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[tetracycloide]

ELOE1985 wrote...

Two characters using Song of Courage will stack, thus you can arguably get a higher bonus from using a Bard specialization. Also, Dueling is a set 10 Attack while Song of Courage can be much higher depending on your Cunning.

Much higher isn't really true.  Song of Courage adds (Cunning - 5)/10 + 2 attack which means to get 10 attack, equal to duelist, Cunning would have to be 80 at a minimum (80 - 5)/10 + 2 = 9.5 which rounds up to 10.  To get more than duelist, but still only 11 attack total, cunning would have to be 90 which is pretty difficult but not impossible.  This bonus, however, is only greater than duelist after reaching that point in stat progression i.e. the very very end of the game.  On average duelist is much more attack.

[Kelandria]

Thank you for your contribution to the Dragon Age: Origin community.  Your guide has been added to the "Guide Compilation for Dragon Age: Origins"

[mcheer]

Silensfurtim wrote...

Discobird, I have a question. Where did the 118 Unbuffed Defense of DD CUN Rogue came from?

I have a level 25 CUN DD Rogue but my unbuffed defense can only reach 113.

My stats are as follows (not really into uber min/maxing)

STR 20 + +6 = 26
DEX 35 + 18 = 53
WIL 20 + 8 = 28
MAG 13 + 6 = 19
CUN 76 + 7 = 83
CON 12 + 6 = 18

My gear:

Helm of Honnleath
Felon's Coat
Red Jenny Seekers
Cadash Stompers
Mark of Vigilance
Wicked Oath
Key to the City
Andruils Blessing
Rose Thorn
The Edge

Armor: 25
Defense: 113
Attack: 100

Your Defense = 50 (base) + 43 (Dex Bonus) + 9 (Felon's Coat) + 6 (Mark of Vigilance) + 5 (DW Finesse) = 113

Discobirds calculation includes +18 from levelling. The missing manual states that Defense is increased +1/lvl, however, this doesn't appear on screen. I don't know whether the error is the Missing Manual (thus Discobirds), the onscreen data (the per level increase IS used in calculations), or if it was changed in a patch?

Does anybody know the answer??

[Jarrydian]

Just curious, but if I were to make a Dagger/Dagger cun rogue, which stat(s) are best to start off with at low levels? Max out Dex to the mid 20s for more attack options I take it?

[tetracycloide]

It really depends on how much you want to gimp your character early in the game to eak out a few extra points in cunning late in the game. Even at 10 base strength there's enough fonts and gear to get enough for felon's coat without ever adding a point but I still like to get mine to 12 base just so I don't have to wait as long.



For dexterity it's possible to get away with base as well with all the +dexterity and +all stats gear making it possible to equip tier 7 daggers but dual weapon talents require 26 hard points to pick up everything a rogue will 'need' and more if you want gravy talents like whirlwind. Remember to subtrace the fade essences and fonts from whatever the minimum requirement is for the talent you want in you build that requires the most dexterity and then pump to that level very early in the game.



Cunning pays off late game with lethality and high armor targets. Early in the game hit the requisite levels of strength, then dexterity before anything else with the exeption of making sure there's enough cunning to unlock any skills you might want.

[daoun]

quick question, how does Duncan's dagger compare to the Edge and the Thorn? is it worth taking it over those? It's available in Return to Ostagar DLC..

[swk3000]

There are a couple of things that may affect these calculations available in the Return to Ostagar DLC, so I'll post what you can get here.



Duncan's Dagger

Dragonbone Dagger (may scale; not sure, as I completed the DLC with a Level 23 character)

+4 Dexterity

+10% Critical/Backstab Damage

+10 Damage vs. Dragons (!)

3 Rune Slots



Duncan's Sword

Dragonbone Longsword

+3 Willpower

+3 Cunning

+4 Stamina Regen in Combat (!)

+4 Damage vs. Darkspawn

3 slots



Maric's Blade

Red Steel Longsword (however, there's no Strength requirement to use it)

+1.5 Combat Health Regen

+1.5 Combat Stamina Regen

Weakens nearby Darkspawn

+6 Damage vs. Darkspawn

2 slots



Cailan's Gauntlets also have the same Backstab/Crit Damage boost, but they also have +1 armor. The only drawback is that they're Massive Armor, so they need 36 Strength to equip. Red Jenny Seekers give the same bonus, but are easier to equip, so they're not really worth swapping out.

[Kipferl]

D: DAGGER/DAGGER CUN

This rogue will have pre-gear stats of:

Str: 15 + 5 (to wear T7 light armor early)
Dex: 21 + 9 = 30
Cun: 20 + 46 = 66

* Mainhand: Rose's Thorn (6.4 base damage, 8 AP, +2 dex, +3 damage, +30% crit damage)
* Offhand: Thorn of the Dead Gods (6 dam, 7 AP, +3 damage, +3 AP)
* Helm: Helm of Honnleath (+2 str, +2 dex, +2 cun)
* Chest: Felon's Coat (+6 dex, +9 defense)
* Gloves: Red Jenny Seekers (+15% crit damage)
* Boots: Cadash Stompers or Silverhammer's Tackmasters (+2 dex) (Cadash has extra mods of minor benefit but also increases hostility)
* Belt: Andruil's Blessing (+2 str, 2 dex, +2 cun)
* Amulet: nothing improves DPS
* Ring: Key to the City (+2 str, +2 dex, +2 cun)
* Ring: Dusk Ring (+3 cun, -1 str)

Isn't there a cap of +30% to bonuses from equipment?

[Silensfurtim]

^ that was before. Discobird found that there isnt.

[tetracycloide]

I posted this here on accident but I guess I'll just leave it here for posterity's sake unless a mod corrects me.

Discobird wrote...

C * (AVERAGE(W, W * R) + 0.375 * X * Y ) + O - A

C is the critical hit/backstab modifier,
W is the weapon's base damage,
R is the weapon's damage range multiplier. The game randomizes your weapon's damage between W and W * R. For daggers and longswords, R is 1.5; for axes it's 1.4. For example, a dagger with a listed base damage of 6.4 will actually do between 6.4 and 1.5 * 6.4 = 9.6 damage. Thus the expected weapon damage will be AVERAGE(W, W * R).
X is the attribute modifier (e.g. 1.10 for axes, 0.425 for daggers),
Y is the number of relevant attribute points above 10 in each relevant attribute.
O is all other sources of bonus damage, and

C defaults to 1.5 but can be raised up to 3.5 by gear. (Thanks gorboth for pointing out that the cap is 3.5, not 2!)

Why is the bonus damage from attributes multiplied by 0.375? Because, when dual-wielding, the game randomizes your attribute damage bonus to between 25-50% of its list value before throwing it in the damage calcs. This is one source of random variation in damage output. Thus your expected attribute damage bonus will be only 37.5% of its list value. (For every other weapon style besides dual-wielding, the random factor is between 50-75% of list value.)

Here is a list of all the sources of bonus damage that I accounted for (everything that goes into O):
* Exploit Weakness, which adds an expected (0.52/3) * (cunning-10) bonus damage to each backstab. Thanks Twenynge for correcting me on this (I'd prevoiusly thought it was 0.2 * (cunning-10)).
* Tainted Blood, which adds 5 + 0.2 * (cunning-10) bonus damage
* Bonus damage from gear, including runes and bonus damage on offhand weapons (offhand bonuses seem to contribute to mainhand attacks)
* Bonus damage from levelling (for rogues this is 0.2 damage per level)
 

The equation for max damage simply floors or maximizes all the variable factors just to see if 250 damage is possible.  So the attribute mod randomization factor of 25-50% will be 50%, the average weapon damage will just be the maximum weapon damage, and target armor will be assumed to be 0.  Are these realistic expectations?  I think so.  You will need to get lucky on the first two and the last one can be virtually guranteed on the right targets with the right buffs, telekenetic weapons double counts for dual wielding and armor penetration caps at 41 which is not hard to do at all.

So this leaves:  C * (W * R + .5 * x * Y) +0

Now we know that runes and weapon enchants like flaming weapons don't count in the damage but are added seperately in the display so I'm going to assume they don't count for heavy hitter either.  Physical bonus damage from talents and mods, however, does appear to get added into the single weapon damage number so those bonus damage sources I will also count.

I'm going to assume level 25 human rogue with every possible point spent on cunning.  This isn't exactly realistic since it would require forgoing momentum and dual weapon expert however we're trying to max a single strike here, not DPS.

So, assuming absolute max cunning,stacking +cunning gear for a song of courage and tainted blood prebuffs,two bards in party at 90 cunning each, and the following gear:

Head: Helm of Honnleath
Gloves: Red Jenny Seekers
Body: Warden Commander Armor (possible with tier 3 armor and extreme str gear stacking) (requires DLC)
Belt: Guildmaster's Belt (requires DLC)
Amulet: Nothing helps!
Ring: Dusk Ring
Ring: The Wicked Oath (requires DLC)
Main Hand: The Vishialle
Off Hand: The Rose's Thorn

We have the following inputs in our equation above
C = 2.15
W = 9.6
R=1.4
X=1.1
Y=102
O=70.3

Total damage would be 2.3*(9.6*1.4 + .5*1.1*102)+70.3 = 230.24

This does not include mark of death or shale's aura since I don't have values for how much damage each of those sources actually adds.  If they add 20 or more damage combined than a player could, if they were very very lucky and completely gimped their entire build to do so, dual wield and hit 250 damage.  I do not believe these two buffs add 20 damage combined, however.

Modifié par tetracycloide, 23 janvier 2010 - 03:45 .

[High Magus]

What if you add Dual Striking in there? Does that put you over the threshold?

[soteria]

If you add Dual Striking in there, how are you going to get a backstab or critical? A better question would be, why not three bards?

[wby87]

On RTO items:

Crow Dagger wasn't good enough, Duncan's dagger probably isn't either. The differences between the offhands are small through.

[High Magus]

True, forgot it stopped backstabs and crits...

[bstanley52]

Discobird wrote...

* Bonus damage from gear, including runes and bonus damage on offhand weapons (offhand bonuses seem to contribute to mainhand attacks)
 

Okay, I have read through the OPs and a bit of the first couple pages and I wanted to know if the offhand weapon's regular bonuses (not runes) apply to the overall build. I am not speaking specifically about backstabs but to overall damage. If I have a regular dagger in my MH and say Duncan's dagger (+4 dex, +10% crit/backstab, +10 damage vs dragons) in my offhand then do I always do +10 damage vs dragons with either hand? 

At one point is saw people saying that offensive runes in your offhand are useless... but is that only for backstabs?

I am currently running a dagger/dagger cun build on my first full playthrough and would like a bit of clarification.

Sorry, I'm not willing to read through 22 pages for the answer.

[High Magus]

Pretty sure all bonus damage applies to every attack, hence why everyone likes the Edge.



Damage runes in the offhand never trigger on backstabs.

[Dracorat]

What about Longsword/Longsword ??

[High Magus]

Dracorat wrote...

What about Longsword/Longsword ??

Why would you do that? Huge attack speed loss by using two full size weapons.

[RangerSG]

High Magus wrote...

Dracorat wrote...

What about Longsword/Longsword ??

Why would you do that? Huge attack speed loss by using two full size weapons.

Actually does work better for a warrior, with the area attacks included. But for a rogue, which is the topic of this thread...no.

[Dracorat]

RangerSG wrote...

High Magus wrote...

Dracorat wrote...

What about Longsword/Longsword ??

Why would you do that? Huge attack speed loss by using two full size weapons.

Actually does work better for a warrior, with the area attacks included. But for a rogue, which is the topic of this thread...no.

I may be thick skulled but I read the original post a couple times and I'm not seeing it.

The reason I ask is that I can get some pretty good damage numbers using two swords and I find more swords with rune slots than I find daggers with the same number of slots.

Modifié par Dracorat, 11 février 2010 - 02:34 .

[Haplose]

Good damage number, perhaps. But not good attack speed. Lower numbers flying much faster over the screen are better.



Now longswords are better for skill-spam. But Rogues mostly Backstab.

[Silensfurtim]

Okay ladies and gents looks like our character builds will be changed due to the non-inclusion of DLC/Promo items to DAO Awakenings.



We'll be losing Helm of Honnleath.

[Admiral_Phoenix]

What kind of cunning/dex numbers would a hybrid cun/dex DW rogue have to maximize damage? I was wondering how a 40 cunning/rest into dex hybrid would compare to a full dex or full cun DW rogue.

[Chunga5836]

I had been working towards this and I had the Warden's armor in the box waiting while I got money for Rose's thorn and Andruil's blessing. The armor needs a 36 strength. I waited too long didn't I?

[DeathViper1959]

ya my character is a rogue, but all the numbering stuf and speed this and seconds that is to deep for me, i just want to play and build a decent character, not get totaly immersed in the game dynamics!



I have enogh time to play the game, not to master its complexities, just make a guide that says do these things and you will be ok.