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[T0rin3]

EvilDeity wrote...

Silensfurtim wrote...

if you balance a rogue with similar base stats like 40 DEX/ 40 CUN, the DEX stat will be higher later on because of the item stat bonuses. here is my CUN rogue.



i got +20 DEX bonus from items.

Which buffs did you have to achieve that hit rate? Rally and Heroic Offence whenever possible?

89 is pretty low for a backstabbing rogue, that's pretty on par with the average cunning rogue who backstabs a lot. Though most people do chain cast heroic offence on their rogue. I used rally and heroic offense and was sitting at around 91 or 92% at the end of the game.

[EvilDeity]

I didn't think it was very high to be honest, just trying to work things out in my head, as once I finish up my mage my plan thus far has been to go Bard/Assassin, but looking at those numbers I'm thinking I might need the extra attack from Duelist.

[T0rin3]

You don't want to skip Assassin as a melee rogue, especially a cunning based melee rogue, but Duelist and Bard are pretty interchangable as far as attack rating. The main reason to go bard is for the damage bonus from song of courage. At high cunning, the attack bonus from SoC is about the same as you get from Duelist.

[YR_Lim]

whats good about thorn of the dead gods?

[T0rin3]

T6 dagger, 2 rune slots, +damage, +ap... pretty vanilla, but solid. And keep in mind there are 3 different versions of Thorn of the Dead Gods, the one you want is in the Deep Roads, one of the latter areas.

[EvilDeity]

T0rin3 wrote...

You don't want to skip Assassin as a melee rogue, especially a cunning based melee rogue, but Duelist and Bard are pretty interchangable as far as attack rating. The main reason to go bard is for the damage bonus from song of courage. At high cunning, the attack bonus from SoC is about the same as you get from Duelist.

Oh yeah I'd swap Duelist for Bard, never Assassin. You've been quite a big help, I've used Song of Courage for 1.5 playthroughs now and somehow managed to miss the fact that in also provides an attack bonus.  So thanks for finally getting that through my thick head. Bard/Assassin it is then.

Modifié par EvilDeity, 04 décembre 2009 - 03:24 .

[Silensfurtim]

EvilDeity wrote...

Silensfurtim wrote...

if you balance a rogue with similar base stats like 40 DEX/ 40 CUN, the DEX stat will be higher later on because of the item stat bonuses. here is my CUN rogue.



i got +20 DEX bonus from items.

Which buffs did you have to achieve that hit rate? Rally and Heroic Offence whenever possible?

Rally, SoC, Stone Aura

[Silensfurtim]

T0rin3 wrote...

EvilDeity wrote...

Silensfurtim wrote...

if you balance a rogue with similar base stats like 40 DEX/ 40 CUN, the DEX stat will be higher later on because of the item stat bonuses. here is my CUN rogue.



i got +20 DEX bonus from items.

Which buffs did you have to achieve that hit rate? Rally and Heroic Offence whenever possible?

89 is pretty low for a backstabbing rogue, that's pretty on par with the average cunning rogue who backstabs a lot. Though most people do chain cast heroic offence on their rogue. I used rally and heroic offense and was sitting at around 91 or 92% at the end of the game.

how much attack rating does Heroic Offense give? damn ive never thought of chain casting that spell.

[Silensfurtim]

hmm i tried respeccing my end game rogue to an Assassin/Bard. I used SoC but with my high CUN it only gave +9 attack?

[Siven80]

Song of Courage: gains 3 attack (+ 10% of cunning modifier ) , 2 Damage(+5% cunning modifier), Crit chance 3% (+10% cunning modifier).

So remember a modifer is the stat -10.
So 70 cunning Song of Courage would give you 9 Attack, 5 Damage and 9% Crit.
40 Cunning would give you 6 Attack, 3.5 Damage and 6%Crit.

Its why i generally stop at 40 base cunning, more from items is a bonus and put the rest in Dex. the extra hit from Dex ( 0.5 per point) IMO is a better option.

Its an option. Its not min-max, but i prefer it tbh. More hits the better. I do the same on my Longbow archer too.

Modifié par Siven80, 04 décembre 2009 - 03:57 .

[T0rin3]

Silensfurtim wrote...

T0rin3 wrote...

EvilDeity wrote...

Silensfurtim wrote...

if you balance a rogue with similar base stats like 40 DEX/ 40 CUN, the DEX stat will be higher later on because of the item stat bonuses. here is my CUN rogue.



i got +20 DEX bonus from items.

Which buffs did you have to achieve that hit rate? Rally and Heroic Offence whenever possible?

89 is pretty low for a backstabbing rogue, that's pretty on par with the average cunning rogue who backstabs a lot. Though most people do chain cast heroic offence on their rogue. I used rally and heroic offense and was sitting at around 91 or 92% at the end of the game.

how much attack rating does Heroic Offense give? damn ive never thought of chain casting that spell.

+10. But by chain casting, I mean over and over, one after each other. (with a tactic) It doesn't stack, you can just keep it up constantly.

[T0rin3]

Silensfurtim wrote...

hmm i tried respeccing my end game rogue to an Assassin/Bard. I used SoC but with my high CUN it only gave +9 attack?

Sounds about right. I had mine up to +11 or so..

[T0rin3]

Siven80 wrote...

Song of Courage: gains 3 attack (+ 10% of cunning modifier ) , 2 Damage(+5% cunning modifier), Crit chance 3% (+10% cunning modifier).

So remember a modifer is the stat -10.
So 70 cunning Song of Courage would give you 9 Attack, 5 Damage and 9% Crit.
40 Cunning would give you 6 Attack, 3.5 Damage and 6%Crit.

Its why i generally stop at 40 base cunning, more from items is a bonus and put the rest in Dex. the extra hit from Dex ( 0.5 per point) IMO is a better option.

Its an option. Its not min-max, but i prefer it tbh. More hits the better. I do the same on my Longbow archer too.

Dex will net you more attack than cunning will from SoC, but cunning also gives you damage from SoC/Exploit Weakness/Tainted Blade. If you backstab a lot, the added attack rating is not very important. But yeah, it's an option.

Much more important on an archer though who relies on attack rating for head on shots, instead of constantly getting a +20 attack flanking bonus.

[Silensfurtim]

One thing that bothers me about pure DEX build (22 CUN) is that it makes Exploit Weakness and Tainted Blade waste of talents. It also makes backstabbing pointless. I mean, why bother backstabbing if you can hit upfront all the time. However, with very high CUN plus the usage of Exploit Weakness and Tainted Blade, the damage you gain from it is something that just cant be ignored. The damage you get from it is massive. Thats how I got a 159 damage backstab. (w/ Mark of Death of course)

[puckthcat]

I did some spreadsheets generating dps numbers at different values of Dex/Cun on a DW Dagger rogue matched against different values of Defense/Armor. The results were pretty clear: Cunning is (obviously) better if you never miss, but as soon as Defense values rise high enough that accuracy is a factor, Dex overtakes Cunning rather rapidly. And this is true even if the target has high Armor as well as high Defense.

What this means is that even if a Cunning Rogue is only missing "a little bit" more than a Dex rogue, that little bit is probably enough to offset their higher damage per hit. This is particularly so because they will miss most often against the most dangerous and difficult enemies, where a miss is the most costly.

Given this, my current thinking is that the "correct" build would pump Dex exactly enough to hit everything you want to hit and put the balance into Cunning. Obviously, one would need to know the defense values of the enemy monsters to determine what this "correct" build is.

Modifié par puckthcat, 04 décembre 2009 - 04:48 .

[Silensfurtim]

how much attack rating is enough? with my CUN rogue + buffs from Rally, Stone Aura and SoC gives me 145 attack rating. is 145 enough?

[puckthcat]

By "correct" I really mean "damage-optimizing DW Dagger rogue." Don't want to overstate it.

[EvilDeity]

T0rin3 wrote...

Silensfurtim wrote...

T0rin3 wrote...

EvilDeity wrote...

Silensfurtim wrote...

if you balance a rogue with similar base stats like 40 DEX/ 40 CUN, the DEX stat will be higher later on because of the item stat bonuses. here is my CUN rogue.



i got +20 DEX bonus from items.

Which buffs did you have to achieve that hit rate? Rally and Heroic Offence whenever possible?

89 is pretty low for a backstabbing rogue, that's pretty on par with the average cunning rogue who backstabs a lot. Though most people do chain cast heroic offence on their rogue. I used rally and heroic offense and was sitting at around 91 or 92% at the end of the game.

how much attack rating does Heroic Offense give? damn ive never thought of chain casting that spell.

+10. But by chain casting, I mean over and over, one after each other. (with a tactic) It doesn't stack, you can just keep it up constantly.

Duration is 20 seconds and cooldown is 10 seconds, so you can keep it up constantly on two people.

I had tactics set to cast it on two people, but it casting when not in combat got annoying, so i set it to cast on those two when stamina <90%.

[EvilDeity]

As this sort of applies to this discussion I'll ask it here.

Does anybody know the stat bonuses Stone Aura provides and if they scale with level and/or attributes? I'm specifically interested in the attack bonus.

I highly doubt it's worth having a completely paralyzed Shale in your party for some buffs, but I'm interested nevertheless.

Modifié par EvilDeity, 04 décembre 2009 - 04:45 .

[Silensfurtim]

^upon testing just now, it gave me +10 Attack, +10 Defense and +3 Damage.

whats also good with stone aura, it gives attack, defense and movement penalties to enemies within its radius.

Modifié par Silensfurtim, 04 décembre 2009 - 05:00 .

[T0rin3]

I could personally never justify using Shale just to sit there and buff/debuff. I'd much rather have an activate participant in the fight.

[Silensfurtim]

yeah thats the sucky part with Stone Aura.

[Silensfurtim]

Attack/Def Buffs

Rally + Motivation - +10 Attack, +10 Defense
Stone Aura (whole line) - +10 Attack, +10 Defense
Dueling + Keen Defense - +10 Attack +10 Defense
Song of Courage (for a 70 CUN rogue) - +9 Attack
Heroic Offense - +10 Attack

did I miss anything?

Modifié par Silensfurtim, 04 décembre 2009 - 05:10 .

[T0rin3]

No, but that's probably overkill.

[EvilDeity]

I also just tested it (don't know why I didn't in the first place).

Level 21 Shale with all four Stone Aura talents provided my party with:

+10 Attack
+10 Defense
+4 Damage on main sword and shield tank but +3 on bow using Leliana
+5% Melee and ranged critical chance
+10 Spellpower
+3 Armour penetration
Health and stamina regeneration. Although the exact numbers elude me.

Shale receives:

+15 to armour
-50 to defense

I couldn't figure out how the bonus 'to resist hostile magic' worked either.

Those are some bloody nice bonuses, in conjunction with the enemy debuffs I'm very much considering giving Stone Aura Shale a chance.

Modifié par EvilDeity, 04 décembre 2009 - 05:17 .