612 réponses à ce sujet

[Silensfurtim]

seems like it. its either you enjoy high attack/defense or enjoy high damage. the middleground feels like lacking for me.



maybe the DEX/CUN build would benefit other weapon types aside from Dagger/Dagger.

[Chragen]

I'd probably go for ranger instead of duelist to be honest. If you take ranger as your second spec you'll already have really high attack power from gear, attributes and companion buffs. So you might as well get the insane dps buff from the ranger pet. Also at that point you'll have a decent stamina pool so you can keep momentum and the pet up at the same time as still have enough stamina for some abilitys.

[DA CidALMIGHTY]

So how does the Bow work?

[aphelion002]

aphelion002 wrote...

Does anyone know how the results would be affected without the dex hotfix? I imagine that the dagger/dagger dex build would be affected the most? How would it change the fullsize / dagger builds?

Also, which of the builds would be affected the most by say, spreading points between dex and cun rather than pumping one exclusively? I'm looking for a rogue that can do serious damage, but not necessarily "maximizing" it but rather balancing defense and damage.

Hate to quote myself, but does anyone have any input on this matter? If I build a roughly even dex/cun build, is it better to go for a fullsize weapon or dual dagger? This is without dex hotfix.

[mrjazzman]

I haven't done the math really but the hotfix shouldn't have any influence on a balanced dex/cun build. You don't get dmg from dex without the fix but you get twice as much from cun. All the cun based ability bonuses stay the same.



If you plan to push dex heavily install the fix. If you keep it balanced it doesn't matter and if you plan to up cun in the future you don't need it.....

[torath77]

Slightly offtopic, but this seems the best topic for it:



Question about Haste: As stated in the OP it increases your Attackspeed by a multiplyer.

We know that base attack speed für DW is 1,5 sec.



So is the Haste-muliplyer based on this value? That would mean that slow weapon styles do gain the most from this bonus as it is percent based and 30% from let's say 3sec is more than 30% from 1,5secs. Perhaps this is the reason why momentum is faster than haste, as it's not meant for Broad and Sword and Greatsword Warriors but for the DualWield guys.



So haste weould be a lot more useful for Greatsword fighters than für dual wielder (which already have momentum).

[Sarevok Anchev]

Why should you use Thorn of the Dead Gods for dual-gaffer Rogues?

There are much better substitutes for use as offhand weapons besides The Roses Thorn:

-Dead Thaig Shanker

-The Edge

-Fang



The first one is in the Shale-DLC, but yo used also Helm Of Honnleath, so that should be ok.

The second is new, but most forumites should have it now

The third one is only for City Elfs :/

[Seraphael]

DA CidALMIGHTY wrote...

So how does the Bow work?

Would have loved to see ranged comparisons as well.

[T0rin3]

Ranged comparisons are probably going to be extremely biased, as there really is only 1 viable build.

[Twenynge]

Discobird wrote...

 IV: CONCLUSIONS


The dagger/dagger dex build has two advantages that aren't reflected in the numbers. The first is a sky-high defense. Second is much better ranged DPS via shortbows with the dex hotfix. The other builds are probably limited to using lesser-tier longbows if they want ranged damage.

Really?  It seems like the cunning builds would fare well by using longbows, and all cunning builds seem to have the required dex to equip the top tier longbows.  Do the distance based attack penalties create issues with hitting the target?  Can anyone chime in with anecdotal evidence?

[T0rin3]

Oh, I was referring to the cunning build being the only viable one, although I do have some testing to do tonight with the crappy-shortbow dex based build.

[Maedryc]

Sarevok Anchev wrote...

Why should you use Thorn of the Dead Gods for dual-gaffer Rogues?
There are much better substitutes for use as offhand weapons besides The Roses Thorn:
-Dead Thaig Shanker
-The Edge
-Fang

The first one is in the Shale-DLC, but yo used also Helm Of Honnleath, so that should be ok.
The second is new, but most forumites should have it now
The third one is only for City Elfs :/

Because +damage stacks. So, if you're wielding Thorn of the Dead Gods ( the +3 version ) and The Edge (+5 damage) , you end up with +8 damage on both weapons.

[Ylaguardia]

Twenynge wrote...

Discobird wrote...

 IV: CONCLUSIONS


The dagger/dagger dex build has two advantages that aren't reflected in the numbers. The first is a sky-high defense. Second is much better ranged DPS via shortbows with the dex hotfix. The other builds are probably limited to using lesser-tier longbows if they want ranged damage.

Really?  It seems like the cunning builds would fare well by using longbows, and all cunning builds seem to have the required dex to equip the top tier longbows.  Do the distance based attack penalties create issues with hitting the target?  Can anyone chime in with anecdotal evidence?

My Dagger/Dagger CUN is currently at lvl 21 (I'm just past loghain's duel), with assassin and bard specialization, and I have no problem hitting with bows at all (self-buffed, plus Wynne's automatic heroic offense)... and I have only 42 dex (26 base + 16 gear).

Tainted blade (which is ridiculously overpowered when paired with Mark of Death, by the way: I play on nightmare, post-hotfix, and NOTHING is a challenge when elite monsters don't last 5 seconds ) works with bows, so even archer builds would have to favor CUN to some point.

I have 88 CUN (81+7) and my bow dmg is displayed as 81,3 per hit at the character's screen, 19,2% crit chance and 20 armor pen.

So, answering your question, hybrid cun/dex builds would be superior dmg wise, IMO.

[Scound]

For Cunning-Centered Dagger builds, wouldn't the Warden Commanders Armor (15% Crit damage increase) offset the Felons Cloak?!?

As stated 26 Strenght is necessary to equip it, you therefore trade 6 Dex and 6 Cunning (no Felons Cloak and 6 more Strenght points) for 15% Crit damage. This seems to be quite a good tradeoff, or am I missing something important here?

[Discobird]

Sarevok Anchev wrote...

Why should you use Thorn of the Dead Gods for dual-gaffer Rogues?
There are much better substitutes for use as offhand weapons besides The Roses Thorn:
-Dead Thaig Shanker
-The Edge
-Fang

The first one is in the Shale-DLC, but yo used also Helm Of Honnleath, so that should be ok.
The second is new, but most forumites should have it now
The third one is only for City Elfs :/

Dead Thaig Shanker contributes less to DPS than Thorn of the Dead Gods.  It has some nice non-DPS benefits though.

Edge didn't exist the last time I looked through a list of daggers, but it does indeed slightly outperform Thorn of the Dead Gods against enemies with less than 14 armor (for the dex rogue) or 21 armor (for the cunning rogue).  Against enemies with thicker armor than that, Thorn's 3 damage + 3 AP is worth more than Edge's +5 damage. 

Fang is worse than TotDG for dex rogues.  For cunning rogues, it is very very slightly better than Edge (by less than 1 DPS).  It does have an additional rune slot which counts for something.

Given that Edge is no longer available to new players and Fang is only available to city elves quite late in the game, I'm inclined to leave TotDG as the baseline in DPS calcs and include a comment about other offhand choices in the gear section of my OP.  Anyone object to that?

[EDIT] updated OP with alternative offhands

Modifié par Discobird, 02 décembre 2009 - 01:30 .

[Discobird]

Twenynge wrote...

Really?  It seems like the cunning builds would fare well by using longbows, and all cunning builds seem to have the required dex to equip the top tier longbows.  Do the distance based attack penalties create issues with hitting the target?  Can anyone chime in with anecdotal evidence?

Assuming as I do that the dex hotfix is installed, cunning builds are effectively forced to use longbows (50/50 str/dex split) while dex builds can choose to use shortbows or xbows instead (both of which are 100% dex-based).

I don't want to get into a full archery DPS analysis because that'd be beyond the scope of this thread. But we can do some casual calculations.

The dagger/dagger cunning build has 48 dex and 75 cunning after gear. This gives us an expected bonus damage per hit of:

103 [total dex and cunning points over 10] * 0.5 [50/50 split] * 1.05 [attrib mult for longbows] * 0.625 [random factor] + (5 + 65 * 0.2) [tainted blood] = 51.8

The dagger/dagger dex build has 94 dex and 28 cunning after gear. This gives us an expected bonus damage per hit of:

84 [dex] * 1 [shortbows are 100% dex-based] * 1 [attrib mult for shortbows] * 0.625 [random factor] + (5 + 18 *0.2) [tainted blood] = 61.1

So the dex build gets about 10 more points of bonus damage per hit than the dagger/dagger cunning build, which more than outweighs the base damage difference between shortbows and longbows and the fact that unique longbows have better mods than unique shortbows. This picture gets somewhat worse for the cunning rogue if he uses something other than the dagger/dagger build.

Granted, the damage advantage of dex rogues is not huge. When I wrote that part of the guide I forgot that Tainted Blade applies to ranged attacks as well as melee. I'll rewrite it accordingly.

[Discobird]

Scound wrote...

For Cunning-Centered Dagger builds, wouldn't the Warden Commanders Armor (15% Crit damage increase) offset the Felons Cloak?!?

As stated 26 Strenght is necessary to equip it, you therefore trade 6 Dex and 6 Cunning (no Felons Cloak and 6 more Strenght points) for 15% Crit damage. This seems to be quite a good tradeoff, or am I missing something important here?

+15% crit damage only adds about 3.6 damage per hit for a dagger/dagger cunning rogue.  Not worth the tradeoff.

[Discobird]

torath77 wrote...

Slightly offtopic, but this seems the best topic for it:

Question about Haste: As stated in the OP it increases your Attackspeed by a multiplyer.
We know that base attack speed für DW is 1,5 sec.

So is the Haste-muliplyer based on this value?

Haste and Momentum multipliers are applied at the end, after accounting for wield style and weapon type. 

Sample attack intervals:

DW dagger/dagger: 1s
DW axe/dagger: 1.2s
2H greatsword: 2.5s

All of these numbers get multiplied by 0.75 if you activate Haste and have no other speed modifiers active (I haven't done any research into how or whether Haste stacks with other speed buffs).

That would mean that slow weapon styles do gain the most from this bonus as it is percent based and 30% from let's say 3sec is more than 30% from 1,5secs.

You could think of it that way.  I think ti's more helpful to think of Haste as giving the same percentage boost to DPS for all melee attackers.

[Twenynge]

Discobird wrote...

Assuming as I do that the dex hotfix is installed, cunning builds are effectively forced to use longbows (50/50 str/dex split) while dex builds can choose to use shortbows or xbows instead (both of which are 100% dex-based).

I don't want to get into a full archery DPS analysis because that'd be beyond the scope of this thread. But we can do some casual calculations.

The dagger/dagger cunning build has 48 dex and 75 cunning after gear. This gives us an expected bonus damage per hit of:

103 [total dex and cunning points over 10] * 0.5 [50/50 split] * 1.05 [attrib mult for longbows] * 0.625 [random factor] + (5 + 65 * 0.2) [tainted blood] = 51.8

The dagger/dagger dex build has 94 dex and 28 cunning after gear. This gives us an expected bonus damage per hit of:

84 [dex] * 1 [shortbows are 100% dex-based] * 1 [attrib mult for shortbows] * 0.625 [random factor] + (5 + 18 *0.2) [tainted blood] = 61.1

So the dex build gets about 10 more points of bonus damage per hit than the dagger/dagger cunning build, which more than outweighs the base damage difference between shortbows and longbows and the fact that unique longbows have better mods than unique shortbows. This picture gets somewhat worse for the cunning rogue if he uses something other than the dagger/dagger build.

Granted, the damage advantage of dex rogues is not huge. When I wrote that part of the guide I forgot that Tainted Blade applies to ranged attacks as well as melee. I'll rewrite it accordingly.

While this may be outside the scope of the thread, I would say that Bioware has introduced a bit of a scaling problem into the game mechanics with respect to bows.  Seeing as how each point into the relevant attribute is effectively worth half as much for longbows as it is shortbows,  longbows seem to lose their luster after low levels (speaking purely from a ranged based dps perspective, that is).  Perhaps they realized this and attempted to rectify the situation by not including any good top tier shortbows, or merely intended longbows to be used by strength based characters.  Would the base damage scaling of a fighter be able to offset the scaling discrepancies of the bows?  

Speaking of "out of the scope", is there any particular issue with including attack/defense modifiers into these calculations other than the fact that we have no idea what a typical defense value is for enemies?  After all, we don't know armor values of enemies either, yet they've been taken into account in the calculations... 

Modifié par Twenynge, 02 décembre 2009 - 01:35 .

[Guyven Greycloud]

Discobird wrote...

 IV: CONCLUSIONS

Dagger/dagger cunning is the clear DPS leader.  Axe/dagger cun and longsword/dagger cun are about tied for 2nd place.  The rest of the builds are pretty close in DPS, with the fullsize/fullsize builds lagging behind their fullsize/dagger counterparts.

Please bear in mind that this analysis assumes the same hit-rate across all builds, since I can't calculate real hit rates without knowing monster defense. In practice the cunning builds will likely hit less often than the other builds unless boosted by party buffs. Those who have played a high level cunning rogue says the hitrate difference is not large with the right attack rating boosts.

Also bear in mind that the cunning builds require three more talents than the str/dex builds (for Lethality). This tends to reduce their utility in the early game since they'll have a hard time finding spare points for Lockpicking. By the end game, though, they have enough cunning to unlock or disarm anything while needing only 1 point in lockpicking (or zero for the dagger/dagger cunning build).

The dagger/dagger dex build has two advantages that aren't reflected in the numbers. The first is a sky-high defense. Second is somewhat better ranged DPS via shortbows or xbows with the dex hotfix. The other builds are limited to using longbows if they want ranged damage.

Note that any build wishing to use bows/xbows should consider ditching Warden Commander armor/Blood Dragon plate for something lighter to avoid the speed penalty. In that case you'll have to make up the missing +crit damage modifier somewhere else.

I'm not into maths, but nevertheless I like posts like these as they are extremely informative.  One flaw I think I see in your comparisons (at least based on my assumptions) is that you left out lethality for non-Cunning builds.  I don't know about the rest, but for me, I know that I would want lethality on my Strength-based DW rogue even if I miss out on the damage from Cunning as the tooltip on Lethality says 'increase critical chance'.  So, if a Strength-based rogue takes up Lethality, wouldn't a higher critical chance result in more DPS?  Just a thought. 

[Matthew Young CT]

To clarify, the max +crit/backstab damage% is 200, not 50?

[T0rin3]

Matthew Young CT wrote...

To clarify, the max +crit/backstab damage% is 200, not 50?

Yes.

[plecha]

I want to comment a bit here. Just finished my first playthrough. I developed my character like i felt fit for the most part - ended up level 23 with basically even split dex/cun (nearing 60 on both after boni). I didn't take the whole 3rd dw line, rather i enjoyed playing around with riposte, punisher and the like ... a bit more diverse as 'just' running momentum i would say . Max damage was 92 or so, 90 % hit rate and 41 % contribution.

all in all i think it gets too easy anyway at around level 15 or so (except certain encounters), especially the whole endgame was a bit of a letdown in terms of combat difficulty.

I might try that momentum thingy out sometime, but honestly i do feel like enemies went down fast enough for me, after all you have to move around a bit for each one to get into backstabbing position. instead i rather liked to have two stunning abilities

[edit] I know this doesn't contribute much as in straight dps numbers, but maybe from a gameplay perspective. hope you don't mind.

Modifié par plecha, 02 décembre 2009 - 09:28 .

[EleventhLokust]

I have no idea where this item is obtained, but I was looking at amulets on the dragon age wiki site and noticed the Seeker's Circle +1 Cun +10 Mental Resistance. That could probably be used in the equipment list for the dagger/dagger Cun build.