612 réponses à ce sujet

[MarcAntony]

Well, that is deceptive



A normal swing does 100% damage.



A normal crit does 150% damage.



But, with gear, you can increase the crit damage to be double (aka 200% damage).



That does not mean that you can stack 200% increased critical damage and keep getting bigger and bigger crits. After 50% extra crit damage from gear, you will reach 200% crit damage – and thus, you will be maxed out.



In other words, anything over 50% extra crit damage on gear is wasted.

[T0rin3]

MarcAntony wrote...

Well, that is deceptive

A normal swing does 100% damage.

A normal crit does 150% damage.

But, with gear, you can increase the crit damage to be double (aka 200% damage).

That does not mean that you can stack 200% increased critical damage and keep getting bigger and bigger crits. After 50% extra crit damage from gear, you will reach 200% crit damage – and thus, you will be maxed out.

In other words, anything over 50% extra crit damage on gear is wasted.

Wrong.

[mrjazzman]

probably a stupid question - if the dw attack intervall is the average of the two weapons.

Dows that mean for a character wielding one weapon it's twice the value of that weapon?

[T0rin3]

Lemonio wrote...

what should my cunning rogue wear before getting felon's coat

Shadow of the Empire

[Discobird]

Twenynge wrote...

While this may be outside the scope of the thread, I would say that Bioware has introduced a bit of a scaling problem into the game mechanics with respect to bows.  Seeing as how each point into the relevant attribute is effectively worth half as much for longbows as it is shortbows,  longbows seem to lose their luster after low levels (speaking purely from a ranged based dps perspective, that is).  Perhaps they realized this and attempted to rectify the situation by not including any good top tier shortbows, or merely intended longbows to be used by strength based characters.  Would the base damage scaling of a fighter be able to offset the scaling discrepancies of the bows?  

Keep in mind the dex hotfix isn't official, Bioware might yet tweak with the balance. If by "base damage scaling of a fighter" you mean the level-based bonus damage of warriors, I don't see how that affects balance since it's the same no matter what weapon you use.

Speaking of "out of the scope", is there any particular issue with including attack/defense modifiers into these calculations other than the fact that we have no idea what a typical defense value is for enemies?  After all, we don't know armor values of enemies either, yet they've been taken into account in the calculations... 

No issue, I would like to include attack/defense info but I just haven't got around to it yet (some other people have asked the same thing).

[Discobird]

Guyven Greycloud wrote...
So, if a Strength-based rogue takes up Lethality, wouldn't a higher critical chance result in more DPS?  Just a thought. 

Backstabs are basically autocrits, thus +crit chance mods only help when you're not backstabbing. No rogue can literally backstab 100% of the time, but you can backstab enough that's it's not worth taking three talents just to increase your crit chance by 10 points. (Below the Belt and Deadly Strike are both pretty bad and not worth the talent points by themselves IMO.)

[Discobird]

EleventhLokust wrote...

I have no idea where this item is obtained, but I was looking at amulets on the dragon age wiki site and noticed the Seeker's Circle +1 Cun +10 Mental Resistance. That could probably be used in the equipment list for the dagger/dagger Cun build.

I believe Seeker's Circle is for Leliana only?

[Discobird]

MarcAntony wrote...
That does not mean that you can stack 200% increased critical damage and keep getting bigger and bigger crits. After 50% extra crit damage from gear, you will reach 200% crit damage – and thus, you will be maxed out.

In other words, anything over 50% extra crit damage on gear is wasted.

The crit multiplier goes up to 3.5 (1.5 natural, +2 from gear). It doesn't cap at 2 as I previously thought.

[Discobird]

mrjazzman wrote...

probably a stupid question - if the dw attack intervall is the average of the two weapons.
Dows that mean for a character wielding one weapon it's twice the value of that weapon?

No, your attack interval won't be doubled.

[Discobird]

plecha wrote...

I want to comment a bit here. Just finished my first playthrough. I developed my character like i felt fit for the most part - ended up level 23 with basically even split dex/cun (nearing 60 on both after boni). I didn't take the whole 3rd dw line, rather i enjoyed playing around with riposte, punisher and the like ... a bit more diverse as 'just' running momentum i would say . Max damage was 92 or so, 90 % hit rate and 41 % contribution.

all in all i think it gets too easy anyway at around level 15 or so (except certain encounters), especially the whole endgame was a bit of a letdown in terms of combat difficulty.

I might try that momentum thingy out sometime, but honestly i do feel like enemies went down fast enough for me, after all you have to move around a bit for each one to get into backstabbing position. instead i rather liked to have two stunning abilities

[edit] I know this doesn't contribute much as in straight dps numbers, but maybe from a gameplay perspective. hope you don't mind.

Thanks, posts like this are always helpful.  You're absolutely right that you can do plenty of damage and beat this game without needing to maximize your DPS.  For most people DPS will be only one out of many legitimate factors to consider when planning a character.

[Silensfurtim]

actually a DEX/CUN build is a decent build. i actually finished my first rogue playthrough without using Momentum. I thought it would be uber stamina drainer. it turns out its not.

[Timortis]

Disco, since the crit % cap is higher than you originally thought, are you sure Crow Dagger doesn't outscale TotDG?

[Discobird]

Timortis wrote...

Disco, since the crit % cap is higher than you originally thought, are you sure Crow Dagger doesn't outscale TotDG?

+15% crit mult only adds about 3.5 points of damage per backstab for the two dagger/dagger builds.  So Crow Dagger is very slightly better than TotDG against low armor enemies and worse against heavier armored enemies.

[Twenynge]

Discobird wrote...


Keep in mind the dex hotfix isn't official, Bioware might yet tweak with the balance. If by "base damage scaling of a fighter" you mean the level-based bonus damage of warriors, I don't see how that affects balance since it's the same no matter what weapon you use.

 

My rationale was that most warriors would choose longbows instead of shortbows, and their higher base damage would help equalize the damage potential of a warrior using a longbow against a rogue using a shortbow.  Sort of a throw away thought anyway and not really worth discussing further.

A few questions of note, however.  I've been exploring the toolset a bit and was wondering how you arrived at some formulas you are using, specifically the formula for exploit weakness.  Specifically, it appears the script calculates the damage by generating a random number between 0 and 1 (minimum 0.2) and then multiplies it by the character's (cunning - 10)/3.   The equation would be .173*(cunning - 10).  Is this discrepancy just a matter of rounding?

Also, how are you calculating bonuses to critical/backstab damage?  If a character has an item that gives 15% additional critical damage, is it calculated by multiplying 1.50 times 1.15 or do you add .15 to 1.5?

[Romeo Longsword]

plecha wrote...

I want to comment a bit here. Just finished my first playthrough. I developed my character like i felt fit for the most part - ended up level 23 with basically even split dex/cun (nearing 60 on both after boni). I didn't take the whole 3rd dw line, rather i enjoyed playing around with riposte, punisher and the like ... a bit more diverse as 'just' running momentum i would say . Max damage was 92 or so, 90 % hit rate and 41 % contribution.

all in all i think it gets too easy anyway at around level 15 or so (except certain encounters), especially the whole endgame was a bit of a letdown in terms of combat difficulty.

I might try that momentum thingy out sometime, but honestly i do feel like enemies went down fast enough for me, after all you have to move around a bit for each one to get into backstabbing position. instead i rather liked to have two stunning abilities

[edit] I know this doesn't contribute much as in straight dps numbers, but maybe from a gameplay perspective. hope you don't mind.

I have done somthing simular to yours in my first run through, Dex and Cun quite close to each other and taken the second line of the dual weapon talents.

I am going through the game the second time this time on Nightmare difficulty, again, play as a Dex Dual Dagger rogue.

Once I have hit level 14 or so the game just got very easy, however I do heavily reply on my mage to do some crowd control.

At level 17 currently, with about 75 Dex, I have about 120 defense. But because I lack the money my offense is pretty weak, about 30 - 40 dmg per strike.

The defence is really good and often I out tank my tank (shael or Alistiar), but damage could be better, NW after level 15 is pretty easy for a rogue or anyone with mage in the party.

[Silensfurtim]

quick question: does offhand paralyze runes trigger?



ive done testing but im really not sure if it works. anyone here tested it?

[MarcAntony]

Discobird wrote...

MarcAntony wrote...
That does not mean that you can stack 200% increased critical damage and keep getting bigger and bigger crits. After 50% extra crit damage from gear, you will reach 200% crit damage – and thus, you will be maxed out.

In other words, anything over 50% extra crit damage on gear is wasted.

The crit multiplier goes up to 3.5 (1.5 natural, +2 from gear). It doesn't cap at 2 as I previously thought.

Ahhh, good to know.  Thanks for the correction.

Per usual, you are straight aces Disco


Edited:  Back to the numbers - 350% damage on a crit is insane!  That is basically unlimited, ya?  Its tantalizing to have such a massive crit multiplier because the gear in the game isn't good enough to really take advantage of it.....unless I'm missing something here. 

I'm still only half-way through my first play through, so anything I say is simply conjecture or pulled from your posts - but my gosh, the thought of capping the full 350% multi is hawwwwt.   That means if your normal swings do 50damage, then your crits/backstabs would be hitting for 175/each     0_0        Sexy

Modifié par MarcAntony, 03 décembre 2009 - 04:22 .

[EvilDeity]

Discobird wrote...

EleventhLokust wrote...

I have no idea where this item is obtained, but I was looking at amulets on the dragon age wiki site and noticed the Seeker's Circle +1 Cun +10 Mental Resistance. That could probably be used in the equipment list for the dagger/dagger Cun build.

I believe Seeker's Circle is for Leliana only?

This is true.

Silensfurtim wrote...

quick question: does offhand paralyze runes trigger?

ive done testing but im really not sure if it works. anyone here tested it?

I've not tested it, but from reading this topic my understanding is that offhand runes only trigger when you're not backstabbing.

When I start my Rogue I plan to pile paralyze runes on my offhand so that when I'm not in a position to backstab or the enemy is normally immune I can paralyze them and then be able to backstab.

Modifié par EvilDeity, 03 décembre 2009 - 04:41 .

[mrjazzman]

uhm do paralyze rune stack?

If so how bug are the chances for several runes.

I'm thinking about all paralyze runes - would that make sense with coup de grace?

[plecha]

Personally i wouldn't overly rely on Paralyze runes. While i usually had one equipped in main- and offhand, they do trigger rather seldom imo. But it's still nice if they do .



I'm not sure, but i would agree that runes in the offhand that effect the enemy on hit do not trigger when backstabbing - judging by the elemental damages when backstabbing / not backstabbing. I've always put thigs like spell resistance or physical resistance in the offhand.

[Discobird]

Twenynge wrote...
A few questions of note, however.  I've been exploring the toolset a bit and was wondering how you arrived at some formulas you are using, specifically the formula for exploit weakness.  Specifically, it appears the script calculates the damage by generating a random number between 0 and 1 (minimum 0.2) and then multiplies it by the character's (cunning - 10)/3.   The equation would be .173*(cunning - 10).  Is this discrepancy just a matter of rounding?

No you're absolutely right, I made a stupid math error. The expected damage from Exploit Weakness should be (0.52/3) * (cunning-10), not 0.2 * (cunning-10). Luckily the difference is very small and doesn't change any of the rankings. I'll update my OP in a bit. Thanks for pointing this out.

[EDIT] Here's the updated DPS chart:

If a character has an item that gives 15% additional critical damage, is it calculated by multiplying 1.50 times 1.15 or do you add .15 to 1.5?

The latter. Here's the relevant code from GetCriticalDamageModifier() in combat_damage_h.nss:

return COMBAT_CRITICAL_DAMAGE_MODIFIER + (GetCreatureProperty(oAttacker, 54 /*PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_CRITICAL_RANGE*/) / 100.0);

COMBAT_CRITICAL_DAMAGE_MODIFIER is a const float initialized to 1.5. PROPERTYATTRIBUTE_CRITICAL_RANGE is the total crit damage modifier from equipment.

Modifié par Discobird, 03 décembre 2009 - 08:57 .

[EvilDeity]

mrjazzman wrote...

uhm do paralyze rune stack?
If so how bug are the chances for several runes.
I'm thinking about all paralyze runes - would that make sense with coup de grace?

Not 100% sure but I think they do stack in that each one has its chance to cause paralysis. For example: Two 5% chances to cause paralysis from two runes, not one 10% chance to. (Those percentages aren't based on anything by the way, they're just to demonstrate.)

Modifié par EvilDeity, 03 décembre 2009 - 09:17 .