612 réponses à ce sujet

[MBirkhofer]

Just quickly.



Pretty sure Starfang/rose's thorn is the highest dps.

bs/crit bonus from thorn, +damage, as well as highest topend for Starfang, etc.

There is no offhand sword as good as the thorn for bonuses, so then dual weapon mastery isn't very useful.

If you were using actives like flurry, punisher, ww and dw sweep, then highest 1 hits would matter.

Dual longsword is best for sweep and ww. (Although the difference is small, and not worth the gains you get for single target dps with roses thorn)



Riposte's attacks after the stun will do face/backstabs if you have coup de grace.



Pretty sure the Felon's coat, is the best rogue armor.

+6 dex, +1 stam regen. And a ton of defensive stats.

http://www.gamebansh...AO_Items.id=978

[tranj84cl]

MBirkhofer wrote...

Just quickly.

Pretty sure Starfang/rose's thorn is the highest dps.
bs/crit bonus from thorn, +damage, as well as highest topend for Starfang, etc.
There is no offhand sword as good as the thorn for bonuses, so then dual weapon mastery isn't very useful.
If you were using actives like flurry, punisher, ww and dw sweep, then highest 1 hits would matter.
Dual longsword is best for sweep and ww. (Although the difference is small, and not worth the gains you get for single target dps with roses thorn)

Riposte's attacks after the stun will do face/backstabs if you have coup de grace.

Pretty sure the Felon's coat, is the best rogue armor.
+6 dex, +1 stam regen. And a ton of defensive stats.
http://www.gamebansh...AO_Items.id=978

Using a Long Sword/Dagger combo slows down your attack speed, as I believe you average your weapon speeds together.  Of course, this does not matter if you are using activated skills, but I don't think you will have the stamina necessary if you are maintaining all the buffs.  If you're going for all out damage, you won't be putting points into willpower.  You'd have to build the rogue a bit differently for using skills.  


Mentioned somewhere earlier about using Haste.  Haste+Momentum is bugged I believe.  You end up attacking even slower with both on.

[Amioran]

All good an fine, but I continue to repeat a thing that it's not considered too much.



In DPS calculations is assumed that you hit 100% of the time. I can understand that an estimation to hit rate would be too difficult to do, however this naturally makes a cunning build naturally better since the most blatant inconvenient of high cunning (and not strength or dexterity) is just the fact that you will miss a lot often.



Dexterity and Strength both gives +attack and +damage. Cunning only gives +damage. Sure, there are buffs that can overcome it some way, but will never overcome the gap if it is too large. This is not an AW build where you have Miasma and Combat Magic to overcome the missing +attack.



Considering this point an high cunning build lose DPS, actually, since you will miss a lot of times. For example on how large the miss chance counts in DPS values try to run an AW without Miasma and Combat Magic. Without Dexterity no matter the damage he can do, he will miss almost all the time. Same thing can happen to an high cunning build with only 28 dexterity and 20 strength.



Or you have a mage devoted solely on making your rogue to hit or your high cunning rogue will lag much behind and high dexterity (or strength) one.

[Discobird]

MBirkhofer wrote...


Just quickly.

Pretty sure Starfang/rose's thorn is the highest dps.
bs/crit bonus from thorn, +damage, as well as highest topend for Starfang, etc.

I put a Starfang/Rose's Thorn str build through my spreadsheet and got DPS figures of 97 (0 armor) / 97 (10 armor) / 80 (30 armor).  So it is very close to the axe/dagger and dagger/dagger builds we've been looking at, but not better (actually a teensy bit worse than the top three DPS builds).

Veshialle has the advantage of a bigger attribute multiplier and an inbuilt backstab multiplier so you're not stuck with +crit damage gloves.

Pretty sure the Felon's coat, is the best rogue armor.
+6 dex, +1 stam regen. And a ton of defensive stats.
http://www.gamebansh...AO_Items.id=978

Yeah it is a great armor overall, and I think this is a good time to emphasize that all my gear selections are purely DPS-oriented for purposes of the analysis and don't take into account the other good qualities of gear. I'm not sure Felon's Coat is better than Warden Commander armor for the axe rogues though, who don't get a damage bonus from dex.

[Aldriann]

Discobird wrote...
Veshialle has the advantage of a bigger attribute multiplier and an inbuilt backstab multiplier so you're not stuck with +crit damage gloves

Is there a limit on how many +crit damage items you can have?

[Discobird]

Whoops, I just spotted a couple of dumb math errors on my part (15 + 49 != 74... ). Previously I was overestimating the axe/dagger str's DPS. I edited my OPs and uploaded a new chart with the correct figures (which you can see here).

Amioran wrote...

All good an fine, but I continue to repeat a thing that it's not considered too much.

In DPS calculations is assumed that you hit 100% of the time. I can understand that an estimation to hit rate would be too difficult to do, however this naturally makes a cunning build naturally better since the most blatant inconvenient of high cunning (and not strength or dexterity) is just the fact that you will miss a lot often.

Yeah this is an important point and one that I tried to bring out in my OPs. Keep in mind that one person in the old thread said he had no problem maintaining a 90% hit rate with his lvl 19 cunning rogue, which makes me think that party buffs can close the gap pretty well.

Although I don't know how much defense end-game monsters have, we can at least quantify the gap between the cunning builds and the str/dex builds. Here's how much +attack each of the builds gets from their post-gear stats:

Axe/dagger str: 76 str and 40 dex = +48 attack
Axe/dagger cun: 34 str and 40 dex = +27 attack
Dagger/dagger dex: 34 str and 80 dex = +48 attack
Dagger/dagger cun: 25 str and 48 dex = +26.5 attack

So there's a gap of about 21 attack between the cunning builds and their str/dex counterparts. Pretty bad right? But there are a lot of ways to boost +attack. Heroic Offense gives +15 attack at 50 spellpower (not hard to achieve by level 18). I have Morrigan set to autocast it on me in my current playthrough. It lasts a long time, 20 seconds, so she usually only needs to cast it once or twice per fight--hardly a matter of devoting a mage solely to helping me hit. It's also the first spell in its line, so I'm not wasting many spell points to get it (and Wynne starts with it). Rally/Motivate is another +10 attack, and it's something you might want to pick up for your tank anyway regardless of your rogue build, so you may not be wasting talent points there either.

Of course you can say that the str/dex builds can use these party buffs too and retain their attack advantage over the cunning builds. But attack rating isn't that straightforward. More attack doesn't help you if you already have enough to hit 100% of the time. I would be surprised if the str/dex rogues weren't hitting 100% or close to it while backstabbing even without party buffs. In that case these buffs would help close the gap, not maintain it.



 

[Aldriann]

Double post.

Modifié par Aldriann, 18 novembre 2009 - 09:05 .

[Discobird]

Aldriann wrote...

Is there a limit on how many +crit damage items you can have?

Technically you can equip as many as you want, but the crit/backstab multiplier caps at 2.  Since the base crit multiplier is 1.5, that means the bonus +crit damage is effectively capped at +50% (which is why I didn't use as many +crit damage items as possible in my builds).

[Aldriann]

Discobird wrote...

Aldriann wrote...

Is there a limit on how many +crit damage items you can have?

Technically you can equip as many as you want, but the crit/backstab multiplier caps at 2.  Since the base crit multiplier is 1.5, that means the bonus +crit damage is effectively capped at +50% (which is why I didn't use as many +crit damage items as possible in my builds).

With that said perhaps it's better to offhand Thorn of the Dead Gods instead of Crows Dagger which provides merely 5% crit. Idealy that would be a dps increase since all the damage would be coming from backstab, however that is simply not the case realistically speaking. There are a lot of mobs that are immune to backstabs aswell as sitautions where positioning for backstab would take more effort than to just finishing off the mob in a direct confrontation.

[Discobird]

Aldriann wrote..

With that said perhaps it's better to offhand Thorn of the Dead Gods instead of Crows Dagger which provides merely 5% crit.

Good idea, I hadn't thought of doing that.  That does in fact improve the dagger/dagger cunning build.  I'll go ahead and make the changes to my OPs, thanks.

[Aldriann]

The same method could be put into Warden's Armor with the 5% crit as opposed to Felon's Coat with +6 dex. Albeit it means you can switch to gloves of guile meaning it would come down to +2.5 ap compared to + 6 dex.



What's a real downer though is the inability to obtain Felon's Coat post drake scale armor quests. Wish I had known that prior to doing that, I suppose the only other way is to do another playthrough.

[Rynas]

Absolutely epic post, Discobird. I know how much effort and research you put into this (and preemptively addressing most of the main counter-arguments!), and it's great to see the results. Thanks!

[-XM-]

Disco, where do you get the Thorn of the Dead Gods, +3dmg +6AP from? The best I could find in-game in the Deep Roads was a +3/+3 version. This is also the best out of the three versions listed on Gamebanshee.

One issue I found in practice, especially on white mobs (which is the vast majority of enemies) is that it takes so few hits to kill them that I doubt the different builds kill them with more than 1 hit more or less per kill. Haven't had the chance to test this, I might buy the Axe and respec a few times to see the difference.

I'll add some feedback here now that's I've completed the game. My playstyle is more thief than DPS, so I went the high-dex/medium-cun route myself and Aldriann is right in that I found Rose's Thorn and Red Jenny Seekers to be sufficient for +backstab%. The Felon's Coat had more advantages than is worth using the Warden chest for just an extra 5% crit, at least for my build/playstyle.

For off-hand I used Dead Thaig Shanker, which has the same base stats as the +3/+3 Thorn of the Dead Gods, but the bonuses are: +5 Cunning, +0.5 Armor Penetration, +6 Attack, Interrupts Spellcasting. I used it mostly for attacking mages from the front to interupt if my stuns are not useable. The +5cunning combined with +4 from items (didn't wear the helm because it looks ugly), meant I had 31 in cunning to reach 40. Combined with 3 talents in the deft hands line, this covered unlocking. Used a grandmaster Hale and Dweomer rune on it, which combined with the Spellward amulet and Dwarf bonus meant 50% spell resist and Physical resist was 100 (capped at 100).

Hit rate with high dex went above 95% by late game (around 85-90% when I was levelling other stats and didn't have all the items I wanted). In the last section it went to 100% but that's probably because you fight a lot of low level mobs then.

With the retarded defense and the gear I was using my defense was 160 I think, I'll look it up later. Combined with evasion it makes you very hard to hit. This is a trade-off some (like me) may be happy with: lose DPS, gain defense and utility. Maybe it was because I had only 40 cunning, but riposte didn't seem to last as long as Dirty Fighting? The stun animation was quite short. My understanding was that only the resist check was based on cunning though, so I'll have to test that again. I left it for last and only got it at level 22 and finished at level 23, so I didn't get too much time to test it.

Given the hit rate and defense comments above, it would have been feasible to actually boost cunning to 41 instead of 31, since this gives more dmg per point than dex, due to AP and exploit weakness.

I'll post stats later maybe.

Modifié par -XM-, 18 novembre 2009 - 11:15 .

[Rynas]

-XM- wrote...

Disco, where do you get the Thorn of the Dead Gods, +3dmg +6AP from? The best I could find in-game in the Deep Roads was a +3/+3 version. This is also the best out of the three versions listed on Gamebanshee.

One issue I found in practice, especially on white mobs (which is the vast majority of enemies) is that it takes so few hits to kill them that I doubt the different builds kill them with more than 1 hit more or less per kill. Haven't had the chance to test this, I might buy the Axe and respec a few times to see the difference.

I'll add some feedback here now that's I've completed the game. My playstyle is more thief than DPS, so I went the high-dex/medium-cun route myself and Aldriann is right in that I found Rose's Thorn and Red Jenny Seekers to be sufficient for +backstab%. The Felon's Coat had more advantages than is worth using the Warden chest for just an extra 5% crit, at least for my build/playstyle.

For off-hand I used Dead Thaig Shanker, which has the same base stats as the +3/+3 Thorn of the Dead Gods, but the bonuses are: +5 Cunning, +0.5 Armor Penetration, +6 Attack, Interrupts Spellcasting. I used it mostly for attacking mages from the front to interupt if my stuns are not useable. The +5cunning combined with +4 from items (didn't wear the helm because it looks ugly), meant I had 31 in cunning to reach 40. Combined with 3 talents in the deft hands line, this covered unlocking. Used a grandmaster Hale and Dweomer rune on it, which combined with the Spellward amulet and Dwarf bonus meant 50% spell resist and Physical resist was 100 (capped at 100).

Hit rate with high dex went above 95% by late game (around 85% when I was levelling other stats and didn't have all the items I wanted). In the last section it went to 100% but that's probably because you fight a lot of low level mobs then.

With the retarded defense and the gear I was using my defense was 160 I think, I'll look it up later. Combined with evasion it makes you very hard to hit. This is a trade-off some (like me) may be happy with: lose DPS, gain defense and utility. Maybe it was because I had only 40 cunning, but riposte didn't seem to last as long as Dirty Fighting? The stun animation was quite short. My understanding was that only the resist check was based on cunning though, so I'll have to leave that for last. I only got it at level 22 and finished at level 23, so I didn't get too much time to test it.

Given the hit rate and defense comments above, it would have been feasible to actually boost cunning to 41 instead of 31, since this gives more dmg per point than dex, due to AP and exploit weakness.

I'll post stats later maybe.

Damn it, I KNEW someone was going to let the cat out of the bag...I wanted to post a vid of my dagger/dex rogue soloing a Revenant.  Going to try it naked...my defense at the time (in gear) was only 132.

[Discobird]

Aldriann wrote...

The same method could be put into Warden's Armor with the 5% crit as opposed to Felon's Coat with +6 dex. Albeit it means you can switch to gloves of guile meaning it would come down to +2.5 ap compared to + 6 dex.

Wait, Gloves of Guile are only +2.5AP, not +5? Grrr. Gamebanshee agrees with you. That's what I get for trusting the Prima guide... With that in mind, the axe/dagger str build can replace Gloves of Guile with Red Jenny Seekers and use the Blood Dragon Plate for better DPS.

For dagger/dagger dex, Felon's Coat does indeed improve DPS more than Warden Commander armor (and more than Gloves of Guile). Thanks again for the suggestions, it seems I've been overvaluing +crit damage gear.

I'll go ahead and make these changes to my OP.

[EDIT] updated OP. The impact on DPS is small.

What's a real downer though is the inability to obtain Felon's Coat post drake scale armor quests. Wish I had known that prior to doing that, I suppose the only other way is to do another playthrough.

Thanks for the warning. I hadn't paid attention to that but it's good to know.

Modifié par Discobird, 18 novembre 2009 - 11:27 .

[Eddie Fynn]

Has anyone brought up ranger? If you have a pet also beating up on someone, doesn't that count towards your dps calculations. Personally, I think ranger trumps assassin any day of the week dps wise if you include the creature's damage into your own calculations.

[Love-Buzz]

Discobird wrote...

For dagger/dagger dex, Felon's Coat does indeed improve DPS more than Warden Commander armor (and more than Gloves of Guile). Thanks again for the suggestions, it seems I've been overvaluing +crit damage gear.

I'll go ahead and make these changes to my OP.

[EDIT] updated OP. The impact on DPS is small.

The OP currently show this:

C: DAGGER/DAGGER DEX

This rogue will have pre-gear stats of:

Str: 15 + 11 = 26 (to wear Warden Commander's Armor ASAP)
Dex: 23 + 47 = 70
Cun: 20 + 2 = 22

* Mainhand: Rose's Thorn (6.4 base damage, 8.4 AP, +2 dex, +3 damage, +30% crit damage)
* Offhand: Thorn of the Dead Gods (+3 damage, +6 AP)
* Helm: Helm of Honnleath (+2 str, +2 dex, +2 cun)
* Chest: Felon's Coat (+6 dex)
* Gloves: Red Jenny Seekers (+15% crit damage)
* Boots: Cadash Stompers (+2 dex)
* Belt: Andruil's Blessing (+2 str, +2 dex, +2 cun)
* Amulet: Heart of Witherfang (+1 str)
* Ring: Key to the City (+2 str, +2 dex, +2 cun)
* Ring: Harvest Festival Ring (+2 str, +2 dex)

Final stats including gear:
Str: 26 + 8 = 34
Dex: 70 + 18 = 88
Cun: 22 + 6 = 28

Have you recalculated the DPS to reflect that you only need 20 str for Felon's Coat?

[Discobird]

Thanks for the catch! No, I forgot to do that.  I'll go ahead and fix it but it doesn't change DPS for that build.

Modifié par Discobird, 19 novembre 2009 - 12:48 .

[Love-Buzz]

Oh, I thought with the dex hotfix, the extra dex would have bumped dagger damage up a little. Does dex not give any damage to daggers at all? If it does, how does Lethality factor into the damage calculate if a) dex>cun and cun>dex?

I'm curious because I want to make a dagger/dagger build with >22 cun for more damage and >40 dex for more attack/defense, but I'm not sure what ratio I want the two in.

Modifié par Love-Buzz, 19 novembre 2009 - 01:04 .

[Discobird]

After the hotfix, daggers get equal damage from str and dex. So shifting attribute points around fbetween str and dex doesn't affect DPS.

[Love-Buzz]

Discobird wrote...

After the hotfix, daggers get equal damage from str and dex. So shifting attribute points around fbetween str and dex doesn't affect DPS.

Ahhhhhhhh........... lol.

So if you take Lethality for a dagger/dagger build with cun > str, your dagger damage becomes 50% dex and 50% cun?  I'm just wondering how 20ish str, 60+ dex, 60 cun char would fair, as the cun build seem really attractive, but so does the uber defense and better attack of dex builds.

Modifié par Love-Buzz, 19 novembre 2009 - 01:16 .

[Scosher]

Thanks for this, Discobird. Few questions:



1) Do you know the exact DPS of ranger pets? Would it outweight the benefits of Duelist spec? (most of Duelist's talents don't really benefit the backstabbing rogue)



2) What runes do you suggest for your offhand. Used to have elemental damage but since backstabs only consider MH, they're practically worthless. Simple resists (spell resist or physical resists) are effective, but what about the other rune bonuses -- +dmg to undead/darkspawn, or chance to slow/paralyze. Do these apply to your MH even though they are enchanted on your OH?

[Discobird]

About pets: pets very likely add more DPS than Duelist, but I haven't figured out how to calculate their DPS yet. Pets are a lot more complicated than any other given talent.

[B]ut what about the other rune bonuses -- +dmg to undead/darkspawn, or chance to slow/paralyze. Do these apply to your MH even though they are enchanted on your OH?

I'm 99% sure they don't since they are on-hit effects like elemental runes, but I haven't tested it yet.

[Discobird]

Love-Buzz wrote...
So if you take Lethality for a dagger/dagger build with cun > str, your dagger damage becomes 50% dex and 50% cun? 

Yup

I'm just wondering how 20ish str, 60+ dex, 60 cun char would fair, as the cun build seem really attractive, but so does the uber defense and better attack of dex builds.

I think it would do just fine, it would pretty much be midway between the dex-pumping and cunning-pumping rogues in terms of DPS, defense, and attack. I'm not sure 60 dex is enough to let you dodge most attacks though.

[Love-Buzz]

Discobird wrote...
I think it would do just fine, it would pretty much be midway between the dex-pumping and cunning-pumping rogues in terms of DPS, defense, and attack. I'm not sure 60 dex is enough to let you dodge most attacks though.

Cool.  Thanks for all your work on this!