'm lacking Talent points WITHOUT the Lethality line.

Modifié par Haplose, 28 novembre 2009 - 11:28 .

[Silensfurtim]

Haplose wrote...

I would also fear the attack accuracy for a strongly Cunning focused build. Sure endgame, when you have several buffs helping with this, it may become a non-issue. But a large portion of the game is getting there. And, at least in level range 8-12 I am still having issues hitting stuff sometimes with a Dex Rogue. Especially Revenants - need the Heroic Offence to hit them more reliably.
I can only imagine how much worse it is for a Cun build. And defence... well again buffed it might be fine. But I like being tough to hit even unbuffed. Though I still love Glyph of Warding more and more.

to be honest, i never had a problem with attack rating with Cun Rogue, even at my early levels. as long as you only do backstabbing, youll never notice misses that much. i have 89% hitrate as a Cun Rogue. so i guess thats not bad at all.

Modifié par Silensfurtim, 28 novembre 2009 - 12:26 .

[Silensfurtim]

Lokaar wrote...

How does a CUN-based rogue play during the early/mid levels? It looks like there are too many necessary talents (momentum, lethality, stealth, exploit weakness, DW finesse etc) to get all of them quickly. Which do you prioritise?

i never really paid attention to the talent order. but i remember i prioritized Momentum, Lethality and Combat stealth first since thats your bread and butter.

if theres someone who could build a CUN rogue with level-talent progression, thats would be nice. i would do it, but im kinda tired playing rogue since i played 2 playthroughs with it (DEX/CUN and CUN).

Modifié par Silensfurtim, 28 novembre 2009 - 12:29 .

[mrjazzman]

Silensfurtim wrote...

My first playthrough Rogue was a balance between DEX and CUN. It's not so bad. But when I started my 2nd playthrough as Cunning Rogue, I was killing faster.

Uhm just a quick question. Was your balanced dex/cun Rogue post-hotfix? Because if not then he'd kill a lot faster now than he did back then.....
Still not as quickly as the pure cunning one I guess but anyway.

[Silensfurtim]

yes my DEX/CUN Rogue used the hotfix.

[Silensfurtim]

Here's a video of my Cun Rogue not having a problem with Loghain.

[mrjazzman]

HA! oooh big bad boy got one attack in before being defeated

[Silensfurtim]

its a war-Cry of defeat lo.

anyway, my DEX/CUN rogue took longer to kill Loghain.

Modifié par Silensfurtim, 28 novembre 2009 - 02:48 .

[Silensfurtim]

i reloaded and respeced my rogue mid game as sa full DEX rogue. i find myself enjoying the no-miss attacks and enemy misses. though i feel the damage is not quite satisfying compared to the CUN Rogue. with its high attack rating and high defense, i really dont see the point of doing backstabs. its like saying, "why would I backstab if they cant hit me anyway?" or "my hits dont miss upfront, so why would i backstab?" so the DEX build feels more like a "Duelist" Rogue than an "Assassin" one.

Modifié par Silensfurtim, 28 novembre 2009 - 04:04 .

[Zenthar Aseth]

What's the DEX-STR-CUN ratio as a CUN dagger/dagger rogue? Where does your DEX and STR max?

[Silensfurtim]

its in the first page.

[Rynas]

Silensfurtim wrote...

i reloaded and respeced my rogue mid game as sa full DEX rogue. i find myself enjoying the no-miss attacks and enemy misses. though i feel the damage is not quite satisfying compared to the CUN Rogue. with its high attack rating and high defense, i really dont see the point of doing backstabs. its like saying, "why would I backstab if they cant hit me anyway?" or "my hits dont miss upfront, so why would i backstab?" so the DEX build feels more like a "Duelist" Rogue than an "Assassin" one.

Yep, that's the tradeoff you make, I guess. Higher damage vs. higher attack/defense.

I'm liking the DEX rogue at the moment, but I'm sure I'll re-roll at some point as a DEX/CUN rogue.

[Silensfurtim]

im beginning to think that its better for a CUN Rogue to take Assassin/Bard specializations rather than Assassin/Duelist.



Dueling and Keen Defense only grants you +10 Attack and +10 Defense. While, Song of Courage gives you high Attack, Damage and Critical Chance bonuses with high CUN. I think its a better tradeoff.



And who needs Upset Balance if you have Below the Belt and Cripple. While Pinpoint Striking gives you less than a minute of pure criticals regardless of angle, I don't think it matters for a Rogue who does backstabbing and coup de grace-ing all the time.

[mrjazzman]

Silensfurtim wrote...

i reloaded and respeced my rogue mid game as sa full DEX rogue. i find myself enjoying the no-miss attacks and enemy misses. though i feel the damage is not quite satisfying compared to the CUN Rogue. with its high attack rating and high defense, i really dont see the point of doing backstabs. its like saying, "why would I backstab if they cant hit me anyway?" or "my hits dont miss upfront, so why would i backstab?" so the DEX build feels more like a "Duelist" Rogue than an "Assassin" one.

So overall the pure dex and the pure cun one feel more satisfying than the balanced one?