612 réponses à ce sujet

[Discobird]

-XM- wrote...

Disco, where do you get the Thorn of the Dead Gods, +3dmg +6AP from? The best I could find in-game in the Deep Roads was a +3/+3 version. This is also the best out of the three versions listed on Gamebanshee.

You can find it in a locked chest in the basement of... the Prima guide.   Sounds like yet another inaccuracy, thanks for bringing it up.  I'll go fix my OPs (I don't think this will affect gear choices though).

Really appreciate you posting your experiences, that's the kind of practical stuff the DPS figures can never tell you. As you say, it sounds like your hit rate and defense were high enough that you could've shuffled a few points from dex to cunning without hurting yourself.  Seems like some hybrid of the dagger/dagger dex and dagger/dagger cunning builds might be the best "balanced" build out there.

As for Riposte, I checked the code and it should have the same stun length as Dirty Fighting (4s).  Neither of their stun lengths are affected by cunning.

[AKOdin]

Just wanted to say thanks- really nice to see the mechanics and formulas that you dug up!

[hexaligned]

Maybe not the place for this, but has anybody played around with a high level backstabber using two handed weps? I was bored the other day and started one up for **** and giggles, He was backstabbing for 50-60 damage right out of Lothering.  Level 7ish, I put almost every point into str, with a random one here and there into dex.  It seemed like pretty high damage for that point in the game, I got bored jsut watching him auto attack crit though.  (that and the BOOM sound effect for two hander crits gets old fast)

Modifié par relhart, 19 novembre 2009 - 09:08 .

[surrealitycheck]

I think you should have an addendum about elemental weapon buffs from mages.



I would have thought those would help dagger/dagger builds more than axe/dagger, as they are static per hit benefits.

[MBirkhofer]

relhart wrote...

Maybe not the place for this, but has anybody played around with a high level backstabber using two handed weps? I was bored the other day and started one up for **** and giggles, He was backstabbing for 50-60 damage right out of Lothering.  Level 7ish, I put almost every point into str, with a random one here and there into dex.  It seemed like pretty high damage for that point in the game, I got bored jsut watching him auto attack crit though.  (that and the BOOM sound effect for two hander crits gets old fast)

I didn't even know you could.
The slower attack speed and inablity to get a +30%backstab damage bonus probably makes it not as effective.

[DMSlicer]

Cheers for this Discobird!!

I'm currently on my first playthrough trying to learn the ropes, and your mechanics section in particular has really helped out.

One question: It looks like stats earned from gear seem to contribute towards prerequisites for gear. If this is the case and you can "rebalance" stats via the levelup bonuses, why focus on, say, solely raising cunning and dexterity for the Dagger/Dagger Cunning build instead of focussing mainly on Cunning + Dexterity but working towards raising the other attributes too (to offset the increases against your raw stats and therefore maximise the possible bonus from your "level up" points)?

Example: If you took the Harvest Festival Ring (+2 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Attack) instead of the Dusk ring (+3 Cunning -1 STR) you could free up another two Dex and three Strength from your "level up stats" to go into Cunning, and gain a slight Accuracy bonus (presumably +Accuracy is fairly important to a Cunning Build).

This would mean you'd have a total of +8 Str from gear. Helm of Honleath adds +2 of this and has a requirement of 20 str to wear it, so (if gear stats contribute to prerequisites) to wear all the gear you'd need a minimum raw Str from stats of 14 - meaning 6 str could be diverted into Cunning. I assume this would hold true for diverting Dex and other stats into Cunning as well.

The only other thing I noticed is said Cunning Dagger build's Offhand weapon - it seems that "Thorn of the Dead Gods" (+3 damage, +3 AP) could be swapped with "Dead Thaig Shanker" (+5 Cunning, +0.5 AP, +6 Attack, Interrupts Spellcasting, from the Stone Prisoner DLC) for another boost (trades a bit of raw damage for extra damage from Cunning, plus a lot more accuracy)? I haven't gotten said dagger yet, but it's in the Gamebanshee lists as being in a Chest in 'The Deep Roads'.

The only Amulet I found that would be anyway decent would be "The Spellward" (+5 Willpower, +30% Spell Resistance, +10% Dodge) which would contribute towards Defence and Stamina, possibly allowing you to free up any points you put into Willpower and redirect them into Cunning/Dex.

If gear doesn't contribute towards gear/talent stat prerequisites then this stuff is probably all mostly just down to personal preference... to this end I'm currently looking at a Cunning/Dex Ranger build as it seems the Wolf pet's extra damage contribution outweighs the damage increases I'd get from going Assassin/Bard (at least on my current difficulty!!).

Thanks again!

[tranj84cl]

DMSlicer wrote...
*Snip*

I'd start by saying that it's a preference.  Stat bonuses appear to help fulfill the requirements, but as in any game where this is the case, I'd prefer to have hard points to meet the requirements.  I'm not sure what order the game checks your equipment, but I'd hate it if my armor or weapon was unequipped through some game quirk and I didn't meet the requirements.

If you were truly min/maxing, it would be plausible to not "waste" points, but let me tell you that it makes your gameplay that much harder.  You won't be able to afford most of the gear until mid/late game and to play a completely gimped character for that long is simply not fun. 

As for the amulet choice, there really aren't any willpower points being spent, so you're going to be picking whatever is better for your needs, be it defense or stamina, etc...

[xIc3x]

I just wanted to say thanks for all the work getting this kinda info. I read your other topic on the old forums a bunch too

[Dakkai]

Not that it will make a big difference but why don't you include weapon damage ranges in your calculations? Do backstabs/crits only work off base damage?
And your Axe/Dagger str build doesn't add up for me. The final str value is off by 4 but it looks like you used the correct str value anyway and instead used 2.0 crit modifer instead of 1.9.
Nice work though!

Modifié par Dakkai, 20 novembre 2009 - 12:58 .

[Discobird]

DMSlicer wrote...
One question: It looks like stats earned from gear seem to contribute towards prerequisites for gear. If this is the case and you can "rebalance" stats via the levelup bonuses, why focus on, say, solely raising cunning and dexterity for the Dagger/Dagger Cunning build instead of focussing mainly on Cunning + Dexterity but working towards raising the other attributes too (to offset the increases against your raw stats and therefore maximise the possible bonus from your "level up" points)?

Good question. The answer is specific to each build. To take your example with the Harvest Festival ring, I don't want to make assumptions about how soon the player visits Honnleath, or in what order he obtains the other gear that grants +str, so I simply assume that T7 light armor will be available and desirable sooner than the +str gear. This may not be entirely realistic for all players but there you go. If you visit Honnleath early you can indeed save four points in str and put them in cunning instead. That raises the dagger/dagger cunning's DPS by about 1.3 points.

As for dex, none of these builds are raising dex to meet gear requirements. Rather they raise dex to get Momentum ASAP (it's that good). So +dex gear does not free up attribute points that could've gone to cun or str.

The only other thing I noticed is said Cunning Dagger build's Offhand weapon - it seems that "Thorn of the Dead Gods" (+3 damage, +3 AP) could be swapped with "Dead Thaig Shanker" (+5 Cunning, +0.5 AP, +6 Attack, Interrupts Spellcasting, from the Stone Prisoner DLC) for another boost (trades a bit of raw damage for extra damage from Cunning, plus a lot more accuracy)?

Dead Thaig Shanker is a great dagger and I'd thought about doing that, but the build with Thorn of the Dead Gods is about 4 DPS higher. My general philosophy with this number-crunching has been to present the DPS-maximizing builds so people have a baseline from which they can modify the gear and stats to their own liking. The value of +6 attack and spellcasting interruption is difficult to quantify and can vary a lot from person to person. For example, player X may have enough +attack buffs already from his party and enough ways to deal with mages (Morrigan has mana clash or something) that the Shanker doesn't give much benefit. The same is not quite as true with DPS.  All else being equal, X extra DPS is always valuable by about the same amount to everyone , or at least it's easier to quantify in a way that's meaningful to everyone.

That's also why I didn't include the Spellward as an amulet suggestion (besides the fact that none of the builds I've suggested put any points in Willpower so it doesn't free up any points).

If gear doesn't contribute towards gear/talent stat prerequisites then this stuff is probably all mostly just down to personal preference... to this end I'm currently looking at a Cunning/Dex Ranger build as it seems the Wolf pet's extra damage contribution outweighs the damage increases I'd get from going Assassin/Bard (at least on my current difficulty!!).

Yeah it probably does. I would love to quantify pet DPS but it's proving tricky to figure out.

Thanks for your input!

Modifié par Discobird, 20 novembre 2009 - 02:34 .

[Discobird]

Dakkai wrote...

Not that it will make a big difference but why don't you include weapon damage ranges in your calculations? Do backstabs/crits only work off base damage?
And your Axe/Dagger str build doesn't add up for me. The final str value is off by 4 but it looks like you used the correct str value anyway and instead used 2.0 crit modifer instead of 1.9.
Nice work though!

I haven't included weapon damage ranges because I'm not sure how those scale (if at all) with weapon tier.  They do get multiplied by the crit/backstab multiplier because they function as a random addition to the base damage.  But even so  the DPS difference is pretty small (no more than about 2.5 points of damage/hit if the damage range scales with tier) and would not affect the big picture.  Thanks for pointing this out though.

[EDIT] Woops you're totally right about the axe/dagger str gear.  Sometimes I make a change in my spreadsheet and forget to go back and edit my gear post.  Thanks a lot for catching that one.  I'll go fix it and upload another chart now.

Modifié par Discobird, 20 novembre 2009 - 02:42 .

[T0rin3]

On the topic of specializations for the Dagger/Dagger Cun build (or any Cun build for that matter), Assassin is pretty much required for Exploit Weakness, but on the topic of Bard vs Duelist, what to do? You can theoretically get Song of Courage from a party member, and not have to sacrifice Duelist (which I do think the Cun rogue needs), but is it really viable to play a Cun rogue and have another rogue in the party? I'm not sure it is, unless you just want to dump a mage, which seems a bit silly.

[boba1974]

Amioran wrote...

All good an fine, but I continue to repeat a thing that it's not considered too much.

In DPS calculations is assumed that you hit 100% of the time. I can understand that an estimation to hit rate would be too difficult to do, however this naturally makes a cunning build naturally better since the most blatant inconvenient of high cunning (and not strength or dexterity) is just the fact that you will miss a lot often.

Dexterity and Strength both gives +attack and +damage. Cunning only gives +damage. Sure, there are buffs that can overcome it some way, but will never overcome the gap if it is too large. This is not an AW build where you have Miasma and Combat Magic to overcome the missing +attack.

Considering this point an high cunning build lose DPS, actually, since you will miss a lot of times. For example on how large the miss chance counts in DPS values try to run an AW without Miasma and Combat Magic. Without Dexterity no matter the damage he can do, he will miss almost all the time. Same thing can happen to an high cunning build with only 28 dexterity and 20 strength.

Or you have a mage devoted solely on making your rogue to hit or your high cunning rogue will lag much behind and high dexterity (or strength) one.

As far as i can tell the miss rate with a CUN Rogue is not nearly as high as people make it out to be, you definitely don't miss "a lot of times".  On top of that both The Tainted Blade and Exploit Weakness do bonus damage based on your CUN skill, and there are no skills for DEX/STR that make up that difference.


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[T0rin3]

The Cun rogue doesn't miss a lot when backstabbing, because of the flanking bonus to attack, but front-facing attacks seem to be a different story for the unbuffed Cun rogue.



But, there are a number of ways to close this gap, Dueling/Heroic Offensive/Song of Courage are the 3 easiest that come to mind.



But really, if you rogue is not backstabbing and has a Cun build, then you probably aren't doing it right, because a lot of the focus of the Cun rogue is boosting backstab damage with Exploit Weakness. Combat/Master Stealth pretty much makes it so you should be backstabbing all the time assuming you have any form of Warrior in your group.

[Eldric12]

This has been an very informative post and I was hoping I could get a quick opinion on a Rogue.



I am trying to decide what type of rogue to play, (definitely DW). I enjoy min/maxing and going for top damage, but I also can't stand to not open locks and chests. I was also thinking of trying to play as much of the game as I can without other party members. Is my general assessment below accurate based on the information in these posts?



1.) If I want to play a rogue without other party members, my best choice would be one of the following:



-- DEX based dagger/dagger rogue (dex for high def)

-- STR based axe/dagger rogue (instead of dex go str for higher armor)???



2.) If I want my rogue to be able to handle locks, I'll want one of the following:



-- DEX based dagger/dagger rogue with come cunning

-- CUN based dagger/dagger rogue



Are those accurate statements? What build would you recommend for focusing most efforts on one Rogue, with the requirements being that he/she can handle locks fine, do a ton of damage, and tank. If I were to take out the tanking portion how would that change your recommendation?



How important is going with the all Dex build if I plan on going solo?



Thanks for your help, it is greatly appreciated.

[Yenkaz]

Eldric12 wrote...

This has been an very informative post and I was hoping I could get a quick opinion on a Rogue.

I am trying to decide what type of rogue to play, (definitely DW). I enjoy min/maxing and going for top damage, but I also can't stand to not open locks and chests. I was also thinking of trying to play as much of the game as I can without other party members. Is my general assessment below accurate based on the information in these posts?

1.) If I want to play a rogue without other party members, my best choice would be one of the following:

-- DEX based dagger/dagger rogue (dex for high def)
-- STR based axe/dagger rogue (instead of dex go str for higher armor)???

2.) If I want my rogue to be able to handle locks, I'll want one of the following:

-- DEX based dagger/dagger rogue with come cunning
-- CUN based dagger/dagger rogue

Are those accurate statements? What build would you recommend for focusing most efforts on one Rogue, with the requirements being that he/she can handle locks fine, do a ton of damage, and tank. If I were to take out the tanking portion how would that change your recommendation?

How important is going with the all Dex build if I plan on going solo?

Thanks for your help, it is greatly appreciated.

In short:

Dexterity Daggers:
+ Higher chance of hitting the enemy
+ higher chance of evading attacks
+ Can use a bow well if needed
- Lowest dps
- Needs to spend talents on device mastery

Cunning Daggers
+ more dps
+ Needs not to spend on device master(but might want to or you wont be able to open some chests until late game)
- Higher chance of getting hit
- Needs to spend 3 talents for Lethality.

Strength Axe+Dagger:
+ More dps
+ Less damage taken/hit
+ Higher chance of hitting the enemy
- Needs to spend talents on device mastery
- Higher chance of getting hit

Cunning Axe+Dagger
+ Highest dps
+ Needs not to spend on device master(but might want to or you wont be able to open some chests until late game)
- Higher chance of getting hit
- Needs to spend 3 talents for Lethality.
- More damage taken from the enemy

What's best really depends on your playstyle. although personally I think it's near impossible to solo the game as a rogue in the end anyway.

Modifié par Yenkaz, 20 novembre 2009 - 11:49 .

[Discobird]

T0rin3 wrote...
 You can theoretically get Song of Courage from a party member, and not have to sacrifice Duelist (which I do think the Cun rogue needs), but is it really viable to play a Cun rogue and have another rogue in the party? I'm not sure it is, unless you just want to dump a mage, which seems a bit silly.

Two cunning rogues?  That would be a melee heavy team but I don't see why it wouldn't be viable.  It might be hard or annoying to maneuver both rogues into backstab positions on the same target, so you'd probably want them attacking different ones.

I don't know if I would pick up another rogue solely for Song of Courage though.  Rally + Motivate from your tank will give roughly the same benefit to your chance to hit.  So will Miasma.

[Discobird]

Lemonio wrote...

after reading your post i have a question
is there any reason to duel wield as rogue if the offhand weapon slows down your attack speed
or do offhand daggers not slow it down
because i expect that my rogue will be mostly backstabbing and i don't want my backstabs to be slower

A dagger in your offhand will never slow you down

[Spyndel]

Thanks for all the work you put into this post.

It was certainly quite a lot of effort, and it is fairly invaluable information.

Modifié par Spyndel, 21 novembre 2009 - 12:11 .

[Discobird]

 Updated with two changes:

(1) Accounted for weapon damage range in my formula. This is a random factor that's applied to the weapon's base damage. Thanks Dakkai for reminding me to add this.

(2) Added a new build, longsword/dagger str, using Starfang and Rose's Thorn.  Turns out to have around the same DPS as the axe/dagger str build (a couple points higher in fact).  Gear and stats below:

E: LONGSWORD/DAGGER STR
This rogue will have pre-gear stats of:

Str: 15 + 49 = 64
Dex: 23 + 9 = 32
Cun: 20 + 2 = 22

* Mainhand: Starfang (11.9 base damage, 4.2 AP, +3 damage, +2.5 AP)
* Offhand: Rose's Thorn (+30% crit damage, +3 damage)
* Helm: Helm of Honnleath (+2 str, +2 cun)
* Chest: Blood Dragon plate (+3 str)
* Gloves: Red Jenny Seekers (+15% crit damage)
* Boots: nothing improves DPS
* Belt: Andruil's Blessing (+2 str, +2 cun)
* Amulet: Heart of Witherfang (+1 str)
* Ring: Key to the City (+2 str, +2 cun)
* Ring: Dawn Ring (+4 str, -1 cun)

Final stats including gear:
Str: 64 + 14 = 78
Cun: 22 +5 = 27

Here's the new DPS chart: http://i45.tinypic.com/2mph93p.jpg

Modifié par Discobird, 21 novembre 2009 - 02:42 .

[Spyndel]

Discobird wrote...



(2) Added a new build, longsword/dagger str, using Starfang and Rose's Thorn.  Turns out to have around the same DPS as the axe/dagger str build (a couple points higher in fact).  Gear and stats below:

I thought Longswords were too slow to be in the running for these builds?  Is there something special about Sratfang that negates this, or are longswords  in fact as viable as axes?

[T0rin3]

Discobird wrote...

(2) Added a new build, longsword/dagger str, using Starfang and Rose's Thorn.  Turns out to have around the same DPS as the axe/dagger str build (a couple points higher in fact). 

Hah, that's the build I played my Str rogue as, I couldn't stand watching him swing an axe.

[Discobird]

Spyndel wrote...

I thought Longswords were too slow to be in the running for these builds?  Is there something special about Sratfang that negates this, or are longswords  in fact as viable as axes?

Longswords are the same speed as axes actually.  We originally didn't analyze longswords in the old thread because we thought the axe's 1.1x str multiplier would outweigh whatever advantage longswords might have.  But when I did the math it turned out Starfang was badass enough to compete with Veshialle.

[SpideyKnight]

Since the dps chart puts longsword/dagger STR over Axe/dagger STR could one infer that longsword/dagger CUN is also above Axe/dagger CUN?