612 réponses à ce sujet

[Silensfurtim]

Flicker (DEX 52) is just a bonus. Its just a cool talent to play with lol. But for practical purpose? Not really needed.

[Silensfurtim]

my rogue

[spartyjones]

Thanks, Silensfurtim, I used your video as a guide and was able to get my lvl 35 rogue (with 150 cun) to do 604 damage! I think it's time to turn up the difficulty...

[Elfcrusher]

 Sorry if this is a nub question, but if I'm going dagger/dagger is there a really good reason to go either (mostly) all cunning or all dex?  Is there a downside to blending them?  The example builds show one stat stacked really high, and the other left low.  Was that just using extremes to illustrate the difference?

[traversc]

I did these calculations a long time ago for Origins and Awakening.



http://dragonage.wik...gue_Maximum_DPS



TLDR: maximum decked out rogue at level 35 does about 550 DPS.

[traversc]

Elfcrusher wrote...

 Sorry if this is a nub question, but if I'm going dagger/dagger is there a really good reason to go either (mostly) all cunning or all dex?  Is there a downside to blending them?  The example builds show one stat stacked really high, and the other left low.  Was that just using extremes to illustrate the difference?

Realistically, you want SOME dex.  In Awakening, cunning isn't as good as it was before, now that we don't have Tainted Blade available (yet).  A 1:1 split is a good idea IMO.  You'll do marginally less damage per hit but will hit more often, take less damage and resist AoE stuns more often. 

[CymTyr2000]

Very good info. Thanks for sharing  I'm planning on rolling a rogue after I play through as my current character.

[blademaster7]

traversc wrote...

In Awakening, cunning isn't as good as it was before, now that we don't have Tainted Blade available (yet).

I beg to differ. Cunning Rogues are godly in Awakening. There is a fix for Tainted Blade for PC users but you don't really need it. Everything drops dead so fast.

Song of courage is a big difference maker. It was good in DAO but in the XP it's just ridiculous with all the cunning you can get.

The damage bonus at higher levels surpasses even Berserkers and the attack bonus is a lot higher than rally. Kinda makes warriors obsolete.

[traversc]

blademaster7 wrote...

traversc wrote...

In Awakening, cunning isn't as good as it was before, now that we don't have Tainted Blade available (yet).

I beg to differ. Cunning Rogues are godly in Awakening. There is a fix for Tainted Blade for PC users but you don't really need it. Everything drops dead so fast.

That's true.  But it's not official yet, since there's no official patch.  I'm just saying what's possible without resorting to mods. 

Song of courage is a big difference maker. It was good in DAO but in the XP it's just ridiculous with all the cunning you can get.

The damage bonus at higher levels surpasses even Berserkers and the attack bonus is a lot higher than rally. Kinda makes warriors obsolete.

Yet you can prebuff with cunning gear, making the difference for song of courage only between base stats.  Realistically, full cunning will only have about 30-40 more points into cunning than a 1:1 split (assuming you get enough dexterity for Flicker).  That's only a difference of ~2 damage per hit due to song of courage.  Extremely marginal when you're doing 500+ DPS. 

Modifié par traversc, 08 avril 2010 - 09:31 .

[ShadowPlay 14]

Can someone lay it out for me simply? What base stats am I aiming for?

Modifié par ShadowPlay 14, 18 avril 2010 - 01:48 .

[traversc]

ShadowPlay 14 wrote...

Can someone lay it out for me simply? What base stats am I aiming for?

Just split everything between dex and cunning.  It's hard to go wrong.  Besides that, gear is arguably more important than stats. 

[panjshirlion]

Sorry if this has been answered, but the thread is a bit too large to search thoroughly.



Quick question: why does Cunning give a net increase in DPS over Dexterity? I understand that cunning also increased armor penetration, but the DPS increase is visible even at 0 armor. Is it increased chance to crit? If so, doesn't backstabbing/auto-critting render that moot anyway?

[spartyjones]

Nvm. Apparently, I don't know what I'm talking about. My rogue still kicks butt, though!

Modifié par spartyjones, 21 avril 2010 - 01:07 .

[panjshirlion]

Yes, but doesn't Dexterity already determine attack damage for rogues using daggers?

[keesio74]

Exploit Weakness gives you a bonus depending on your cunning stat

[panjshirlion]

Ahhh, bingo. Exploit Weakness. That must be it.

[keesio74]

Anyone ever do DPS calculations for DW rogues WITHOUT backstabbing? Basically which weapon/attribute combo wins out when going toe-to-toe with an opponent?

[Stealth2Kill]

There is one thing i don't understand, why do a lot of builds only have DW Finesse, and not DW Mastery?

[Silensfurtim]

Stealth2Kill wrote...

There is one thing i don't understand, why do a lot of builds only have DW Finesse, and not DW Mastery?

in Origins, its a waste of talent points since DD Rogues only use daggers. 

DW Mastery allows you to wield 2 swords and gives you reduced stamina use for talents.

[swk3000]

Dual Wield Mastery does 2 things: Reduces Stamina costs by 2.5% when Dual Wielding, and allows you to use two main-hand weapons. The first is useless because of the low amount, and the second is useless because having even one Main-Hand Weapon actually slows your attack rate. Having 2 slows it even further, so you're looking at a marked drop in overall damage output. Frankly, there's better uses for your Talents.



Dual Weapon Expert might be worth taking, though. Apparently, the lacerations only trigger on Yellow or Orange enemies. At max level, you get 8 damage every 1.5 seconds for 8 seconds, so you're looking at about 40 extra damage on a single hit. Combine this with the fact that the Rogue will continue to attack, and it may be worth taking. Then again, it may not. I'm not good with those sorts of numbers.

[mrjazzman]

hrm after months and months and months of not playing i just restarted DAO 2-3 days ago - and again I want to make a rogue (i's just started one before quitting back then)
And imagine my joy to see that this thread is still around
Excuse me for not reading everything but this is indeed a long thread.

And again I'm torn between CUN and DEX. the def and off bonuses from cun are somewhat attractive - a shame there is no way to say how much that is worth practically (or is there one meanwhile? Oh question number one in brackets - bad writing)
hrm anyway - I'll get the dex I need for the talents first and then worry about that. Still not sure on what talents to choose either though - don't know how good I want my rogue to be at stealth and lockpicking and stuff like that. I'm guessing a cun build doesn't need to spend talent points on lockpicking though.

Oh my god I'm babbling. Okay here goes a list of questions instead of my blabber:
1. Have the mechanics behind att and def ratings been somewhat clarified since this thread was started? (I mean especially the corresponding numbers of "the average enemy")
2. Any new consesnus on "the ideal build"? Back when I was here more often most people preferred cun builds.
3. Have archers improved significantly over the last 3 patches. Meaning: are they a viable alternative to melee rogues especially dps wise? (because if so I guess I'll roll a tank instead and leave the rogue stuff to leliana)

edit: oh and 4. Anything to know/plan ahead should I get awakening anytime soon? I don't have plans to buy it atm but you never know. And if I do I guess it'd be nice to have a fitting character for it. I do admit to having min/maxed in some games in the past - aouldn't be reading this thread otherwise anyway I guess. And while I don't *really* do it in DA I still lean a little towards it.)

Modifié par mrjazzman, 01 juillet 2010 - 02:32 .

[beancounter501]

Most enemies have an attk between 70 to 90. The defense usually runs in the same range. This is around level 15. To auto hit a target you need to have an attack score 46 points higher then their defense. So an attack rating around 140 should give you a hit rate in the high 90's. Reverants have a very high defense around 100 which is the highest I have seen in the game. Plus the Aura of Weakness debuffs your attack. So you need an extremely high attack rating to constantly hit them.



A lot of the dmg calculations are really skewed by tainted blade. Take that out of the equation and there is hardly any difference between a cun rogue and a dex rogue. But the dex rogue has a much higher attack and defense rating. Rember misses do not do any damage.

[soteria]

beancounter, don't forget the flanking bonus rogues get, lowering the need for a high attack score. Stun/paralysis also lowers defense, and imo a rogue built for backstabbing should pretty much always be either flanking or attacking a stunned target. Cunning has the further benefit of reducing the number of talents required for device mastery, as well. It also improves bard and assassin talents.

[Addai]

Stealth2Kill wrote...

There is one thing i don't understand, why do a lot of builds only have DW Finesse, and not DW Mastery?

It's slow.  Dual-dagger is faster and thus more efficient, so it's a waste of a talent slot to take Mastery.  I only take it for Alistair because he looks nice with the big shiny swords.  Or with a character I want to wield dual axes.  IOW, more for RP value than gameplay.

[Addai]

beancounter501 wrote...
 Reverants have a very high defense around 100 which is the highest I have seen in the game. Plus the Aura of Weakness debuffs your attack. So you need an extremely high attack rating to constantly hit them.

They can be paralyzed, though.  I've fought revenants where I'm not even sure they got a single hit in.