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[DragoonKain3]

I was thinking that as well, then I remember that even with just Andruil's Blessing or Felon's Coat, you have offset Momentum already and can run it indefinitely.



So thats 150 stam for your pets, plus 60 stam for momentum. As long as your overall stam >210 to pay for upkeep for three pets or >160 for two pets, the STR rogue shouldn't have anything to worry about stamina.

[-XM-]

Afaik, you can only have one pet at a time. And usually you'll have 2 sustained talents (tainted blade being situational, sometimes you can't afford the hp drain) running: momentum and either dueling, a pet or song of courage, unless you are not using assassin, which has no sustained abilities. So if you are going ranger, you'll sustain a pet instead of dueling, no major difference in terms of stamina.

Modifié par -XM-, 21 novembre 2009 - 11:19 .

[T0rin3]

Wade's Superior Dragonskin Armor is great for sustainables, it has very low fatigue to begin with (like 13%?) and gives -25% fatigue for the set. 34 Str required too, so not much of a stretch for the Axe/Dagger or Sword/Dagger Cun rogue.

[T0rin3]

Discobird wrote...

-XM- wrote...
At times it seems only the main-hand is backstabbing (rune effects on off-hand never apply and damage is consistent if I use a high-dmg/low-dmg set of weapons). At other times, it is clear that both hands are alternating and I am in fact backstabbing. I'll have to test it out to see whether I am going insane or it's another weird buggy effect when some combination of skills/gear are used or not used.

I've noticed that sometimes I get frontal attacks even when I"m flanking.  The animation is the same as a frontal attack, the hands alternate, and the attacks aren't autocrits.  No amount of maneuvering will fix this.  I chalk it up to enemies having random backstab immunity  can't think of a better explanation than this.

I don't know if it's random, but there are definitely some enemies that have backstab immunity... coming out of stealth, I find some enemies that I will not backstab, regardless to which side of them Im standing on when I attack from stealth. And it's not just the animation either, the damage just isn't critical/backstab damage. So far I can't see any kind of pattern as to which enemies they are, but since I started paying attention to this phenomenon, I've noticed that it is definitely there.

[Discobird]

OK guys, BIG UPDATE.  It looks like backstabbing DOES alternate between main hand and offhand, despite the fact that the main hand rune triggers on every backstab and the offhand rune never does. I don't know why the runes behave as they do. I can only presume this is a bug.

I ran a test with longsword/dagger and dagger/longsword setups, doing 20 backstabs with each and recording the damage. Long story short, the damage alternated in just the way and magnitude you would expect if I was alternating hands with each attack.

Test conditions:
* lvl 16 human noble rogue duelist
* 62 str, 42 dex, 16 cun
* Talents: Dueling, DW mastery (and prereqs), power of blood talents (unactivated)
* Gear (not including weaps): +20% crit damage, +1AP

Test #1: The mighty Starfang in my main hand (with +1 fire rune), Olaf's mighty cheese knife in my offhand (with journeyman paralyze rune). According to my spreadsheet, this setup should do an avg 66 damage per hit, not counting the fire rune.  Observed avg without the rune: 56.5. The fire rune appeared to trigger on every hit. The paralyze rune never triggered.

Test #2: Olaf's cheese knife main hand, Starfang offhand. According to my spreadsheet, this setup should do an avg 42 damage per hit. Observed avg: 53. The fire rune in Starfang never triggered, but I did get a stun from the paralyze rune in the dagger.

The mere fact that both tests resulted in about the same avg damage is enough to show that backstabs don't just use the mainhand. But the real proof is in the pattern of hits. There was a very clear alternating high/low pattern like Torin and others have mentioned. If you average all the "even" (high) hits you get an avg damage of 65. If you average all the "odd" (low) hits you get an avg damage of 43. This alternating pattern corresponds almost exactly to the 66 / 42 damage you would expect from each weapon individually.

Conclusion:
* Backstabs alternate between main hand and offhand
* As of right now, don't trust the DPS charts
* This is going to have far-reaching effects on the DPS-maxizing setup for each build. For axe/dagger and longsword/dagger, we have to ask whether the +crit modifier and faster speed of Rose's Thorn are worth giving up a fullsize weapon, taking into account the fact that doing so requires 36 natural dex for DW mastery
* I'd appreciate equipment suggestions from you guys, so I can run them through my spreadsheet. In particular I'm looking for suggestions for fullsize offhand weapons. (The optimum build may turn out to be a mix, like Starfang/Veshialle for all I know.)
* At least my damage formula seems pretty accurate, lol

Sorry for misleading you all about how backstabbing works. Looks like runes are bugged and only the mainhand rune triggers on each hit, even when the offhand is striking. Dunno how to explain that.

Modifié par Discobird, 21 novembre 2009 - 11:53 .

[T0rin3]

Keep up the good work.

[Discobird]

Gotta say, the one advantage this forum has over the old one is: you can keep editing your posts for days after you make them 

[-XM-]

Ok, this would seem to be more consistent with what I observed earlier. White damage+ rune damage, alternating with white damage. I had just stopped paying attention to the numbers after assigning runes.

The bugs/features with abilities/runes/crits/backstab make it all a bit hard to figure out, I don't think we'll have it all figured properly for a while yet! And it is all very item dependent, which would change depending on what modules you are playing as well.

It doesn't change things for how I like to play, but I guess for someone wanting to max DPS it might be worth using two main-hands. Starfang + Veshialle? For pure DPS all that matters is that the extra damage is worth the slower attack speed I guess, if that can be done with two main-hands. You can still get +40% backstab damage via chest+glove+axe?

Irrespective of the rune effect, some mobs seem definitely backstab immune however. Been reloading old saves and testing a few things.

Modifié par -XM-, 22 novembre 2009 - 12:16 .

[T0rin3]

If I had to guess, the current charts are going to be pretty accurate in terms of rankings, because the dagger/dagger cun build is only 1 dps behind the sword/dagger build. I expect the dagger/dagger build to slip a little bit specifically because the offhand dagger is kind of subpar, but I don't really expect to see a big shift in the rankings.

[Rynas]

The "Shield Tactics" passive talent makes shield users immune to flanking, meaning they can't be backstabbed unless paralyzed.



Revenants appear to have this (see vid in my sig - note no backstabs attacking from behind, but backstabs happened when paralyzed), as do a lot of shield-using enemies at later levels, in my experience.



I think there is also the possibility of crit immunity, at least according to the combat scripts, which also makes things immune to backstab. Can't say I've encountered anything like that yet, though.

[Timortis]

T0rin3 wrote...

I don't know if it's random, but there are definitely some enemies that have backstab immunity... coming out of stealth, I find some enemies that I will not backstab, regardless to which side of them Im standing on when I attack from stealth. And it's not just the animation either, the damage just isn't critical/backstab damage. So far I can't see any kind of pattern as to which enemies they are, but since I started paying attention to this phenomenon, I've noticed that it is definitely there.

One such guy is the fire elemental that appears in the Circle Tower after you activate the statues and go to the basement door. He's immune to backstabs.

[SpideyKnight]

I would imagine that Starfang/Vashielle is the optimal build if you are going to go fullsize weapons. I believe Keening Blade is Warrior only so that is out of the question and no other fullsize wep comes close to the power of Starfang or Vashielle. I'm wondering how much this changes things though, what I have tried to do is just stack +crit, not the +crit damage but actual crit and that way I don't have to worry about not being able to backstab certain mobs, and I'm also usually tanking.



Also it should be submitted that there are boots that are a dps increase, probably the best ones are the Cadash Stompers from the Cadash Thaig from Shale's side quest. They give +2 %melee and +2% range(useless) crit chance. Dalish boots give 1 dexterity or so before that.

[Discobird]

 OK, I fixed my spreadsheet and made a new DPS chart reflecting the fact that mainhand and offhand DO alternate while backstabbing.

I didn't change any of the pre-existing builds. I did, however, add two new builds: Axe/longsword str and axe/longsword cunning, to see whether we can improve DPS by switching to dual fullsize weapons. Answer: no. The DPS gained by using a bigger offhand weapon is more than outweighed by the slower attack speed.

Here are the axe/longsword builds:

G: AXE/LONGSWORD STR

This rogue will have pre-gear stats of:

Str: 15 + 45 = 60
Dex: 23 + 13 = 36 (for DW Mastery)
Cun: 20 + 2 = 22

* Mainhand: Veshialle (9.6 base damage, 4.2 AP, +2 str, +10% crit damage, +2 nature damage)
* Offhand: Starfang (11.9 base damage, 4.2 AP, +3 damage, +2.5 AP)
* Helm: Helm of Honnleath (+2 str, +2 dex +2 cun)
* Chest: Warden Commander armor (+15% crit damage
* Gloves: Red Jenny Seekers (+15% crit. damage)
* Boots: nothing improves DPS
* Belt: Andruil's Blessing (+2 str, +2 dex, +2 cun)
* Amulet: Heart of Witherfang (+1 str)
* Ring: Key to the City (+2 str, +2 dex, +2 cun)
* Ring: Dawn Ring (+4 str, -1 cun)

Final stats including gear:
Str: 60 + 13 = 73
Dex: 36 + 6 = 42
Cun: 22 +5 = 27

H: AXE/LONGSWORD CUN

This rogue will have pre-gear stats of:

Str: 15 + 11 = 26 (to wear Warden Commander's Armor ASAP; our gear will help us meet the str req for Veshialle and Starfang.)
Dex: 23 + 13 = 36 (for DW mastery)
Cun: 20 + 36 = 56

* Mainhand: Veshialle (9.6 base damage, 4.2 AP, +2 str, +10% crit damage, +2 nature damage)
* Offhand: Starfang (11.9 base damage, 4.2 AP, +3 damage, +2.5 AP)
* Helm: Helm of Honnleath (+2 str, +2 dex +2 cun)
* Chest: Warden Commander's Armor (+15% crit damage)
* Gloves: Red Jenny Seekers (+15% crit damage)
* Boots: nothing improves DPS
* Belt: Andruil's Blessing (+2 str, +2 dex, +2 cun)
* Amulet: Heart of Witherfang (+1 str)
* Ring: Key to the City (+2 str, +2 dex, +2 cun)
* Ring: Dusk Ring (+3 cun, -1 str)

Final stats including gear:

Str: 26 + 8 = 34
Dex: 36 + 6 = 42
Cun: 56 + 9 = 65

And here's the new chart:


As you can see, the dagger/dagger builds are hardly affected by this change. This is because Thorn of the Dead Gods is almost as good as Rose's Thorn since both weapons benefit from both of their bonuses; they both get the nice +30% crit damage, they get a collective +6 damage, and so on. It turns out that the damage per hit with Rose's Thorn and Thorn of the Dead Gods is almost identical (they differ by less than a point).

Not surprisingly, the fullsize/dagger builds get hurt by this correction. I'll let the numbers speak for themselves.

Most surprisingly to me, it's still not worth switching to dual fullsize weapons from a DPS perspective.

[Discobird]

Rynas wrote...

The "Shield Tactics" passive talent makes shield users immune to flanking, meaning they can't be backstabbed unless paralyzed.

Shield Tactics! That probably explains the random white unbackstabbable mook. I'll have to pay closer attention and see whether my targets are using shields or not. If so it makes sense to have the rest of my party attack them while I go for someone else.

[Timortis]

Interesting, Discobird, can you make a DPS chart for when these builds aren't backstabbing?

[DragoonKain3]

Or more specifically, DPS charts for warrior builds? Pretty please, with a cherry on top?



Just going by the rogue charts alone though, I'd imagine dagger/dagger dex will still come out on top, with axe/dagger and sword/dagger almost neck and neck, while sword/axe comes in last.

[T0rin3]

Wow, and I figured dagger/dagger cun would slip.. guess not.

[Rynas]

That's interesting that dagger/dagger dex is worse than full/full against heavily armored targets. I guess the str-based damage makes it better. So I hit like a wet noodle, relatively speaking, against high armor. Still feels like more than enough to kill stuff, though

[tranj84cl]

Nice to know It's good to see this evolve as new information comes out.

[Discobird]

Timortis wrote...

Interesting, Discobird, can you make a DPS chart for when these builds aren't backstabbing?

I could do that at some point but I don't really see how useful that would be?

DragoonKain3...

Or more specifically, DPS charts for warrior builds? Pretty please, with a cherry on top?

Maybe when I start my warrior  

[Discobird]

Timortis wrote...
Thanks, I didn't know about the cap. So what's crit damage, 150% of normal, with items capped at 200%?

The formula's in section I of the OP, basically crits multiply your weapon's base damage + damage bonus from attributes. So at the end of the day it won't be a full 200% damage since crits/backstabs don't multiply damage from runes, Exploit Weakness, and other stuff.

[Timortis]

Discobird wrote...

Timortis wrote...

Interesting, Discobird, can you make a DPS chart for when these builds aren't backstabbing?

I could do that at some point but I don't really see how useful that would be?

I'm just curious, since there are creatures which you can't backstab and if you play a solo Rogue  you can't always backstab. I've been soloing with a Rogue on Nightmare on my second playthrough, and I find myself using Dual Striking a lot for example, especially once I run out of Stamina and can't use any stuns.

Modifié par Timortis, 22 novembre 2009 - 03:23 .

[T0rin3]

I did a comparison on my level 18 rogue to see how it would compare between the various builds I might use, this is what I came up with:

Level 18 City Elf Rogue



Cun Builds Equipment

Weapon 1: Rose's Thorn

Weapon 2: Thorn of the Dead Gods

Head: Helm of Honnleath

Hands: Red Jenny Seekers

Body: The Felon's Coat

Shoes: Silverhammer's Tackmasters

Belt: Andruil's Blessing

Neck: The Spellward

Ring 1: Harvest Festival Ring

Ring 2: Key to the City



Dagger/Dagger Cun Duelist/Assassin

205/205 hp

143/143 stamina (90 reserved: Momentum/Duelist)

16.4% Fatigue

22 Armor

110 Defense

104 Attack

36.1/35.6 Damage

22/46/25/18/84/16 Stats (Str/Dex/Wil/Mag/Cun/Con)

49 Mental Resistance

54 Physical Resistance

0/0/0/45/0 Elemental Resistances

195% Crit Damage



Dagger/Dagger Cun Assassin/Bard

205/205 hp

133/133 stamina (110 reserved: Momentum/Song of Courage)

16.4% Fatigue

22 Armor

98 Defense

94 Attack Pre-Song of Courage

104 Attack Post-Song of Courage

35.0/34.5 Damage Pre-Song of Courage

40.7/40.2 Damage Post-Song of Courage

22/44/27/18/85/16 Stats (Str/Dex/Wil/Mag/Cun/Con)

49 Mental Resistance

54 Physical Resistance

0/0/0/45/0 Elemental Resistances

195% Crit Damage





Str Builds Equipment

Weapon 1: Starfang

Weapon 2: Rose's Thorn

Head: Helm of Honnleath

Hands: Wade's Superior Dragonskin Gloves

Body: Wade's Superior Dragonskin Armor

Shoes: Wade's Superior Dragonskin Boots

Belt: Andruil's Blessing

Neck: The Spellward

Ring 1: Harvest Festival Ring

Ring 2: Key to the City



Longsword/Dagger Str Duelist/Assassin

215/215 hp

168/168 stamina (65 reserved: Momentum/Duelist)

0.0% Fatigue

21 Armor

101 Defense

127 Attack

48.7/33.4 Damage

72/41/25/18/32/18 Stats (Str/Dex/Wil/Mag/Cun/Con)

23 Mental Resistance

70/0/0/45/0 Elemental Resistances

180% Crit Damage

[Discobird]

I updated the OPs to account for the fact that backstabs alternate hands.



Torin: thanks for posting your stats! So the difference in attack rating between the cunning builds and str builds is about 23. Good to keep in mind.

[T0rin3]

And it's actually a noticeable difference, I'm finishing up a full run through the Dwarf quest in The Deep Roads, and my non-backstab hit rate feels significantly lower as a Cun rogue than my Str rogue run through I did earlier today. The backstabbing feels more powerful, I do hit noticeable faster, and for about the same damage (yay Exploit Weakness and 85 Cunning) but my non-backstab performance certainly lacks.

Edit: Also no Riposte at level 18 yet on the Cunning build, bleh. Riposte was my bread and butter to follow up the Stealth backstab on mages to keep them stunned so I could kill them before they did anything.

Modifié par T0rin3, 22 novembre 2009 - 04:04 .