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[Romeo Longsword]

Silensfurtim wrote...

I made a short video about the
difference between Dual Dagger DEX build and Dual Dagger CUN build,
Damage-wise, attack-wise, defense-wise.

Good vid mate, I have linked with the one and only Dragon Age vid of mine to yours, of my first time, ****** poor effort to fight Unbound, could tank him on melee as a Dex daggers x2 rogue a little bit though.

Arius777 wrote...

For a cun/cun rogue would the only benefit of going duelist be the 10 defense?
Other then that it seems that bard would be much better then duelist for increased damage. Is that true or does duelist offer some other advantages I'm missing?

You still get bonous to defense as a passive skill on top of the Dueling mode of +10 Defense.

Modifié par Romeo Longsword, 07 décembre 2009 - 04:00 .

[Silensfurtim]

Arius777 wrote...

For a cun/cun rogue would the only benefit of going duelist be the 10 defense?
Other then that it seems that bard would be much better then duelist for increased damage. Is that true or does duelist offer some other advantages I'm missing?

you only get +10 attack and +10 defense for Duelist. while with bard, you can take advantage of Song of Courage, which uses CUN.

Dueling gives +10 Attack and +10 Defense, if you have Keen Defense.

Modifié par Silensfurtim, 07 décembre 2009 - 04:08 .

[Matthew Young CT]

Arius777 wrote...

For a cun/cun rogue would the only benefit of going duelist be the 10 defense?
Other then that it seems that bard would be much better then duelist for increased damage. Is that true or does duelist offer some other advantages I'm missing?

Cun rogues have dodgy attack and dodgy defense. Duelist offers both. It is however a "selfish" spec. If you want to help out the party as well as yourself, Bard is better.

[Arius777]

Is the 10 defense worth the trade in damage? It seems that bard would be better in trying to maximize the effectiveness of a cun rogue.

[Matthew Young CT]

Well, you NEED to get attack from somewhere. If you get it from Wynne spamming Heroic Offense on you or something, then yeah, you can forgoe Duelist.

[Arius777]

Bard gives you as much attack at higher levels

[Matthew Young CT]

true. at 80+ cunning its better. i guess its down to defense vs dmg then

[Arius777]

So is the added defense really worth it?

[Matthew Young CT]

shrug who knows? 10% less damage vs a bit of damage. TBH neither of them are big deals

[Arius777]

is that what is amounts to? is each point of defense 1% less damage?



Also, think evasion is worth it?

[Matthew Young CT]

1) well its 1% less chance of getting hit, unless your defense is either so high or so low that you're getting hit 0% or 100%.
2) in terms of stats definitely, but it has that animation...which takes time...so probably not. especially considering with lots of defense + displacement from spellward and such you're unhittable anyway.

on defence i should clarify that its an overall check. the closer you are to 0% hit rate the more "effective" 1 defense becomes. IE if your defence is such that you get hit 20% of the time, adding 1 defence will drop that to 19%, so its effectively 5% improvement.

Modifié par Matthew Young CT, 07 décembre 2009 - 10:38 .

[Arius777]

hmm.. thanks for the info.



Is the animation a regular dodge animation or does evasion have a different one?

[Matthew Young CT]

dont remember tbh. it only activates half the time evasion contributes to displacement tho so i guess its not that bad. any animation = less dps tho

[Solwen_Polyhymnia]

Thanks for all the work on the analysis of dps Discobird and all other people that been contributing to this thread! I really consider this a must read thread for backstabbing rogue build.

[Aezeal]

('havn't read all pages)

My thorn of the dead god has WAY lower stats than the ones to OP posts (I got it right away in Lotharing) are there more of them?

[AKOdin]

You should, maybe, read all the pages or do a search.
The answer is already in this post.

Modifié par AKOdin, 08 décembre 2009 - 10:28 .

[Solwen_Polyhymnia]

Aezeal wrote...

('havn't read all pages)
My thorn of the dead god has WAY lower stats than the ones to OP posts (I got it right away in Lotharing) are there more of them?

As the codex for when you first get this item alluded to there iare 3 Thorn of Dead God as it was a sword that was broken into 3 pieces. However you can't reforge it even if you get all 3 (no clestial forge in this game...and the closes thing to a celestial smith off himself or you kill him.)   So the answer is you can get 3 Thorn of Dead God of varying potency.

[Discobird]

Just popping in to say that the 1.02 update shouldn't change any of these DPS calcs, since I was already assuming 50% str/50% dex daggers.

Also, I corrected a minor bug in my spreadsheet (I was using the wrong +crit damage cap for the offhand weapon). A few builds have a 1-2 points higher DPS with the fix. This does not affect the rankings. New chart is in the OP and below for convenience:

rheed wrote...

Little question, why do you prefer the Thorn as offhand instead of a Crown's dagger tier7 with 3 runeslots? +3 dmg makes up the loss of +15% increased critical damage? Actually as a rogue making all your strikes becoming critical strikes/backstabs ain't that hard if you micromanage him well enough

It turns out that +15% crit damage only increases your backstab damage by about 3.5 points for the two dagger/dagger builds. I judge this to be less valuable than +3 damage and +3 AP from a DPS perspective. Also note that the third offhand runeslot doesn't contribute to backstab damage. It could still be useful if you value defensive runes on your rogue though.

Modifié par Discobird, 08 décembre 2009 - 11:48 .

[Discobird]

Marbazoid wrote...

I'm a bit confused on the verdict on runes in the offhand weapon.

So runes do not "proc" in the off hand weapon if you are backstabbing.

Do flat + damage runes (elemental, silverite) fall under this restriction?
Or a another way to put it, which runes are "proc" runes?

Best way to put it is this: offhand runes will never trigger their on-hit effects when backstabbing, whether this on-hit effect is a status effect (stun, slow) or extra damage of any kind. Does that answer your question?

[Albino The Killer]

Thanks a lot for this amazing post Disco... and all the others who's posts have helped improve the understanding of the dps/rogue mechanics.

Keep on Backstabbing!

[De Bartman]

Amazing Post....

Is there summary anywhere in how to build your cun or dex rogue in terms of talents/skills/level advancement? i.e. how to build your rogue.

Cunning Rogue
lvl 1: Dual Weapon Sweep;Flurry (18dex ; 11 str ; 15 cun)
lvl 2: Below the Belt (+3 Dex)
lvl 3: Momentum (+ 3dex)
...
Dexterity Rogue
lvl 1: Dual Weapon Sweep; Deft Hands (18dex ; 11 str ; 15 cun)
lvl 2: Flurry (+3 Dex)
lvl 3: Momentum (+ 3dex)
...

Modifié par De Bartman, 09 décembre 2009 - 01:52 .

[MarcAntony]

I know I read this earlier in the thread, but I can't seem to find it. Do we take Dual-Weapon Mastery or not?



I keep wanting to take it because the damage bonuses are nice, but I’m aware of that bleed effect bug that occurs

[Discobird]

I wouldn't take DW Mastery unless you want to use dual full-sized weapons. DW Expert and DW Mastery give tiny benefits to the rest of the builds.

[Silensfurtim]

De Bartman wrote...

Amazing Post....

Is there summary anywhere in how to build your cun or dex rogue in terms of talents/skills/level advancement? i.e. how to build your rogue.

Cunning Rogue
lvl 1: Dual Weapon Sweep;Flurry (18dex ; 11 str ; 15 cun)
lvl 2: Below the Belt (+3 Dex)
lvl 3: Momentum (+ 3dex)
...
Dexterity Rogue
lvl 1: Dual Weapon Sweep; Deft Hands (18dex ; 11 str ; 15 cun)
lvl 2: Flurry (+3 Dex)
lvl 3: Momentum (+ 3dex)
...

try this

http://social.bioware.com/project/353/

[MarcAntony]

Oops - I meant DW Expert, not Mastery. But I believe you answered the question nonetheless.



No to DW Expert