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[Discobird]

rainmaker4 wrote...

Does my player character profile show my max dps i can make?

No.  The character sheet does not account for:

* Attack speed when dual-wielding
* Backstab multiplier
* Exploit Weakness
* Runes

[rainmaker4]

thx Discobird and may i say that all this calculation stuff makes you freaking hot IMO.

[Silensfurtim]

LOL

[MarcAntony]

***Semi-spoiler***

Just wanted to give a props Disco. Just finished my 1st playthrough at lvl23 – had exactly 100 Cunning and….46 Dex, I believe + 45% added Backstab/Critical Dmg. Either way, the “lethality” of this build is unreal. On the Archdemon fight, I took two Mages with me and did not allow either of them to dps at all, never used a Ballista, and left Shale in support mode most of the time (Taunt ---> Support Mode with Glyph of Warding). Almost 100% of the dps came from my Rogue. This was my initial attempt (didn’t know you could use Ballistas)

I never used any cheap tactics, except I did Force Field the Archdemon once to allow everyone a couple seconds to get over to his…..3rd landing spot across the tower. He broke out of the force field in like 3 seconds and blasted us a bit before we repositioned, so I can safely say I played it straight-up. No CoC was used, since it does damage – again, all damage was done by the Rogue.

Essentially, all I did was debuff the boss with anything that would lower his defense and/or armor (Weakness, Death Hex, Upset Balance, Deadly Strike, and Power of Blood) and watched my Rogue just go apesh*t on the Archdemon lulz. I of course used Swift Salves and a couple other various potions, but it was his show from start to finish. No one came even close to dying with the two Mages providing Telekenetic/Frost Weapons, direct & group heals + regen on my Rogue to allow for full-time Tainted Blade. With Dueling activated + Heroic Offense, his +Attack was at 138 and he only missed a few times. I position Directly behind him for full +attack bonus and took a couple face-kicks, but it was easily healed through. The swift salves are huge by not only making your attack speed blinding, but also to allow for hellafast positioning

It was awesome and very impressive. I plan on going back to a different save point to do the fight with Allistair instead of Shale and this time I’m going to Fraps it ^_-


Edit: This was on Hard, not Nightmare.  Might try NM next though

Modifié par MarcAntony, 17 décembre 2009 - 07:24 .

[De Bartman]

Just finished first playthrough (normal) as a female cun rogue and oh my **** is this build powerful!  For example,
The Loghain Fight was no fight at all. I just stunned him and 5 hits later he was dead. Loghain never swung his sword or did a war cry. The archdemon too was a piece of cake. summoned the elves as a distraction and the dragon did NOT like that. Gave me a chance to show my dual dagger skills and he went down FAST.  My thoughest fight was that one with the blob in the deep roads. needed a couple of tries to get adjusted to new tactics.

Some observations:

-Dirty fighting is awesome. And you get it for FREE!
-Disappointed in stealth. although It did help me in some fights (disarm traps before fights and in the Loghain fight).invested early in stealth and imho didn't pay off. next run through I'll take other talents first.
-No crowd control for my rouge. Guess that is why I got alistair taunting.....
-Your best and most equipment only gets available late game because mostly I lack funds to buy them.

Guess I'll be upgrading to Hard or Nightmare next

[daoftw]

Great job with the research and stuff Discobird! All right, I'm planning on making a DEX based DW rogue because of the extra defense perks mainly. I'm not sure what specializations would be most useful though. Assassins have exploit weakness which uses cunning. Duelist increases attack/defense which DEX rogues already have plenty of. Bard uses Song of Courage which uses cunning. Ranger...not sure. Anyways, it seems as if Assassin/Duelist would be best according to previous posts, but I don't see the benefits.

[Silensfurtim]

daoftw wrote...
 Anyways, it seems as if Assassin/Duelist would be best according to previous posts, but I don't see the benefits.

A/B brings out the best in CUN Rogue.

[daoftw]

I was referring to a DEX rogue...

[Silensfurtim]

daoftw wrote...

I was referring to a DEX rogue...

oops sorry didnt see that.. drunk and 3AM here 

yeah, A/D is good for DEX Rogue.

[Haplose]

daoftw wrote...

Great job with the research and stuff Discobird! All right, I'm planning on making a DEX based DW rogue because of the extra defense perks mainly. I'm not sure what specializations would be most useful though. Assassins have exploit weakness which uses cunning. Duelist increases attack/defense which DEX rogues already have plenty of. Bard uses Song of Courage which uses cunning. Ranger...not sure. Anyways, it seems as if Assassin/Duelist would be best according to previous posts, but I don't see the benefits.

You arguably don't NEED the Attack/Defence buff from Duelist. But it doesn't hurt either. And Pinpoint Strike (15 seconds of autocrits) is awesome, especially against enemies immune to flanking, especially coupled with Dual Striking (yes, you cause crits under dual-striking with Pinpoint Strike).

As for Assasin, Mark of Assasin and Exploit Weakness both depend on Cunnning, but as a Dex Rogue you're still likely to end with a score of 30-40 Cunning (if only to open all locks, disarm all traps, steal from everyone.. maybe save on 1 Coercion rank). So it's still some extra damage.
And Feast of the Fallen is very nice to rapidly recover lots of stamina (for more Pinpoint Strikes, Dirty Fighting, Riposte, BtB)...

[Legacy_QuEsT]

you know what I so love about this thread. Reading 21 pages of posts with little to no explanation of where to put talents. quality thread, for everything except talents, which makes me completely as ignorant as when I first started reading this thread 3 hours ago. thread wins!

[Silensfurtim]

^this is not a BUILD thread.

[shaktiboy]

Legacy_QuEsT wrote...

you know what I so love about this thread. Reading 21 pages of posts with little to no explanation of where to put talents. quality thread, for everything except talents, which makes me completely as ignorant as when I first started reading this thread 3 hours ago. thread wins!

No offense, mate, but DiscoBird pretty much lays it out on page 1 or 2 of the thread:

The stat and gear allocations are in my OPs. As for talents, every DW rogue will want the following IMO:
* Momentum
* Master stealth
* Combat movement
* Tainted Blade (Warden's Keep DLC only)
* Exploit weakness (Assassin)
* Dueling and Upset balance, some say Pinpoint Striking is worth it too (Duelist). If you're a cunning rogue you may alternatively consider going Bard for your second spec and getting Song of Courage.
* DW finesse (not as important as the others, it's just +5 attack)
* And of course, the cunning rogues will need Lethality too.

I wouldn't take DW Mastery unless you want to use dual full-sized weapons. DW Expert and DW Mastery give tiny benefits to the rest of the builds.

Those are the bread and butter skills. If you're a CUN rogue you need Lethality. If you're a DEX rogue, you don't need Lethality or either of its two prereq talents. Other that the above-listed skills, the rest should be chosen according to what utility you want to bring to the table.

Note that in other threads there's fairly compelling evidence that if you go the DEX route, you might alternatively find a nearly constant +20 DPS from your pet with the Ranger Specialization to be useful too. The spec choice seems to be up in the air overall except for a CUN rogue benefiting fairly well from the Cunning scaling in Song of Courage (Bard spec).

Modifié par shaktiboy, 21 décembre 2009 - 06:00 .

[Khumak]

Great breakdown on DW. I'm hoping the next patch tweaks DW Mastery to make dualing 2 main handers at roughly equivalent in DPS to 2 daggers. All it really needs is a minor tweak that adds a little speed (stackable) to all main hand weapons (not daggers). Personally, I give my DW warriors 2 main handers anyway, mechanics be damned.

[Reinald21]

Human or Elf Rogue ?

Are there any real advantages to either?

[Fleapants]

Reinald21 wrote...

Human or Elf Rogue ?
Are there any real advantages to either?

The only difference is the racial stat bonuses.
Humans starts with +1 Str, Dex & Cun while elves got +1 Magic and +2 Willpower.

Not a big difference, but min/maxers prefer humans

[tetracycloide]

Elves get different origin bonuses, however. On net I'd say a good min/maxer might prefer the city elf origin for the unique dagger to one point in Str, Dex, and Cun. Dalish elves get one of the better mage robes and initial armor set in their origin.

[Silensfurtim]

Discobird, I have a question. Where did the 118 Unbuffed Defense of DD CUN Rogue came from?



I have a level 25 CUN DD Rogue but my unbuffed defense can only reach 113.



My stats are as follows (not really into uber min/maxing)



STR 20 + +6 = 26

DEX 35 + 18 = 53

WIL 20 + 8 = 28

MAG 13 + 6 = 19

CUN 76 + 7 = 83

CON 12 + 6 = 18



My gear:



Helm of Honnleath

Felon's Coat

Red Jenny Seekers

Cadash Stompers

Mark of Vigilance

Wicked Oath

Key to the City

Andruils Blessing

Rose Thorn

The Edge



Armor: 25

Defense: 113

Attack: 100

[ericsa]

I'm pretty sure flurry gets the backstab crit, speaking from experience. Where does it say otherwise?

[wwwwowwww]

T0rin3 wrote...

You don't want to skip Assassin as a melee rogue, especially a cunning based melee rogue, but Duelist and Bard are pretty interchangable as far as attack rating. The main reason to go bard is for the damage bonus from song of courage. At high cunning, the attack bonus from SoC is about the same as you get from Duelist.

Don't know if this is asked  yet as I'm only to this part so forgive me if it's covered.

If your traveling with Leliana can she not use the SoC on your Assassin/Duelist thus giving you the bonuses to from both? 

[ELOE1985]

Two characters using Song of Courage will stack, thus you can arguably get a higher bonus from using a Bard specialization. Also, Dueling is a set 10 Attack while Song of Courage can be much higher depending on your Cunning.



Flurry does not get the backstab bonus. It's own description says it does three normal hits. It can be a critical hit, but not a backstab.

[wwwwowwww]

ELOE1985 wrote...

Two characters using Song of Courage will stack, thus you can arguably get a higher bonus from using a Bard specialization. Also, Dueling is a set 10 Attack while Song of Courage can be much higher depending on your Cunning.

Flurry does not get the backstab bonus. It's own description says it does three normal hits. It can be a critical hit, but not a backstab.

So instead of taking Duelist and utilizing the +10 Defense +10 Attack, and stacking it with Leliana's SoC are you saying it's better to take Bard and stack your SoC with Leliana's? If that's the case could you feasably make Zeph a bard also and stack all 3 SoC's? 

[jeminizero]

I have a minor suggestion. For those builds with a large mainhand weapon (Axe/Sword) and Rose Thorn on offhand. You could keep natural Dex at 24 (high enough for Momentum), and then rely on +6 Dex from items (Helm of Honnleath, Key to City, Anduril's Blessing) to meet the Dex requirement for Rose Thorn (since you're already using gear to qualify for Warden Commander Armour).

Transfer those 6 points to Str/Cunning. The Dagger damage will remain the same (since average of Str/Cun and Dex is still the same) but the mainhand weapon will do slightly more damage. I estimate it should do about 4 dps more for Str based (6 Str/Cun * 0.375 * 1.1 weapon multiplier * critical multiplier of ~2 / attack interval of 1.2), and slightly more for Cun based builds.

The same thing might also be done with Dagger/Dagger cunning, but the average damage should be the same, and in practice will fall slightly as lower Dex reduces attack bonus.

[Kipferl]

@Discobird
Could you please do a calculation for archers too?

[Clintster75]

Reinald21 wrote...

Human or Elf Rogue ?
Are there any real advantages to either?

Where's the dwarf love?  They get bonuses to str and dex.  Commoners get stealing and nobles get combat training I believe.  AND you get +10% spell resistance!  Plus all the cool beards...