612 réponses à ce sujet

[Ulyn]

Osz: the thing about % of damage is it'd vary a fair amount depending on companion choice, companion builds, and companion usage. Hypothetically speaking you could have a dedicated healer/buffer, a mage running almost exclusively crowd control, and a sword and board tank bee-lining defensive talents and taunting ability; a well-built DPS rogue would be through the roof.



Plus, I dunno about other people, but sometimes I just pwn a few isolated/straggler mobs without even bringing up the non-rogue party members, to remember the good old days of overpowered rogues in WoW. Ah, 2005.

[tetracycloide]

I've been running the numbers on dagger/dagger cunning comparing the tier 7 crow dagger to the thorn of the dead gods and for a target with 0 armor and it's beating it by about 3 or 4 DPS. Why is it not mentioned in the notable offhand alternatives?  Am I doing the math wrong?

Modifié par tetracycloide, 11 décembre 2009 - 09:55 .

[Discobird]

ELOE1985 wrote...

Understandable. From what I've read thus far on these forums, +% backstab caps at +50%, and since I was using Rose Thorn and Red Jenny Seekers already totals to +45%, making Oath's +10% become only +5%. With that in mind, would it still be better DPS than +Attributes rings like Dusk Ring or Harvest Festival?

Actually the +% backstab mod caps at +200%, not +50%. The 50% figure comes from an earlier version of the OP which was later corrected (sorry for the error).

If you have Oath, I would wear it instead of the lesser +attrib ring (i.e. NOT Key to the City) on every build.

Modifié par Discobird, 11 décembre 2009 - 10:50 .

[Discobird]

tetracycloide wrote...

I've been running the numbers on dagger/dagger cunning comparing the tier 7 crow dagger to the thorn of the dead gods and for a target with 0 armor and it's beating it by about 3 or 4 DPS. Why is it not mentioned in the notable offhand alternatives?  Am I doing the math wrong?

Let "backstab input" be the amount of damage to be multiplied by the backstab multiplier (i.e. the weapon's base damage + attribute bonus damage). For the existing dagger/dagger cunning build with TotDG offhand, the backstab input is about 24 for both mainhand and offhand attacks. On the same page so far?


If you replace TotDG with a T7 Crow Dagger, you lose the +3 damage bonus from TotDG, gain 3.6 damage from the +15% crit damage mod, and gain about 0.5 damage from the increase in tier. 3.6 + 0.5 - 3 = 1.1. So Crow offhand rogue does about 1 more DPS against 0 armor targets and less DPS against heavy armored targets.

Are you remembering to add TotDG's bonus damage to both mainhand and offhand attacks?

Modifié par Discobird, 11 décembre 2009 - 10:52 .

[tetracycloide]

I'm following all of that but I also added an extra rune slot due to the tier increase netting a 2 damage boost to, assuming i'm reading the op correctly, both hands as well as the 1.1 increase from tier and crit mods.

In a somewhat related side note what's the armor range for NPCs?  0 to 40 or 50ish?  less? more?  How much armor to, say, the high dragon, flemeth, and the archdemon have, for example?

Modifié par tetracycloide, 12 décembre 2009 - 12:56 .

[tetracycloide]

In a completely unrelated note: If offhand rune damage adds to mainhand and offhand attacks and backstabs alternate between both hands why do the +#s corisponding to runes that appear when attacking from the front not appear when backstabbing when said runes are applied to only the off hand?



Take this scenario:

Main hand has 3 paralysis runes

Off hand has fire, cold, and cold iron runes



If an undead is attacked from the rear one number will appear, in white, no matter how many times they are attacked

If attacked from the front one number will appear, in white, followed by another set of 4 numbers, one in white, one in orange with a +, one in blue with a +, and one in white with a +.



If the weapons are switched the same behavior is observed when attacking from the front but when attacking from the rear, with the backstab animation, the bonus damage will appear but only on alternate attacks.



Based on the display behavior in game it appears as if main hand runes apply only to main hand attacks when backstabbing and that off hand runes never apply. Is this merely a display bug and if so what accounts for the display bug showing main hand runes on alternate attacks but not off hand runes on both?

[Pennoyer]

Disco, I know you've probably already thought of everything, but what about a Dex/Cunning hybrid build. Could there possibly be a sweet spot with dex/cunning where your attack and armor pen would both be at such a level that your dps could get above a pure Dex or a pure Cunning build? I am only talking about daggers with lethality.

[Albino The Killer]

Hi everyone, Thanks again for the great posts... Does anyone knows how to get the Oath manually?

Thanks a lot in advance.

[Silensfurtim]

Albino The Killer wrote...

Hi everyone, Thanks again for the great posts... Does anyone knows how to get the Oath manually?

Thanks a lot in advance.

http://dragonage.wik...adable_Contents

Modifié par Silensfurtim, 12 décembre 2009 - 05:27 .

[plecha]

tetracycloide wrote...

In a somewhat related side note what's the armor range for NPCs?  0 to 40 or 50ish?  less? more?  How much armor to, say, the high dragon, flemeth, and the archdemon have, for example?

Noone knows any hard numbers i think. Honestly i can't even begin to guess there ... too many factors play into damage done against bosses, like armor-pen buffs or debuffs and so forth. Personally i just try to get my ap up as much as possible

[plecha]

tetracycloide wrote...

In a completely unrelated note: If offhand rune damage adds to mainhand and offhand attacks and backstabs alternate between both hands why do the +#s corisponding to runes that appear when attacking from the front not appear when backstabbing when said runes are applied to only the off hand?

Take this scenario:
Main hand has 3 paralysis runes
Off hand has fire, cold, and cold iron runes

If an undead is attacked from the rear one number will appear, in white, no matter how many times they are attacked
If attacked from the front one number will appear, in white, followed by another set of 4 numbers, one in white, one in orange with a +, one in blue with a +, and one in white with a +.

If the weapons are switched the same behavior is observed when attacking from the front but when attacking from the rear, with the backstab animation, the bonus damage will appear but only on alternate attacks.

Based on the display behavior in game it appears as if main hand runes apply only to main hand attacks when backstabbing and that off hand runes never apply. Is this merely a display bug and if so what accounts for the display bug showing main hand runes on alternate attacks but not off hand runes on both?

As i understand it: When backstabbing the attacks alternate between main- and offhand, using their respective base damage as input. But: on-hit runes are only taken into account from the mainhand weapon - On an offhand backstab the effects of the mainhand runes get sort of 'copied over' to your offhand. That is why it is suggested to place on-hit runes in your mainhand and passive runes in your offhand.

That is consistent with your first example, you don't have damage runes in your mainhand, therefore no coloured numbers when backstabbing (since the elemental runes are in your offhand and get 'overwritten' by the paralyze runes). On frontal attacks the hits properly alternate.

Now i don't know why you see elemental damage only on alternate attacks when swapping the weapons. I've never paid attention that much ... maybe it's a display thing or so. :/

Modifié par plecha, 12 décembre 2009 - 04:27 .

[Albino The Killer]

Silensfurtim wrote...

Albino The Killer wrote...

Hi everyone, Thanks again for the great posts... Does anyone knows how to get the Oath manually?

Thanks a lot in advance.

http://dragonage.wik...adable_Contents

Merci!

[Wertilq]

I didn't see any comments about cunning giving to armour penetration, was that included in the calculations?

How high is the armour penetration it gives anyways?

[Silensfurtim]

Discobird, I just want to ask you about the viability of a CUN DD Rogue with high Melee Critical Chance build. I know somebody who has a CUN D/D Rogue with almost 60% Melee Critical Chance. Would it gain more DPS compared to a CUN DD Rogue whos a pure backstabber?

[Discobird]

tetracycloide wrote...

In a completely unrelated note: If offhand rune damage adds to mainhand and offhand attacks and backstabs alternate between both hands why do the +#s corisponding to runes that appear when attacking from the front not appear when backstabbing when said runes are applied to only the off hand?


Take this scenario:

Main hand has 3 paralysis runes

Off hand has fire, cold, and cold iron runes



If an undead is attacked from the rear one number will appear, in white, no matter how many times they are attacked

If attacked from the front one number will appear, in white, followed by another set of 4 numbers, one in white, one in orange with a +, one in blue with a +, and one in white with a +.



If the weapons are switched the same behavior is observed when attacking from the front but when attacking from the rear, with the backstab animation, the bonus damage will appear but only on alternate attacks.



Based on the display behavior in game it appears as if main hand runes apply only to main hand attacks when backstabbing and that off hand runes never apply. Is this merely a display bug and if so what accounts for the display bug showing main hand runes on alternate attacks but not off hand runes on both?

Hmm, thanks for looking into this. My experience is different:

OP section 1B wrote:

Whether backstabbing or attacking from the front, you will alternate hands every T seconds. Don't believe the backstab animation, which looks like it's attacking with the mainhand only. Also, when backstabbing, it appears that the mainhand runes trigger (or have a chance to trigger) on every attack, even when the offhand should be attacking. Offhand runes never trigger. I can only assume this is a bug.

As Plecha said, this is consistent with your first set of examples (no elemental damage on backstabs if mainhand lacks the runes) but not your second (elemental damage on every other attack if mainhand has the runes). In my experience, mainhand elemental runes will trigger on every backstab, not just every other one.

I've noticed that the interface will only display so many floaties at a time. Have you tried minimizing the floaty rate to make sure the elemental damage floaties aren't getting hidden? Disable speed buffs, make sure no one else is attacking at the same time, engage one target at a time, pause after attacks to let the floaties scroll by completely. When I do this I see elemental damage from the mainhand on every backstab.

[Discobird]

Wertilq wrote...

I didn't see any comments about cunning giving to armour penetration, was that included in the calculations?
How high is the armour penetration it gives anyways?

Cunning provides 1/7 AP for every point over 10, and this is already included in the calculations

[Discobird]

Silensfurtim wrote...

Discobird, I just want to ask you about the viability of a CUN DD Rogue with high Melee Critical Chance build. I know somebody who has a CUN D/D Rogue with almost 60% Melee Critical Chance. Would it gain more DPS compared to a CUN DD Rogue whos a pure backstabber?

High crit chance would help with situations where you can't backstab.  But I don't see how it would outperform the pure backstabbing rogue seeing as backstabbing is functionally equivalent to 100% crit chance + Exploit Weakness damage (and an opportunity for Feast of the Fallen to return stamina).  Am I missing something obvious?  BTW, take note that you can't "double crit" by rolling a natural crit on a backstab.  You only get your damage multiplied once.

Modifié par Discobird, 14 décembre 2009 - 04:11 .

[Discobird]

Pennoyer wrote...

Disco, I know you've probably already thought of everything, but what about a Dex/Cunning hybrid build. Could there possibly be a sweet spot with dex/cunning where your attack and armor pen would both be at such a level that your dps could get above a pure Dex or a pure Cunning build? I am only talking about daggers with lethality.

Yeah that's mathematically possible, but the sweet spot can't be calculated without knowing enemy defense ratings and your ultimate attack rating including party buffs.  Several people in this thread have tried a mixed dex/cunning build and found it to work just fine IIRC.

[tetracycloide]

Melee critical chance is a fairly useless stat for a rogue because backstabs are automatic when flanking, flanking is always better than not flaking, and with a tank or stuns flanking is not difficult. Critical chance does increase DPS from the front of a target, which is an overall damage gain since sometimes a target must be faced head on, but should never be taken at the expense of backstab DPS. High melee critical chance builds are for dual wielding warriors who cannot backstab.

[torath77]

Step 1: for each weapon you're wielding, start with 1.5s and substract that weapon's speed modifier (see [[http://dragonage.gul...p/items/weapons
for the modifiers). Thus for daggers this value will be 1.0s and for
axes it will be 1.4s. The 1.5s starting point comes from the base
attack interval for the dual-wield style, as defined in core_h.nss, and
verified by my in-game testing.

Question: How does momentum work? You say it influences all builds the same - but why?
If the weapon styles have a different speed ratings, momentum should help the slower attack styles more.

Edit: I deleted the stuff  I didn't understand, but after rereading your posts its clear to me.

Modifié par torath77, 14 décembre 2009 - 03:57 .

[SumB]

Not trying to min/max but just looking for best possible path to take for the last 7 levels.

I was trying to do a STR build but royally screwed it up and bought the wrong stuff. Currently my stats with gear are as follows:

STR 37
DEX 52
CUN 31

I have Felon's coat as my chest armor along with Helm of Honnleath for head. The rest isn't much to talk about. Right now I'm DW Aodh + crappy dagger.

I have 131G save up which I *was* goign to buy Veshialle with, but now with a pseudo DEX build...maybe it might be better for me to go with Rose's Thorn dagger?? Need some advice please on which way to go with gear and with stats. I'm just about to hit level 16. 

I'm an assassin/duelist, no stealth, wasted a lot of talents in DW tree (I have full 1st and 3rd tier in DW, along with two in 2nd tier I think).

Should I pump the rest into STR and get Veshialle. Should I pump CUN and get Rose's Thorn and a Dead Thaig dagger??

I'm on PS3 version fo the game if that matters.

P.S. I might be willing to go back to last leveling save and remove 3 pts from STR and put them somewhere else. 

Thanks.

Modifié par SumB, 14 décembre 2009 - 04:16 .

[Timortis]

Does Lethality do anything for resistance checks on attacks like Cripple?

[Silensfurtim]

forget the daggers with that build. go for axe/sword.

[plecha]

SumB wrote...

Not trying to min/max but just looking for best possible path to take for the last 7 levels.

I was trying to do a STR build but royally screwed it up and bought the wrong stuff. Currently my stats with gear are as follows:

STR 37
DEX 52
CUN 31

I have Felon's coat as my chest armor along with Helm of Honnleath for head. The rest isn't much to talk about. Right now I'm DW Aodh + crappy dagger.

I have 131G save up which I *was* goign to by Veshialle with, but now with a pseudo DEX build...maybe it might be better for me to go with Rose's Thorn dagger?? Need some advice please on which way to go with gear and with stats. I'm just about to hit level 16. 

I'm an assassin/duelist, no stealth, wasted a lot of talents in DW tree (I have full 1st and 3rd tier in DW, along with two in 2nd tier I think).

Should I pump the rest into STR and get Veshialle. Should I pump CUN and get Rose's Thorn and a T7 crow dagger?)

I'm on PS3 version fo the game if that matters.

Thanks.

Personally i would continue to build Str, since you're already 2 levels worth ahead of Cun. Since you also appear to have DW Mastery, you could then also go for 2 large weapons.

As for equip, this is copied over from the first page for the Axe/Longsword Str build:

* Mainhand: Veshialle (9.6 base damage, 4.2 AP, +2 str, +10% crit damage, +2 nature damage)
* Offhand: Starfang (11.9 base damage, 4.2 AP, +3 damage, +2.5 AP)
* Helm: Helm of Honnleath (+2 str, +2 dex +2 cun)
* Chest: Warden Commander armor (+15% crit damage
* Gloves: Red Jenny Seekers (+15% crit. damage)
* Boots: nothing improves DPS
* Belt: Andruil's Blessing (+2 str, +2 dex, +2 cun)
* Amulet: Heart of Witherfang (+1 str)
* Ring: Key to the City (+2 str, +2 dex, +2 cun)
* Ring: Dawn Ring (+4 str, -1 cun)

[edit] i don't know but since your dex rating isn't to be neglected you could maybe also go the route of Dagger/Dagger Dex: (you could keep the Felon's Coat this way)

* Mainhand: Rose's Thorn (6.4 base damage, 8 AP, +2 dex, +3 damage, +30% crit damage)
* Offhand: Thorn of the Dead Gods (6 dam, 7 AP, +3 damage, +3 AP)
* Helm: Helm of Honnleath (+2 str, +2 dex, +2 cun)
* Chest: Felon's Coat (+6 dex, +9 defense)
* Gloves: Red Jenny Seekers (+15% crit damage)
* Boots: Cadash Stompers or Silverhammer's Tackmasters (+2 dex) (Cadash has extra mods of minor benefit but also increases hostility)
* Belt: Andruil's Blessing (+2 str, +2 dex, +2 cun)
* Amulet: Heart of Witherfang (+1 str)
* Ring: Key to the City (+2 str, +2 dex, +2 cun)
* Ring: Harvest Festival Ring (+2 str, +2 dex, +4 attack)

My first Char also had decent Dex and i think it's nice to have a good defense rating, so (for me) that's not too bad...

Modifié par plecha, 15 décembre 2009 - 02:10 .

[plecha]

torath77 wrote...

Question: How does momentum work? You say it influences all builds the same - but why?
If the weapon styles have a different speed ratings, momentum should help the slower attack styles more.

Edit: I deleted the stuff  I didn't understand, but after rereading your posts its clear to me.

Haste and Momentum reduce T by 25% and 30%, respectively, at the END of the attack timing calculation. Thus I ignore them for purposes of the DPS calculations, since they'll affect all builds by the same proportion.

The key is "at the end of attack timing calculation", so it will affect all weapons the same way - by reducing the attack time by 30 %.