612 réponses à ce sujet

[SumB]

plecha wrote...

[edit] i don't know but since your dex rating isn't to be neglected you could maybe also go the route of Dagger/Dagger Dex: (you could keep the Felon's Coat this way)

* Mainhand: Rose's Thorn (6.4 base damage, 8 AP, +2 dex, +3 damage, +30% crit damage)
* Offhand: Thorn of the Dead Gods (6 dam, 7 AP, +3 damage, +3 AP)
* Helm: Helm of Honnleath (+2 str, +2 dex, +2 cun)
* Chest: Felon's Coat (+6 dex, +9 defense)
* Gloves: Red Jenny Seekers (+15% crit damage)
* Boots: Cadash Stompers or Silverhammer's Tackmasters (+2 dex) (Cadash has extra mods of minor benefit but also increases hostility)
* Belt: Andruil's Blessing (+2 str, +2 dex, +2 cun)
* Amulet: Heart of Witherfang (+1 str)
* Ring: Key to the City (+2 str, +2 dex, +2 cun)
* Ring: Harvest Festival Ring (+2 str, +2 dex, +4 attack)

My first Char also hat decent Dex and i think it's nice to have a good defense rating, so (for me) that's not too bad...

AFAIK the PS3 version stil has the DEX bug with daggers...so I'm a little worried about going daggers. Of course with my luck they'll probably patch it the second I buy Veshialle.

But....I would be willing to go back one level (maybe) and remove 3 pts from STR and redistribute them if needed, which would also allow me to change my choice with the Dalish Elves and WhitherFang...and kill it for the amulet?
Or....If I got Dead Thaig then that would be 8 more into CUN. Hmmm...or just pump up DEX and get ToDG dagger?

I guess really any of my 3 options are "viable"....and getting Veshialle would get me around the DEX bug so I'll probably go with that. I'll keep Felon's Coat probably and just go with medium hitting , high defense rogue?

Bah...cant make up my mind!

[Discobird]

Timortis wrote...

Does Lethality do anything for resistance checks on attacks like Cripple?

Lethality has no effect on resistance checks as far as I can tell from the code.  In particular, it doesn't let you substitute cunning for strength in resistance checks (which I think was the gist of your question). 

[cbenioff]

Maybe I missed it but why is a dagger in the off-hand always better than a full-size weapon?  Would the same be true for a DW Warrior?

[Timortis]

Discobird wrote...

Timortis wrote...

Does Lethality do anything for resistance checks on attacks like Cripple?

Lethality has no effect on resistance checks as far as I can tell from the code.  In particular, it doesn't let you substitute cunning for strength in resistance checks (which I think was the gist of your question). 

Yes, I believe this gives Strength builds an advantage beyond DPS, in that they can stun, knockdown and debuff enemies much more consistently.

Modifié par Timortis, 15 décembre 2009 - 07:35 .

[Haplose]

Stun is probably the most useful status effect for Rogues. And I hardly ever see Dirty Fighting fail (also against me, at 100% physical resist).



I wonder what is checked against what in DF?

[Discobird]

Rogue talents that use a strength resistance check:

* Cripple
* Punisher

Rogue talents that use a cunning resistance check:

* Distraction
* Upset balance
* Below the Belt
* Riposte
* Captivating Song

Plus traps. I'd say the cunning rogue is the one that can debuff more consistently. Also note that all the cunning rogues have higer cunning than the strength rogues have str.

Dirty Fighting doesn't have a resistance check.

Modifié par Discobird, 15 décembre 2009 - 08:45 .

[Timortis]

Riposte uses cunning? Interesting. Are you sure?

[Discobird]

Yeah it surprised me too. Here's the code:

case ABILITY_TALENT_DUAL_WEAPON_RIPOSTE:
{
#ifdef DEBUG
LogTrace(LOG_CHANNEL_COMBAT_ABILITY, "Riposte hit " + ToString(stEvent.nHit));
#endif
if (stEvent.nHit == 1)
{
// off hand attack
object oWeapon = GetItemInEquipSlot(INVENTORY_SLOT_OFFHAND, stEvent.oCaster);

// if the attack hits
int nResult = Combat_GetAttackResult(stEvent.oCaster, stEvent.oTarget, oWeapon, 0.0f, stEvent.nAbility);
if (IsCombatHit(nResult) == TRUE)
{
// normal damage
float fDamage = Combat_Damage_GetAttackDamage(stEvent.oCaster, stEvent.oTarget, oWeapon, nResult, 0.0);
eEffect = EffectImpact(fDamage, oWeapon,0,stEvent.nAbility);
Combat_HandleAttackImpact(stEvent.oCaster, stEvent.oTarget, nResult, eEffect);

// physical resistance
if (ResistanceCheck(stEvent.oCaster, stEvent.oTarget, PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_INTELLIGENCE, RESISTANCE_PHYSICAL) == FALSE)
{
float fDuration = GetRankAdjustedEffectDuration(stEvent.oTarget, RIPOSTE_STUN_DURATION);

// remove stacking effects
RemoveStackingEffects(stEvent.oTarget, stEvent.oCaster, stEvent.nAbility);

// stun
eEffect = EffectStun();
ApplyEffectOnObject(EFFECT_DURATION_TYPE_TEMPORARY, eEffect, stEvent.oTarget, fDuration, stEvent.oCaster, stEvent.nAbility);
}
}
} else if (stEvent.nHit == 2)
{
// main hand attack
object oWeapon = GetItemInEquipSlot(INVENTORY_SLOT_MAIN, stEvent.oCaster);

// if the attack hits
int nResult = Combat_GetAttackResult(stEvent.oCaster, stEvent.oTarget, oWeapon, 0.0f, stEvent.nAbility);
if (IsCombatHit(nResult) == TRUE)
{
if (nResult == COMBAT_RESULT_HIT)
{
effect[] eRiposteEffects = GetEffectsByAbilityId(stEvent.oTarget, stEvent.nAbility);
if (GetArraySize(eRiposteEffects) > 0)
{
nResult = COMBAT_RESULT_CRITICALHIT;
}
}

// normal damage
float fDamage = Combat_Damage_GetAttackDamage(stEvent.oCaster, stEvent.oTarget, oWeapon, nResult, 0.0);
eEffect = EffectImpact(fDamage, oWeapon,0,stEvent.nAbility);
Combat_HandleAttackImpact(stEvent.oCaster, stEvent.oTarget, nResult, eEffect);
}
}`

break;
}

Modifié par Discobird, 15 décembre 2009 - 08:49 .

[Timortis]

What happens when you use the same stats as the CUN Dagger/Dagger build, but use Biteback in the main hand and Rose's in the off-hand? Biteback has no STR requirement.

[torath77]

cbenioff wrote...

Maybe I missed it but why is a dagger in the off-hand always better than a full-size weapon?  Would the same be true for a DW Warrior?

Because of Attackspeed.

Axe and Dagger has 1.2 s attack speed. Axe/Axe 1.4 and Dagger/Dagger 1.0. Longsword = Axe regarding speed.
This is class independent. So for average damage per second you have to divide the damage through those values.

For instance the Axe/Dagger Cun build does more damage with his mainhand, less with his offhand and is a little bit slower than the dagger/dagger cun build. As you won't recognize the speed difference ingame, it'll look as he will do more damage than the other rogue, although the dagger/dager cun build does on average more damage. This is why I like the Axe/dagger cun build, as you have a higher chance to kill a foe with the first hit.

But keep in my that all those stats are based on the assumption of doing backstabs all the time and there is the Asassin feat included which increases backstab damage and also the tainted blade. I think there are also runes included, as I had lower values when tried to check them. So big differences in thosxe chart for a rogue can come from the backstab multiplier, or high cunning and those talent which grant bonus damage. To give you a number: The highest critical with my not optimized dual wield warrior level 19 which had strength a little bit more than dex was 85. Damage in the char screen was 66 or so, with berserker turned on. Divided by the attack speed this would equal 47 DP/S.

So you can't use those values for warriors and they play differently. But the formula is the same, just leave those feats out.
Warriors  mostly fight from the front and don't get a lot of critical hits. A Warrior usually uses strength as main attribute.
He will focus on different talents, you will max all dual wield talents, use the berserker class (+8 damage) and use the punisher talent often. There are other talent involved too, like bravery.

I'd suggest for a warrior calculation you calculate the damage per critical and the multiply it with your critical hit chance and add it to your average damage. But as the critical hit chance is pretty low, it doesn't help you with your average damage that much. Dual striking is probably the better alternative to get maximum damage than to hope for criticals. But I don't know how it works. It might use Dex, so it could be wise to invest in it.

I really don't know, perhaps Discobird will do such a thread for warriors so that we can compare Dual Wield with Sword and Board and Two-Handed. *hopes*

Modifié par torath77, 15 décembre 2009 - 11:26 .

[Silensfurtim]

I made another Duel with Loghain video. This this with CUN Rogue/Assassin/Bard build.

[Timortis]

I don't know, Loghain is really weak. I tried out a CUN dagger build with one of my old saves from my solo Rogue and he had trouble fighting crowds. He got hit a lot more and got stunned and ended up dying, even though the damage was higher. He missed a lot more too. DEX Rogue felt much easier. I'm wondering if it's possible to find a sweet spot and where exactly that would be for a solo character.

[Silensfurtim]

CUN Rogues are not made for dealing with crowds. They require party synergy, not soloing.



Why is it everything has to be solo-based?

[fchopin]

Silensfurtim wrote...

I made another Duel with Loghain video. This this with CUN Rogue/Assassin/Bard build.

Very nice, can you post your Rogue stats please?
 
I am playing as a Rogue in my new game and I am level 9 with a higher DEX than CUN and my Rogue is killing everything without any problems.
 
I am playing this play through with out any armor so don’t know if this has any influence on my player.

[Timortis]

Silensfurtim wrote...

CUN Rogues are not made for dealing with crowds. They require party synergy, not soloing.

Why is it everything has to be solo-based?

Because your video showed your character solo fighting an NPC.

Besides, the game is too easy with a full party, if you min-max you can just let AI play it for you. I clicked on an area transition got off my desk during the loading screen, when I came back my party had been attacked by a group and killed all of them, on Nightmare.

[Silensfurtim]

fchopin wrote...

Silensfurtim wrote...

I made another Duel with Loghain video. This this with CUN Rogue/Assassin/Bard build.

Very nice, can you post your Rogue stats please?
 
I am playing as a Rogue in my new game and I am level 9 with a higher DEX than CUN and my Rogue is killing everything without any problems.
 
I am playing this play through with out any armor so don’t know if this has any influence on my player.

just subtract the CUN 4 levels down.

[fchopin]

Silensfurtim wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Silensfurtim wrote...

I made another Duel with Loghain video. This this with CUN Rogue/Assassin/Bard build.

Very nice, can you post your Rogue stats please?
 
I am playing as a Rogue in my new game and I am level 9 with a higher DEX than CUN and my Rogue is killing everything without any problems.
 
I am playing this play through with out any armor so don’t know if this has any influence on my player.

just subtract the CUN 4 levels down.

Thanks

[Discobird]

Timortis wrote...

What happens when you use the same stats as the CUN Dagger/Dagger build, but use Biteback in the main hand and Rose's in the off-hand? Biteback has no STR requirement.

Pre-gear stats (same as dagger/dagger cunning)

Str: 15 + 5 = 20
Dex: 21 + 9 = 30
Cun: 20 + 46 = 66

* Mainhand: Biteback (9 base damage, 3.5 AP, +1.5 AP, +15% crit damage)
* Offhand: Rose's Thorn (6.4 base damage, 8 AP, +2 dex, +3 damage, +30% crit damage)
* Helm: Helm of Honnleath (+2 str, +2 dex, +2 cun)
* Chest: Felon's Coat (+6 dex, +9 defense)
* Gloves: Red Jenny Seekers (+15% crit damage)
* Boots: Cadash Stompers or Silverhammer's Tackmasters (+2 dex) (Cadash has extra mods of minor benefit but also increases hostility)
* Belt: Andruil's Blessing (+2 str, 2 dex, +2 cun)
* Amulet: nothing improves DPS
* Ring: Key to the City (+2 str, +2 dex, +2 cun)
* Ring: Dusk Ring (+3 cun, -1 str)

Final stats including gear (same as dagger/dagger cunning):

Str: 20 + 5 = 25
Dex: 30 + 16 = 46
Cun: 66 + 9 = 75

Unbuffed attack rating (same): 91.5 (55 base + 25.5 attribs + 6 combat training + 5 DW finesse)
Unbuffed defense rating (same): 118 (50 base + 18 leveling + 36 dex + 9 gear + 5 DW finesse)

DPS: 96 (0 armor) / 96 (10 armor) / 85 (30 armor)

About 4-5 points less than dagger/dagger cunning across the board. Roughly the same as Veshialle/Rose's Thorn.

Modifié par Discobird, 15 décembre 2009 - 05:59 .

[MarcAntony]

I've got my Rogue fully optimized and at end-game, but I am obsessing over the ring choices =p

1) Key to the City

So then, I'm left with Dusk Ring, Harvest Ring, & Wicked Oath. I suppose for normal encounters, the optimal combo would be KttC + Dusk Ring.

But for 733t bosses, revenants, & dragons with great armor and defense ratings, then I struggle over deciding which would be best. I get the feeling Wicked Oath would step in there for those battles in place of.....Dusk Ring maybe?  I hate giving up precious Cunning though  lol

But then I also think about the +4 attack from Harvest and think a Cunning Rogue can't have too much attack against the big dogs.

Rinse & Repeat

Modifié par MarcAntony, 15 décembre 2009 - 10:46 .

[crossover.attack]

Discobird wrote...

Rogue talents that use a strength resistance check:

* Cripple
* Punisher

Rogue talents that use a cunning resistance check:

* Distraction
* Upset balance
* Below the Belt
* Riposte
* Captivating Song

Plus traps. I'd say the cunning rogue is the one that can debuff more consistently. Also note that all the cunning rogues have higer cunning than the strength rogues have str.

Dirty Fighting doesn't have a resistance check.

That is interesting.  Strike another blow against the DW Warrior.  I had considered making one to explore the Riposte/Cripple/Punisher line of the talent tree (which I have ignored on rogues).  It certainly limits the usefulness of riposte for warriors, but it would be another stun for a cunning rogue...  Seems like something they should change to strength based to keep that talent line consistent.

[Fleapants]

crossover.attack wrote...
That is interesting.  Strike another blow against the DW Warrior.  I had considered making one to explore the Riposte/Cripple/Punisher line of the talent tree (which I have ignored on rogues).  It certainly limits the usefulness of riposte for warriors, but it would be another stun for a cunning rogue...  Seems like something they should change to strength based to keep that talent line consistent.

I don't recall Riposte being resisted overly much on my DW warrior, even against elite enemies, but it's rarely needed anyway. I think I only used it against casters or to free other party members from Overwhelms or Grabs.

[shaktiboy]

Silensfurtim wrote...

I made another Duel with Loghain video. This this with CUN Rogue/Assassin/Bard build.

Very impressive. Two questions, if I may:

1) What was different about this Cun rogue build than the one in the video you made comparing a Dex rogue versus a Cun rouge. In that video, both killed Logain in almost exactly the same amount of time, so one could perceive the difference as mainly being fewer knockdowns for a Dex rogue, despite the fine theory-crafting by DiscoBird and others showing that CUN dagger/dagger is the highest pure DPS. ^.^

2) I know you posted a snapshot of your stats already (at level 25). Any chance you could post a snapshot of your actual talent selections (and tell us which ones you've taken after level 21)?  I tried looking at your profile directly but you have it set to private.

Well, okay, one more question:

3) In your comments on the comparison (Dex to Cun) video on YouTube, you answered a guy with advice to go for the Cun rogue every time.  You explained that part of the reason was because a Cun rogue benefits more from overall party buffs and synergy than a Dex rogue, and you hinted that overall, there's more gear out there that boosts a Cun rogue but not as much gear that boosts a Dex rogue.  Is that essentially why you think a Cun rogue is superior?

Thanks!

[Silensfurtim]

shaktiboy wrote...

Very impressive. Two questions, if I may:

1) What was different about this Cun rogue build than the one in the video you made comparing a Dex rogue versus a Cun rouge. In that video, both killed Logain in almost exactly the same amount of time, so one could perceive the difference as mainly being fewer knockdowns for a Dex rogue, despite the fine theory-crafting by DiscoBird and others showing that CUN dagger/dagger is the highest pure DPS. ^.^

 In the Dagger Build video, I merely demonstrated the difference in damage and attack/defense rating of both builds. Its a one on one fight and the aggro is all yours. Its a different story when it comes to party skirmishes.

2) I know you posted a snapshot of your stats already (at level 25). Any chance you could post a snapshot of your actual talent selections (and tell us which ones you've taken after level 21)?  I tried looking at your profile directly but you have it set to private.

I forgot which ones I took after level 21. 

3) In your comments on the comparison (Dex to Cun) video on YouTube, you answered a guy with advice to go for the Cun rogue every time.  You explained that part of the reason was because a Cun rogue benefits more from overall party buffs and synergy than a Dex rogue

CUN Rogues benefit from lots of talents and bonuses like Armor Penetration, Tainted Blade, Exploit Weakness, and talents that benefit backstabs. With high CUN, it also gives you high persuade and lockpick checks.

With CUN Rogues lack of attack and defense, he needs party buffs to increase its attack/defense like Rally, Song of Courage, Heroic Offense/Defense, Stone Aura. With buffs, its attack/defense overtakes an unbuffed DEX rogues attack rate a little, while still retaining the uber damage bonuses from high CUN. For a pure backstabber rogue, it doesnt pose much of a problem since flanking gives you additional +20 attack bonus. 

there's more gear out there that boosts a Cun rogue but not as much gear that boosts a Dex rogue.

There are more equipments out there that give DEX bonuses rather the CUN. That offsets the lack of DEX of a CUN rogue.


Honestly, I don't think the CUN is superior in every way. Its just made to deal uber backstab damage. I think its more of a role-playing build. But thats just me.

Modifié par Silensfurtim, 16 décembre 2009 - 05:48 .

[shaktiboy]

Thanks, Silensfurtim, for the detailed reply. That fills in some conceptual gaps I had. ^.^

[rainmaker4]

Does my player character profile show my max dps i can make? I saved a game with a balanced rogue (dex in high 20''s, Cun in 30's and Str in low 20's) but then i respec'd and tried to see the difference in a Cun Rogue going with Cun in high 40's, Dex and Str in low 20's).



However, on my profie stats, i don't see much difference in my defense, armor, attack rating and the two numbers for my weapon damage (it was 29ish for each hand. I have rose thorn on main and the edge on my off).



So is there a way to see what changes i have in my Cun Rogue? Or can i notice the difference only in combat with the damage numbers?