612 réponses à ce sujet

[Ovu]

Are these calculations before or after the hotfix?

[DragoonKain3]

Upset Balance? It's all about Pinpoint Striking! Not caring about where you stab for 15 seconds is just too good, especially when your crit multiplier is 2x.



As for Captivating Song, it sucks, at least on Nightmare. I REGRET spending 3 points to get it (my Leliana is pretty much uses Song of Valor since I use 2 mages), since while not a lot can resist it with high CUN, the stun is MUCH too short AND stuns run on diminishing returns as well. And for a DPS rogue to sacrfice his DPS on top of it... >_>





BTW, just wondering, exactly how much does Song of Valor increase your stam regen by, and how much does Momentum drain? Because if both evens out at high CUN, then I can see you just have SoV on so you can Momentum ad infinitum.

[Sevitan7]

Fair enough, I don't really feel stealing is a worthwhile source of income, and all builds can do well anyway. Waiting to be level 17-18 before you can open every chest is quite a bit too long for my liking as well.



I can't comment on traps as I have never used them. And between coercion, stealing, poison and combat training it's kind of hard to max them as well. The main reason why I never picked them up since I don't want to pay for all the recipes, some of which seem kind of expensive, and I've gone through the game twice now on nightmare without ever using traps, so I'm ok without using them. It is something I did not consider though and they do seem fun, will need to try it out in the future.



Thanks for the input on Song of Courage, seems like a worthwhile investment I suppose, but it does stretch talents even more and takes awhile to get rolling compared to duelist.

[Sevitan7]

Opps double post.

Modifié par Sevitan7, 18 novembre 2009 - 06:55 .

[Discobird]

Ovu wrote...

Are these calculations before or after the hotfix?

After the hotfix.  I haven't done the calculations but I imagine the dagger/dagger cunning build would wipe the floor with the rest pre-hotfix.

[EDIT] Yeah, I just ran the numbers and the dagger/dagger cunning build does 130 DPS pre-hotfix.  30% more than the next highest build 

Modifié par Discobird, 18 novembre 2009 - 07:00 .

[GlobularFoody]

You better max out your "DPS" or your raid leader will kick you out and you will be laughed out of world of..err...

[Discobird]

BTW, just wondering, exactly how much does Song of Valor increase your stam regen by, and how much does Momentum drain? Because if both evens out at high CUN, then I can see you just have SoV on so you can Momentum ad infinitum.

Song of Valor increases your stamina regen by 0.5 + 0.01 * (cun-10).  Your normal combat stamina regeneration is 1.0, and Momentum reduces this by 2.  So if you have nothing else giving you stamina regen or degen, Song of Valor should let you run Momentum forever at 60 cunning.

[EDIT] Note that Warden Commander + Song of Valor will let you run Momentum forever at any cunning.  Felon's Coat will let you run Momentum forever all by itself.

Modifié par Discobird, 18 novembre 2009 - 07:16 .

[Wolff Laarcen]

Discobird wrote...
Song of Valor increases your stamina regen by 0.5 + 0.01 * (cun-10).  Your normal combat stamina regeneration is 1.0, and Momentum reduces this by 2.  So if you have nothing else giving you stamina regen or degen, Song of Valor should let you run Momentum forever at 60 cunning.

cool, i was wondering about this.

[Wissenschaft]

DW mastery is more for warriors who can not backstab and so their damage is based solo on their weapons. Not to mention Duel Striking is definity for warriors since it prevents backstabing.

[Ovu]

Thanks Disco, I made a Strength based rogue with Dual Weapons Mastery based on your recommendations last week, but since I'm unfortunately playing the Xbox 360 version I think I'll reroll.

[iwantsleep]

Discobird wrote...

Disco- Pretty sure there are 4 Dex essences in the Fade. Just a small change.

I'm starting to wonder if the Fade bonuses are randomized or something since everyone comes up with slightly different answers.  In the old thread there were several people saying they only found 3 (including me).  If a lot of people here say they found 4 I'll go ahead and make that fix.  Thanks.

Thanks for posting this thread. I was in the process of reading it this morning, when the forums were shut down.

In the Fade, I found:

Strength - 4
Dexterity - 4
Willpower - 4
Magic - 2
Cunning - 5
Constitution - 2

Maybe some people missed getting the 4th Dexterity. You can find them all using this guide (There are spoilers because it is a walkthrough):

http://wikicheats.ga...360/Walkthrough

[tranj84cl]

I found the same Fade bonuses as Iwantsleep on both play-throughs that I did.



There are many different ways to utilize rogues when they dual-wield. Two major types to consider are to maximize crits or maximize backstabs. I didn't go for Pinpoint Strike or DW Expert since I figured I'd backstab the whole time.



Max crits, however, is useful if you roll mages with CoC, as I believe backstabs don't shatter. Ugh, all this talk about max/min. I do it for the math

[DragoonKain3]

Hmm... dagger builds rely on Andruil's Blessing to momentum infinitely. Axe builds can use that, though they're better off rushing to collect gold for Veshiale, since that also does the trick.



In any case, Song of Valor is out for CUN heavy builds. Still up in arms though between not caring where I strike for 15 seconds, or 10m wide boost to party damage/attack. I'm leaning towards to former though, since I'm not going to have 3 melee in party, and I imagine there will be times when you don't have the luxury of positioning yourself, or the situation calls for burst in order to reduce enemy count or remove a particularly dangerous enemy ASAP.





As for fade bonuses, it's weird, but I'm pretty sure I got 6 CUN instead of 5 (with DEX 3 instead of 4). My mage is max magic elf, and I'm pretty sure I did not put a point in CUN since I was despately hoping for 6 CUN to get lvl 4 coercion and I got it. Odd... or my memory might be failing me.

[daem3an]

I really need to think about this some more. First of all, I think I was putting far too much weight behind this quote: "...daggers don't really cut it in mid-endgame due to their limited attribute modifier potential..." But if I'm reading this thread right, 2 daggers out-damage two full-sized weapons even with dual weapon Mastery.

To be fair, he also said "'dps' is not one of the major variables we use when designing the combat system." Not a huge deal, obviously it's never too late to start dual wielding daggers.

The other thing is understanding Punisher vs. Momentum.

1. The Punisher tree requires 28 DEX, while Momentum only requires 24, freeing up more points for CUN or STR.
2. Punisher also requires one more talent point.
3. Punisher does 3x normal damage, plus crit on the third hit, plus penalties or knockdown. How does that compare to Momentum, which does 2x normal damage over a sustained period (and I'm assuming no chance for crit, knockdown or penalties to ATT & DEF?).
4. Punisher has steep cost and cooldown, while Momentum's upkeep is totally offset by Song of Valor.

Did I get all that right, or am I missing something? Is there a way to minimize the cooldown time to make Punisher more attractive?

Modifié par daem3an, 18 novembre 2009 - 02:13 .

[Aldriann]

What would be the most effective build for a dagger/dagger dex rogue? Since after getting momentum it's pretty much right clicking on backstabs. Also, is it posible to list the places which you get the optimum armor from, some of those I do no recognize, particularly Andruil's Blessing. Thanks.

Edit : What are the most optimal runes for the offhand dagger is it elemental damages like in the mainhand or is it the +10% damage vs undead / dark spawn?

Modifié par Aldriann, 18 novembre 2009 - 08:30 .

[Sharog]

After some testing with a Tri melee party, the dagger/dagger cunning build seems to put out about 80% of a dw zerker+reaver war, although the war is my main and im just putting it on script since zevran needs to guided to perform properly. i imagine if i used a rogue as main the dmg would be even.



How ever i got a different set of question: about the party buffs, i found out that Haste does not stack with momentum, infact it overrides it, and we all know that haste gives less attack speed. rally does not increase Att without motivate,



Also, since rogue can be archers, Haste does not stack with rapidaim, in fact nothing stacks with rapid aim. and for some reason activating haste while having rapid aim from a bow/helm will result in a significant reduce in att speed.

[VxChemical]

I find the discussions in this topic useless and time waisting, i shouldnt care but reducing a game like DA:O to numbers is saddening, its not about the numbers but about the characters, go back to Warcraft!

[Sharog]

nobody tell u to look at it, ppl enjoying playing the game in their own ways, did i tell u what to do? no, then stop beeing a judgmental b****** and think everyone should play the game ur way.

[DragoonKain3]

1) Momentum only needs 24 DEX, not 30



2) Momentum increases your normal DPS by 43%, not double



3) Momentum's drain can be offset totally by one piece of equipment, something you'd wear on your DPS rogue anyway (andruil's blessing, axe wielders can just use Veshiale instead)



4) Punisher takes at least 1 second to cast, then it follows a series of animations that take time as well. I dunno exact numbers, but rough guessing (I don't have leet skills of Discobird unfortunately), its at least another second to complete the animation. Thus it doing 3x normal weapon hit + 1x auto-crit = 5x damage over 2 seconds, which is 2.5x dps. Compare this to momentum, which is 1.43x dps if it does not backstab/crit.



5) Momentum works with backstabs, Punisher does not. As such, properly positioned (or pinpoint striking), Momentum does 2.86x dps. And you can sustain Momentum forever, while you can't do anything about Punisher's cooldown.





Of course, nothing is stopping you from getting both, you just have to sacrifice talent points here and there.







@VxChemical

Personally, I NEED this numbers to shove into those people who can't seem to stop whining about mages being OP'ed. Lets see if any kind of mage can do this amount of single target DPS... :roll:

[daem3an]

DragoonKain3 wrote...
"lots of good info"

Thanks for the answers guys. This helps clear it up for me (and thanks for correcting me on the Dex for Momentum, that's what I get for trying to think at 3am).

I'll stick with my current build. Somehow I already have 12 talents at level 9, so I can still get everything I want. I'm not necessarily interested in making the best possible character, I just like to understand how the system works so I know what I'm getting myself into - it's a huge part of what makes this game so much fun. Next project: Arcane Warrior.

[Hurkaleez]

I see people swearing by a dual-longsword str/dex build, you happen to crunch the numbers on those?

[Discobird]

iwantsleep wrote...

[Maybe some people missed getting the 4th Dexterity. You can find them all using this guide (There are spoilers because it is a walkthrough):

http://wikicheats.ga...360/Walkthrough

Thanks for the link.  It looks pretty persuasive so I went ahead and edited my OPs.  The change doesn't really make much of a difference--after rounding, it comes out to +1 dagger/dagger dex DPS as compared to my earlier chart.

http://i46.tinypic.com/or6t0o.jpg

[Discobird]

Corgun wrote...

I see people swearing by a dual-longsword str/dex build, you happen to crunch the numbers on those?

Sure I can run the numbers on that. Turns out it does about as much DPS as the dagger/dagger dex build.

LONGSWORD/LONGSWORD STR

Pre-gear stat allocations are the same as the axe/dagger str build

* Mainhand: Starfang (11.9 base damage, 4.2 AP, +3 str, +3 damage, +2.5 AP)
* Offhand: Keening Blade (+4 AP, +3 cold damage)
* Helm: Helm of Honnleath (+2 str, +2 cun)
* Chest: Warden Commander's Armor (+15% crit damage)
* Gloves: Red Jenny Seekers (+15% crit damage)
* Boots: nothing improves DPS
* Belt: Andruil's Blessing (+2 str, +2 cun)
* Amulet: Heart of Witherfang (+1 str)
* Ring: Key to the City (+2 str, +2 cun)
* Ring: Dawn Ring (+4 str, -1 cun)

Final stats including gear:
Str: 74 + 14 = 88
Cun: 22 +5 = 27

DPS: 80 (0 armor) / 80 (10 armor) / 68 (30 armor)

This is assuming Keening Blade's bonus cold damage applies to the mainhand attack. Without that assumption it's a couple points less DPS.

[Discobird]

Aldriann wrote...

What would be the most effective build for a dagger/dagger dex rogue? Since after getting momentum it's pretty much right clicking on backstabs.

The stat and gear allocations are in my OPs. As for talents, every DW rogue will want the following IMO:
* Momentum
* Master stealth
* Combat movement
* Tainted Blade (Warden's Keep DLC only)
* Exploit weakness (Assassin)
* Dueling and Upset balance, some say Pinpoint Striking is worth it too (Duelist). If you're a cunning rogue you may alternatively consider going Bard for your second spec and getting Song of Courage.
* DW finesse (not as important as the others, it's just +5 attack)

And of course, the cunning rogues will need Lethality too.

Also, is it posible to list the places which you get the optimum armor from, some of those I do no recognize, particularly Andruil's Blessing. Thanks.

Andruil's Blessing is sold by the mage tower quartermaster, costs 106 gold IIRC. Gamebanshee has a nice searchable equipment database with locations: http://www.gamebansh...chequipment.php

Edit : What are the most optimal runes for the offhand dagger is it elemental damages like in the mainhand or is it the +10% damage vs undead / dark spawn?

Your offhand runes will not trigger on your backstabs as far as I can tell, since the backstab attacks with the mainhand only. So you might as well put defensive runes in your offhand (Hale/Dweomer).

Modifié par Discobird, 18 novembre 2009 - 05:14 .

[Aldriann]

Thank you. So all in all, dagger / dagger cunning is for maximum backstabs while dagger / dagger dex is more of a survivability build. Would it be possible to make a hybrid dagger / dagger dex / cunning build? For a little more survivability, but more DPS than pure dex.

Modifié par Aldriann, 18 novembre 2009 - 06:18 .