612 réponses à ce sujet

[T0rin3]

I couldn't imagine it wouldn't be, there is no fundamental difference between the two weapons that would make the sword worse in a Cun build.

[Discobird]

SpideyKnight wrote...

Since the dps chart puts longsword/dagger STR over Axe/dagger STR could one infer that longsword/dagger CUN is also above Axe/dagger CUN?

Whoops I have no idea why I didn't even think to include longsword/dagger cun. Fixed. Turns out it's just a hair above axe/dagger cun (the difference is less than 1 point).



[EDIT] y helo thar img tag

Modifié par Discobird, 21 novembre 2009 - 04:30 .

[GilgameshXD]

I knew it! I've been running a str rogue, and got starfang early. I got Rose's first and planned for Veshialle later on. When I got it I saw no noticeable increase in dps on the character screen or in practice but in fact felt I was doing less damage, so I stuck with starfang (respeced sten got the axe). Good to know I wasn't fooling myself.

[T0rin3]

Guess there is no reason for me to go dagger/dagger on this Cun rogue now, I wasn't terribly looking forward to it.

Edit: Unless of course I go Bard, in which case the extra Cun would probably be worth it.

Modifié par T0rin3, 21 novembre 2009 - 04:55 .

[egervari]

Fantastic research! Love it to death. Good job and I just want to commend you for all the fantastic work you've done.

I did some of this work myself, and I found cunning to be the best, just because coercion and other related abilities worked well. I found that I hardly ever missed in a fight and the single-target dps was great. 

I didn't think the str builds were as good, but it seems they are comparable. Good research.

[SpideyKnight]

Interesting that CUN doesn't have the same parity between axe and longsword builds, even if it is minimal at best with STR you would think it would have the same minimal advantage with CUN, but it doesn't, that is interesting.

[tranj84cl]

T0rin3 wrote...

Guess there is no reason for me to go dagger/dagger on this Cun rogue now, I wasn't terribly looking forward to it.

Edit: Unless of course I go Bard, in which case the extra Cun would probably be worth it.

Don't fall to the dark side with Starfang! I'm sticking with dual daggers because of style points, and the slight advantage in armor piercing.

[Chesta12345]

I don't know about that comment with backstabs only occuring with the main hand. For examplke, put a fire rune on your main and an ice rune on your off hand and start backstabbing. Fire and ice damage will alternate. Also, dpeending on your weapons, I've noticed discrepanices from every other attack.



I think it's just that the backstab animation makes it appear that only the main hand is attacking but damage calculations may be otherwise.

[Timortis]

So the +damage on Thorn of the Dead Gods increases DPS more than the +% Crit damage on Crow for double dagger builds?

[Discobird]

Chesta12345 wrote...

I don't know about that comment with backstabs only occuring with the main hand. For examplke, put a fire rune on your main and an ice rune on your off hand and start backstabbing. Fire and ice damage will alternate.  

I've done exactly that and I only see the fire rune trigger.  That's what made me think backstabs only use the main hand in the first place.

[Discobird]

Timortis wrote...

So the +damage on Thorn of the Dead Gods increases DPS more than the +% Crit damage on Crow for double dagger builds?

Yeah, because +crit damage is capped at +50%.  Turns out you get the most DPS by avoiding the cap by replacing Crow Dagger than replacing other +crit damage sources (Warden Commander armor and Red Jenny Seekers).

[T0rin3]

tranj84cl wrote...

Don't fall to the dark side with Starfang! I'm sticking with dual daggers because of style points, and the slight advantage in armor piercing.

If you run Telekinetic Weapons, a small advantage in AP is pretty much worthless... I'll take DPS anyday.

[Ylaguardia]

Great job, Discobird! I really appreciate the effort you're putting in this (mostly because I love this kind of theorycraft myself).

Anyway, someone made an interesting consideration before, in this same topic, regarding pets and their damage... and if the DPS of ranger pets, when factored in as the rogue's own damage, would be a viable choice over Duelist.

Well, I've never played a ranger myself throughout the entire game, but I was messing with that "enableconsole" feature yesterday out of curiosity about how much damage could a pet actually deal.

I have to say that I was utterly surprised when I saw a lvl 18 spider (summoned by a lvl 20 Leliana with that last ranger tier talent) doing damage comparable to a warrior. It was hitting for about 50-60 dmg each hit with better attack speed than a two handed warrior.. and if you factor in the damage over time inflicted by the spider's poison spit skill (which was about 12-16 dmg per tick), the only conclusion I could come up with is that a Rogue/Ranger, by far, is the best single target DPS class in  the entire game (if you calculate the pet's damage as your own, obviously). I would even say that a Ranger, on the top of laughing at the face of a duelist damage-wise,  would be superior to an Assassin, too, in every way possible (DPS and versatility wise).

So... seeing that I don't know how to play around with the game's code to search for pets statistics and mechanics, I would be really grateful if someone did that, cause this is a much underrated specialization (including by myself, until yesterday), and it could probably end up being the new cookie cutter DPS rogue build.

Thank you again, Discobird and the others who contributed to this awsome post.

PS: I apologize if I couldn't make myself clear, but English is not my motherlanguage (I'm brazilian), so tell me if I need to rewrite anything.

Modifié par Ylaguardia, 21 novembre 2009 - 05:19 .

[Discobird]

Thanks Ylaguardia! Your English is perfect. I didn't know high level pets did *that* much DPS. Sounds like Assassin/Ranger is indeed probably stronger than Assassin/Duelist after all.



Hmm, I think this tends to improve the str/dex builds more than the cunning builds since if the cunning builds go assassin/ranger they will no longer be able to improve their attack rating through Dueling or Song of Courage. Very interesting.

[Discobird]

SpideyKnight wrote...

Interesting that CUN doesn't have the same parity between axe and longsword builds, even if it is minimal at best with STR you would think it would have the same minimal advantage with CUN, but it doesn't, that is interesting.

You know, I looked into the axe/dagger str build again and it turns out I can improve it by replacing the Gloves of Guile (+2.5 AP) with Red Jenny Seekers (+15% crit. damage). Gloves of Guile were better before my latest fix to the damage formula, but now the +crit damage overtakes it even taking the +crit damage cap into account. This raises the axe/dagger str DPS by a few points.

Thanks for pointing this out!

New chart:

Modifié par Discobird, 21 novembre 2009 - 05:17 .

[Ylaguardia]

Discobird wrote...

Thanks Ylaguardia! Your English is perfect. I didn't know high level pets did *that* much DPS. Sounds like Assassin/Ranger is indeed probably stronger than Assassin/Duelist after all.

Hmm, I think this tends to improve the str/dex builds more than the cunning builds since if the cunning builds go assassin/ranger they will no longer be able to improve their attack rating through Dueling or Song of Courage. Very interesting.

Yes, I think that STR oriented builds would be a better choice for Rangers too. In fact, I was thinking of taking the ranger specialization FIRST (at lvl 7, taking Assassin later, at 14), since with low CUN exploit weakness' dmg would not be superior to your pet's (I don't know, however, how much additional dmg mark of death provides.. so I'll have to test first which one I'll choose).

Oh, and about attack/defense, by the way, those pets have skills and tactics slots too, so they could actually make up for the duelist loss of attack by using skills of their own to offset this. E.g: the Wolf has the growl skill, which is an AoE debuff of defense against your foes (and get an AoE stun later)... so you can set it growl automatically at your enemies, in a very similar way that you said you do with your mage casting heroic offense. Later, with the Spider, you can set it to use the web skill to paralyze your opponent etc... I mean, the general idea is that your pets' skills could help you achieve better hit rate either by defense debuffs, paralyze skills, stuns etc.

I have to say that I've never been a fan of pets myself, but I started a STR oriented Ranger/Assassin today on Hard Mode to see what I can get.

Modifié par Ylaguardia, 21 novembre 2009 - 05:45 .

[-XM-]

Chesta12345 wrote...

I don't know about that comment with backstabs only occuring with the main hand. For examplke, put a fire rune on your main and an ice rune on your off hand and start backstabbing. Fire and ice damage will alternate. Also, dpeending on your weapons, I've noticed discrepanices from every other attack.

I think it's just that the backstab animation makes it appear that only the main hand is attacking but damage calculations may be otherwise.

I have noticed weird things.

At times it seems only the main-hand is backstabbing (rune effects on off-hand never apply and damage is consistent if I use a high-dmg/low-dmg set of weapons). At other times, it is clear that both hands are alternating and I am in fact backstabbing. I'll have to test it out to see whether I am going insane or it's another weird buggy effect when some combination of skills/gear are used or not used.

[velmyn]

Some very nice work...It's a pity that longsword/dagger is as good as it is...since it pretty much relies on Starfang being overpowered. (Highest base damage +additional damage, not to mention higher armor pen than Veshialle - on a SWORD no less)



On a side note, do maces fall far behind? I realize that they are slow, but in WoW mace spec rogues were all popular for a while in pvp so I was wondering if I could try it in DAO for flavor without hurting dps too drastically.

[Discobird]

-XM- wrote...
At times it seems only the main-hand is backstabbing (rune effects on off-hand never apply and damage is consistent if I use a high-dmg/low-dmg set of weapons). At other times, it is clear that both hands are alternating and I am in fact backstabbing. I'll have to test it out to see whether I am going insane or it's another weird buggy effect when some combination of skills/gear are used or not used.

I've noticed that sometimes I get frontal attacks even when I"m flanking.  The animation is the same as a frontal attack, the hands alternate, and the attacks aren't autocrits.  No amount of maneuvering will fix this.  I chalk it up to enemies having random backstab immunity  can't think of a better explanation than this.

[Timortis]

Discobird wrote...
Yeah, because +crit damage is capped at +50%.  Turns out you get the most DPS by avoiding the cap by replacing Crow Dagger than replacing other +crit damage sources (Warden Commander armor and Red Jenny Seekers).

Thanks, I didn't know about the cap. So what's crit damage, 150% of normal, with items capped at 200%?

[plecha]

Nice thread!



Question regarding the chart: what's 30 Armor worth ingame? I mean which enemies can i expect to have 30 Armor (or possibly more)? The thing being that cunning daggers start to take the lead with higher armor values (which is expected of course). Anyone got any numbers on say a Revenants armor value or so?

[tranj84cl]

plecha wrote...

Nice thread!

Question regarding the chart: what's 30 Armor worth ingame? I mean which enemies can i expect to have 30 Armor (or possibly more)? The thing being that cunning daggers start to take the lead with higher armor values (which is expected of course). Anyone got any numbers on say a Revenants armor value or so?

Enemies scale, and as of right now, I don't think anyone knows who has what armor.  No one knows where to find who has what armor in the code yet.

[T0rin3]

I'm pretty much convinced that Backstabs alternate between the main hand and off hand, I see a too steady pattern of higher damage, lower damage, higher damage, lower damage... when using longsword/dagger. They are regularly something like 10-15 points of damage different from each other.

[plecha]

tranj84cl wrote...

plecha wrote...

Nice thread!

Question regarding the chart: what's 30 Armor worth ingame? I mean which enemies can i expect to have 30 Armor (or possibly more)? The thing being that cunning daggers start to take the lead with higher armor values (which is expected of course). Anyone got any numbers on say a Revenants armor value or so?

Enemies scale, and as of right now, I don't think anyone knows who has what armor.  No one knows where to find who has what armor in the code yet.

Yes they scale, sure. The calculations were done on a certain level however (16 or 18 or so, right?).
What i was trying to, well, 'guess' is that maybe against some of the tougher enemies - assuming they may have more armor - the dagger builds may start to lead dps-ish. if only by a small amount at 30 armor. Since noone knows any real numbers, however, we won't know for now if 30 is much or not much or even outrageous.