612 réponses à ce sujet

[Discobird]

Are you using any party buffs to improve your hit rate?

[T0rin3]

I've got Rally from Alistair that boosts it up to 114. Heroic Offensive from Wynne only lasts 20 seconds and only gives 16 attack... kind of a pain to keep up, even with a Tactic set to do it.



But my Str rogue had the same 10 attack boost from Alistair as well, so the gap is always going to be there. I think if I can get up around 135-140 with the Cun build, I'd be ok with the non-backstab performance, but the question is how? (without burning tons of mana with Heroic Offensive)

[T0rin3]

Geez, just finished up the Corrupted Spider Queen fight and man, that was Whiff Heaven. I will personally vouch for how much attack power matters in actuality. And wahhh, I miss Riposte.

[Discobird]

Yeah the attack rating gap will still be there, but once your attack is high enough to break a 100% hit rate it won't mater.



I have my mage set to [Target:Hero:Any | Heroic Offense], it works pretty well for me. It's low priority so she won't use it if someone needs healing instead. 20 mana every 20s isn't too bad for a mage at all IMO.



Miasma would work if you have it. So would Shale's Stone Aura if you invest in it (it gives +10 attack and some penalty to enemy defense I think).

[T0rin3]

Question is, how on earth do you get it high enough with a Cun build without wasting stat points?



I just setup that same tactic a few minutes ago, half-way through that stupid spider queen fight, it helped a little bit, but I was still missing half of my normal attacks on the queen.



I am working up to Miasma on Morrigan right now, I think she is 1 level away from it. Thing about Shale though, if I'm using him, I'm using Stoneheart, not Stone Aura. :-/ Plus, Stone Aura is only +10 attack, and what do I get? An immobile Golem.

[T0rin3]

And this is pretty lame game party/item progression, the attack rating is a lot worse earlier on.

[5Warlocks]

How does taking out the Dexterity fix affect these numbers? I do not plan on using it until it is part of an official patch.

[Discobird]

5Warlocks wrote...

How does taking out the Dexterity fix affect these numbers? I do not plan on using it until it is part of an official patch.

Dagger/dagger cunning does about 120 DPS without the hotfix.

[T0rin3]

Yeah, you get a pure cunning bonus instead of 50% dex 50% cunning after teh hotfix, it's actually a nerf to cunning and strength builds and a boost to dexterity builds.

[Aldriann]

It's rather odd to achieve the pre-gear stats without the additional stats you in get the fade assuming you go for momentum as your first ability. You would need to put dex at 24 without the additional 4 dex from both the fade and specs. Unless of course you respec with the mod. But, without respecing is it worth getting to 24 dex without all the additional stats you acquire later? Does it not make the additional stats obsolete?

Also, Commander Warden's Armor requires 42 Str to use. Unless I'm missing something what do you acquire at 26 str?

A bit off topic here Disco, but what would you go for in the beginning as an archer in terms of skills. What are the priorities? Archery seems weak early game. Also, I wonder if the Rapid Aim and such you get from gear stacks with the ability itself as well.

Modifié par Aldriann, 22 novembre 2009 - 04:55 .

[Discobird]

Aldriann wrote...
But, without respecing is it worth getting to 24 dex without all the additional stats you acquire later? Does it not make the additional stats obsolete?

The extra dex is redundant for non-dagger builds, yes. But I found it really helpful to have Momentum at lvl 3.  It boosts your DPS by over 40%.  It's like having a third arm.*  It's not necessary per se, but then neither are the stat points you save by waiting until the fade. In any case I definitely would not wait until your second spec at level 14 to get Momentum.  So you will "waste" 2 points in dex anyway.

Also, Commander Warden's Armor requires 42 Str to use. Unless I'm missing something what do you acquire at 26 str?

The armor scales depending on when you get it. I went to Warden's Keep around level 8 and it was a tier 3 armor with a 26 str requirement. If you go later it'll be higher tier with a correspondingly higher req.

A bit off topic here Disco, but what would you go for in the beginning as an archer in terms of skills. What are the priorities? Archery seems weak early game. Also, I wonder if the Rapid Aim and such you get from gear stacks with the ability itself as well.

I'd probably beeline for Arrow of Slaying, then work my way up to scattershot with a possible detour for spec talents (Dueling, ranger pets, whatever). As for Rapid Aim/ Rapid Shot, I'll write more about that in a future thread  

* and it's just as fun as that implies!

Modifié par Discobird, 22 novembre 2009 - 05:26 .

[Viskharn]

Hey Disco =) I did some looking into haste + momentum,



I believe aura-buffs take priority when the game checks stacking buffs. So if i had momentum, swift salve, tained blade running, then turned on haste, those 3 previous buffs would be negated, and haste would be the only thing working. I think aura buffs take priority, i'm not sure if its a bug or not, but thats what is immediately obvious as i cant find any coding atm. Something to note though, but as you stated it affects all spec's equally.



Also tested ranger a fair bit, but yet again there is no obvious coding for the pet figures which is annoying, but the damage is quite insane. I think ranger definitely deserves a spot as a spec. But that would mean dagger/dagger cunning builds (like myself) would have an even harder time closing the attack gap. which makes me believe:



There would be no way in hell to test this but i believe a hybrid dagger/dagger dex/cun assasin/ranger spec would actually be the highest dps possible, ill have more of a play around.



And as a side question since i haven't done any at all, is stealing worth the 4 points? what sort of loot do you receive?

[Discobird]

Thanks Viskharn! Very interesting findings you made. Are you saying that Momentum + Swift Salve stack before you turn on Haste? I will definitely look into this too when I get a chance.

I hear you about rangers, you may very well be right that the sweet spot is a hybrid dex/cun assassin/ranger with just enough dex to have a high hit-rate even without dueling. Figuring out that sweet spot is not easy though D:

I have stealing 4 on my current dagger/dagger cunning rogue. I'm only lvl 13, and the loot hasn't been that good so far, but people say you can steal as much as 2g from yellow monsters at higher levels. [sound of a cash register opening]

Modifié par Discobird, 22 novembre 2009 - 07:19 .

[xIc3x]

Discobird wrote...

I'd probably beeline for Arrow of Slaying, then work my way up to scattershot with a possible detour for spec talents (Dueling, ranger pets, whatever). As for Rapid Aim/ Rapid Shot, I'll write more about that in a future thread  

* and it's just as fun as that implies!

I just started a rogue ranger, I went straight for arrow of slaying, got it at level 6. One point in melee archer is handy, now I'm going for scattershot. One point in wolf so far, just hit level 7.

I can't freakin wait for a good topic on rapid aim / rapid shot, that's pretty much the only thing I'm lost about with this character. Thanks again for taking the time to do calculations like this . Soooooo helpful!

[Ulysseslotro]

================================================================================
Well, I thank you for this post and your research. It is nice to see so much work go into
this thread. I have come up with my own variation of your formula. I'll also just be
reusing alot of your stuff with some minor alterations. Copy paste ftw. You deserve all
the credit though. I hope you don't mind.

C * (AVERAGE(W, W * R) + 0.375 * X * Y ) + O - A = DPC (Damage per Crit) for just one
weapon.

{C * ([W1 + (W1 * R)]/2 + 0.375 * X1 * Y - A) + C * ([W2 + (W2 * R)]/2 + 0.375 * X2 * Y - A)}/2 + 0 = Average DPC (accounts for both weapons)

(Edit- Added O/S where bonus damage is also factored by avg speed)
{|C * ([W1 + (W1 * R)]/2 + 0.375 * X1 * Y - A)|/S + |C * ([W2 + (W2 * R)]/2 + 0.375 * X2 * Y - A)|/S}/2 + 0/S = DPSC Damage per second with criticals assuming 100% backstab hits

S is speed of weapon (ie daggers have 1.0 speed where axes have 1.4 speed. It should be (WS1 + WS2)/2 = S This is important because dagger/dagger is divided by 1 where as Axe/dagger is divided by 1.2 and thus has even lower Damage per Second.
W1 = Weapon 1 base damage
W2 = Weapon 2 base damage
X1 = Weapon 1 attribute multiplier
X2 = Weapon 2 attribute multiplier
Y1 = Total Attributes above ten affecting weapon 1
Y2 = Total Attributes above ten affecting weapon 2

================================================================================

* Exploit Weakness, which adds an expected 0.2 * (cunning-10) bonus damage to each backstab
* Tainted Blood, which adds 5 + 0.2 * (cunning-10) bonus damage
* Bonus damage from gear, including runes and bonus damage on offhand weapons (offhand bonuses seem to contribute to mainhand attacks)
* Duelist's +1 bonus damage - Not going to use this as I'll be using an Assassing/Ranger
* Bonus damage from levelling (for rogues this is 0.2 damage per level)

O = [( 0.2 * (cunning -10)) + (0.2 * (cunning -10)) + Rune Damage from Mainhand + Green Gear Damage Bonuses + 0.2(Level 18)] + class Damage Bonuses.
O = [( 0.2 * (cunning -10)) + Rune Damage from Mainhand + Green Gear Damage Bonuses + 0.2(Level 18)] + class Damage Bonuses.

================================================================================
Here is a list of everything that goes into the target's armor, A:
X = Target's nominal armor value
AP = Armor penetration from the weapon
APB = Bonus AP from gear

A = X - AP - APB - (Cunning -10)/7
================================================================================

Also, tainted blood can not be up alot if you never put alot of points into constitution. Since your getting hit and getting -10 every 2 seconds it'll be hard to even finish an entire fight against anything other than a white mob before dieing. Since your constitution is so low, it is improbable that The Tainted Blade is at all used often. You would need to add 20 constitution to allow your character to have Tainted Blade up 20 seconds. This artificially inflates the damage of anyone with high Cun, when they can't use it due to lack of health. I would venture to say that if you have no points placed in Constitution then Tainted Blood is a non-factor in average damage.
================================================================================

And I never go for Momentum now that I know Haste overrides it. It is a complete waste. I would get a mage to have group haste up all the time. When I picked up Wynne she was only 2 talents from it.

================================================================================
Assuming all the rest is correct
These calculations are assumed against Zero Armor and that your Hit Rate is 100%

A: An Axe/Dagger Str build might look like this

Str: 10 + 1 (human) + 4 (fade) = 15
Dex: 10 + 4 (rogue) + 1 (human) + 2 (assassin) + 4 (fade) = 21
Cun: 10 + 4 (rogue) + 1 (human) + 5 (fade) = 20

Use 2 points on Cun @ LVL 12 to get Master Stealth
Use 1 point on Dex to unlock Cripple and Feign Death (which are mediocre but hey just 1 pt of dex needed)
+57 Strength

* Mainhand: Veshialle (9.6 base damage, 4.2 AP, +2 str, +10% crit damage, +2 nature damage)
* Offhand: Rose's Thorn (6.4 dam., 8 AP, +30% crit damage, +3 damage, +2 dex)
* Helm: Helm of Honnleath (+2 str, +2 dex +2 cun)
* Chest: Blood Dragon plate (+3 str)
* Gloves: Red Jenny Seekers (+15% crit. damage)
* Boots: Cadash Stompers (+2 dex)
* Belt: Andruil's Blessing (+2 str, +2 dex, +2 cun)
* Amulet: Heart of Witherfang (+1 str)
* Ring: Key to the City (+2 str, +2 dex, +2 cun)
* Ring: Lifegiver (+10 Constitution)

*Dawn Ring comes so late in the game that it too should not be a considered in damage. An interesting alternative would be to use the Lifegiver ring with +10 constitution this will give you 10 seconds of The Tainted Blade.

Final stats including gear:
Str: 15 + 57 + 12 = 84
Dex: 21 + 1 + 10 = 32 (Just enough to equip Rose's Thorn)
Cun: 20 + 2 + 6 = 28
Att: +58

{|C * ([W1 + (W1 * R)]/2 + 0.375 * X1 * Y1 - A)|/S + |C * ([W2 + (W2 * R)]/2 + 0.375 * X2 * Y2 - A)|/S}/2 + {[( 0.2 * (cunning -10)) + 5 + (0.2 * (cunning -10)) + Rune Damage from Mainhand + Green Gear Damage Bonuses + 0.2(Level 18)] + class Damage Bonuses.}/S

C = 2
W1 = 9.6
W2 = 6.4
R = 1.5
Y1 = 74
Y2 = (32 - 10 + 84 - 10) = 96
X1 = 1.1
X2 = 0.425
A = 0
S = 1.2

=95.66

Replace Lifegiver with Harvest ring for the +2 str and we'll use this variables instead.

C = 2
W1 = 9.6
W2 = 6.4
R = 1.5
Y1 = 76
Y2 = (32 - 10 + 86 - 10) = 98
X1 = 1.1
X2 = 0.425
A = 0
S = 1.2

=89.65

This shows that even with a small Cun score that The Tainted Blade outperforms a +2 Str item. From this we can assume that for one to have the most DPS they'll want to use The Tainted Blade and have the Lifegiver or Blood-Gorged Amulet equiped. This will give them 10 seconds of Tainted Blade without dipping into their natural health pool.

B: DAGGER/DAGGER CUN

This rogue will have pre-gear stats of:

Str: 15 + 5 = 20
Dex: 23 + 9 = 32
Cun: 20 + 46 = 66

* Mainhand: Dead Thaig Shanker (6.00 base damage, 7.0 AP, +6 Att, +0.5 AP, +5 Cun)
* Offhand: Varathorn's Dar'Misu (5.20 base damage, 3.9 AP, +6 Att, +2 AP)
* Helm: Helm of Honnleath (+2 dex +2 cun)
* Chest: Felon's Coat (+6 dex)
* Gloves: Red Jenny Seekers (+15% crit damage)
* Boots: Cadash Stompers (+2 dex)
* Belt: Andruil's Blessing (+2 dex, +2 cun)
* Amulet: Blood-Gorged Amulet (+12 Constitution)
* Ring: Key to the City (+2 dex, +2 cun)
* Ring: Harvest Ring (+4 Att, +2 dex)

Final stats including gear:

Dex: 32 + 16 = 48
Cun: 66 + 11 = 77

I don't think Cun builds will care about AP since they have a ton of AP already. Any mobs that have 30 armor they wouldn't hit anyhow so we'll go with Jenny Gloves. We can replace Warden with Felon's, this will allow better hit ratio and give off-hand more damage. We'll use Harvest Ring + 4 Att, +2 Dex since we need alot of +Att. The Weapons we'll replace with Dead Thaig Shanker +6 Att and we'll use the Varathorn's Dar'Misu +6 Att in the offhand. We'll also be using the Blood-Gorged Amulet because you wouldn't be able to use The Tainted Blade otherwise. And you will only be using 2 runes in main and none in off-hand. This is a more realistic what Cuns builds would use.

{|C * ([W1 + (W1 * R)]/2 + 0.375 * X1 * Y1 - A)|/S + |C * ([W2 + (W2 * R)]/2 + 0.375 * X2 * Y2 - A)|/S}/2 + {[( 0.2 * (cunning -10)) + 5 + (0.2 * (cunning -10)) + Rune Damage from Mainhand + Green Gear Damage Bonuses + 0.2(Level 18)] + class Damage Bonuses.}/S

C = 1.65
W1 = 6.0
W2 = 5.2
R = 1.5
Y1 = 125
Y2 = 125
X1 = 0.425
X2 = 0.425
A = 0
S = 1

= 89.79

For every 2 pts in Dex you'll get +1 Att. So we could try a hybrid build. We'll take away 12 Cun and put it into 12 Dex and then we'll replace the Varathorn's Dar'Misu with Rose's Thorn.

C: DAGGER/DAGGER CUN/Dex Hybrid

This rogue will have pre-gear stats of:

Str: 15 + 5 = 20
Dex: 23 + 21 = 44
Cun: 20 + 34 = 54

* Mainhand: Rose's Thorn (6.4 base damage, 8.4 AP, +2 dex, +3 damage, +30% crit damage)
* Offhand: Dead Thaig Shanker (6.00 base damage, 7.0 AP, +6 Att, +0.5 AP, +5 Cun)
* Helm: Helm of Honnleath (+2 dex +2 cun)
* Chest: Felon's Coat (+6 dex)
* Gloves: Red Jenny Seekers (+15% crit damage)
* Boots: Cadash Stompers (+2 dex)
* Belt: Andruil's Blessing (+2 dex, +2 cun)
* Amulet: Blood-Gorged Amulet (+12 Constitution)
* Ring: Key to the City (+2 dex, +2 cun)
* Ring: Harvest Ring (+4 Att, +2 dex)

Final stats including gear:

Dex: 44 + 18 = 62  (+31 Att)
Cun: 54 + 11 = 65
ATT: +50

{|C * ([W1 + (W1 * R)]/2 + 0.375 * X1 * Y1 - A)|/S + |C * ([W2 + (W2 * R)]/2 + 0.375 * X2 * Y2 - A)|/S}/2 + {[( 0.2 * (cunning -10)) + 5 + (0.2 * (cunning -10)) + Rune Damage from Mainhand + Green Gear Damage Bonuses + 0.2(Level 18)] + class Damage Bonuses.}/S

C = 1.95
W1 = 6.4
W2 = 6.0
R = 1.5
Y1 = 127
Y2 = 127
X1 = 0.425
X2 = 0.425
A = 0
S = 1

= 103.1

This is probably the only Cun that would work, the others are too fictitious assuming they would hit 100% is the fallacy. This build tries to make up for lack of +Attack, and indeed it does 8 more DPS than the STR build and may provide better defense due to higher Dex.  It would also have better AP.  I have added up the +Attack bonus from stats and items and this build is only 8 points behind the strength build.  You should not have that much trouble hitting mobs.  This Hybrid should allow for better DPS aswell as the decent hit ratio.  Also, you will only have 5 rune slots not 6.

But let us see a Dex build

D: DAGGER/DAGGER DEX

Str: 15 + 5 = 20 (needed to Felon's Coat)
Dex: 23 + 53 = 76
Cun: 20 + 2 = 22 (master stealth)

* Mainhand: Rose's Thorn (6.4 base damage, 8.4 AP, +2 dex, +3 damage, +30% crit damage)
* Offhand: Thorn of the Dead Gods (6.0 base damage, +3 damage, +3 AP)
* Helm: Helm of Honnleath (+2 str, +2 dex, +2 cun)
* Chest: Felon's Coat (+6 dex)
* Gloves: Red Jenny Seekers (+15% crit damage)
* Boots: Cadash Stompers (+2 dex)
* Belt: Andruil's Blessing (+2 str, +2 dex, +2 cun)
* Amulet: Blood-Gorged Amulet (+12 Constitution, -3 Str)
* Ring: Key to the City (+2 str, +2 dex, +2 cun)
* Ring: Harvest Festival Ring (+2 str, +2 dex)

Final stats including gear:
Str: 20 + 5 = 25
Dex: 76 + 18 = 94
Cun: 22 + 6 = 28

I replaced the Amulet because the use of The Tainted Blade requires a higher Constitution. This will allow for 10 Seconds.

{|C * ([W1 + (W1 * R)]/2 + 0.375 * X1 * Y1 - A)|/S + |C * ([W2 + (W2 * R)]/2 + 0.375 * X2 * Y2 - A)|/S}/2 + {[( 0.2 * (cunning -10)) + 5 + (0.2 * (cunning -10)) + Rune Damage from Mainhand + Green Gear Damage Bonuses + 0.2(Level 18)] + class Damage Bonuses.}/S

C = 1.95
W1 = 6.4
W2 = 6.0
R = 1.5
Y1 = 119
Y2 = 119
X1 = 0.425
X2 = 0.425
A = 0
S = 1

= 88.9

This is weakest build of them all. The reason it is weaker is because you have to place points into two stats. If you gained full bonus damage for each point of stat you would be doing well. You should be getting .85 modifier to both Str and Dex on piercing weapons like Daggers, but instead they just half it .425 for Str and .425 for Dex. This results in a decrease in DPS compared to the STR build. The upside is that this build has the best Defense.

Lets take a look at an Axe/Axe Str build.

E: Axe/Axe Str

Str: 15 + 57 = 72
Dex: 21 + 1 = 22
Cun: 20 + 2 = 22

* Mainhand: Veshialle (9.6 base damage, 4.2 AP, +2 str, +10% crit damage, +2 nature damage)
* Offhand: Axameter (9.0 base damage, 3.5 AP, +2 Damage, +10% Critical/Backstab damage)
* Helm: Helm of Honnleath (+2 str, +2 dex +2 cun)
* Chest: Warden Commander's Armor (+15% crit damage)
* Gloves: Red Jenny Seekers (+15% crit. damage)
* Boots: Cadash Stompers (+2 dex)
* Belt: Andruil's Blessing (+2 str, +2 dex, +2 cun)
* Amulet: Heart of Witherfang (+1 str)
* Ring: Key to the City (+2 str, +2 dex, +2 cun)
* Ring: Lifegiver (+10 Constitution)

Final stats including gear:
Str: 72 + 9 = 81
Dex: 22 + 8 = 30
Cun: 22 + 6 = 28

{|C * ([W1 + (W1 * R)]/2 + 0.375 * X1 * Y1 - A)|/S + |C * ([W2 + (W2 * R)]/2 + 0.375 * X2 * Y2 - A)|/S}/2 + {[( 0.2 * (cunning -10)) + 5 + (0.2 * (cunning -10)) + Rune Damage from Mainhand + Green Gear Damage Bonuses + 0.2(Level 18)] + class Damage Bonuses.}/S

C = 2
W1 = 9.6
W2 = 9.0
R = 1.5
Y1 = 81
Y2 = 81
X1 = 1.1
X2 = 1.1
A = 0
S = 1.4

= 89.19

This looks like a viable option if you prefer dual axes. You'll lose out on one Rune in the off-hand but since it isn't used to calculate the damage on criticals you wont miss alot.

E: Axe/Sword Str

Str: 15 + 57 = 72
Dex: 21 + 1 = 22
Cun: 20 + 2 = 22

* Mainhand: Veshialle (9.6 base damage, 4.2 AP, +2 str, +10% crit damage, +2 nature damage)
* Offhand: Starfang (11.9 base damage, 4.2 AP, +3 damage, +2.5 AP)
* Helm: Helm of Honnleath (+2 str, +2 dex +2 cun)
* Chest: Warden Commander's Armor (+15% crit damage)
* Gloves: Red Jenny Seekers (+15% crit. damage)
* Boots: Cadash Stompers (+2 dex)
* Belt: Andruil's Blessing (+2 str, +2 dex, +2 cun)
* Amulet: Heart of Witherfang (+1 str)
* Ring: Key to the City (+2 str, +2 dex, +2 cun)
* Ring: Lifegiver (+10 Constitution)

Final stats including gear:
Str: 72 + 9 = 81
Dex: 22 + 8 = 30
Cun: 22 + 6 = 28

{|C * ([W1 + (W1 * R)]/2 + 0.375 * X1 * Y1 - A)|/S + |C * ([W2 + (W2 * R)]/2 + 0.375 * X2 * Y2 - A)|/S}/2 + {[( 0.2 * (cunning -10)) + 5 + (0.2 * (cunning -10)) + Rune Damage from Mainhand + Green Gear Damage Bonuses + 0.2(Level 18)] + class Damage Bonuses.}/S

C = 1.9
W1 = 9.6
W2 = 11.9
R = 1.5
Y1 = 81
Y2 = 81
X1 = 1.1
X2 = 1.0
A = 0
S = 1.4

= 87.09

Modifié par Ulysseslotro, 23 novembre 2009 - 02:50 .

[DragoonKain3]

Don't mean to hijack the thread (sorry Discobird), but some Warrior numbers.

DEX dagger/dagger
+2 Rose of thorns
+2 Silverhammer Trackmasters
+6 Felon's Coat
+1 Wade's Superior Drakeskin Gloves
+4 Helm of Honnleath
+0 Magister's Shield (since this is a dex build, I'd get +6 defense over a piddly +1 str with Witherfang amulet)
+4 Andruil's Blessing
+4 Key to the City
+0 Lifegiver (to help offset health drain of Blood Frenzy)
+2 Berserker


25 modifier + 56 level up points @lvl18 + 7 warrior + 8 fade = 96 modifier

96 modifier * 0.425 attribute modifier * 0.375 fluctuation average  = 15.3 attribute bonus damage

Now Rose of thorn is 6.4 listed damage, while Thorn of the dead gods is 6.0, which is 6.2 average between the two of them. This can increase up to 1.5x, so average is 7.8

7.2 lvl 18 warrior damage base + 7.8 weapon + 15.3 attribute + 5 damage weapons + 8 damage berserk + 1 to 10 damage Frenzy + 15 damage runes = 58.3 damage per hit + 1 to 10 damage Frenzy

Note that this build sports 163 defense at lvl 18, making them a very effective dodge tank if you wanted to (just note that lack of shield tactics means that can be as low as 143, which isn't that bad still). Only problem is that this build only has +4.5 health regen in comparison to -5 health regen given by Blood frenzy (which is piddly), and only +3 stam regen in comparison to the -5 stam drain of momentum and berserk.

I'd trade the 8 berserk damage though for the +10 defense via rally/war cry AoE knockdown if I'm making this person my main tank, because you're more prone to being swarmed, and you're going to need stamina anyways for taunt (so berserk is out of the question regardless).



Now using Veshaile with Rose of Thorns...
For momentum, you need to up DEX by 6, meaning only 50 points given to STR


STR axe/dagger
+2 Veshiale
+0 Wade's superior dragonscale boots
+0 same as above but chest
+0 same as above but gloves
+2 Helm of Honnleath
+1 Heart of Witherfang
+2 Andruil's blessing
+2 Key to the City
+0 Lifegiver
+2 berseker

STR: 4 warrior + 4 fade + 1 origin +  50 points + 11 equips = 70 bonus STR
DEX: 3 warrior + 4 fade + 1 origin + 6 points + 8 equips = 22 bonus DEX

Veshiale
70 bonus STR * 1.1 attribute modifier * 0.375 fluctuation = 28.9 bonus damage
9.6 base damage * 1.2 average fluctation + 28.9 attribute damage + 2 nature + 15 runes + 8 berserk + 2 dagger bonus damage + 7.2 warrior damage + 1 to 10 frenzy  = 74.6 damage per hit + 1 to 10 frenzy damage

Rose of thorns
92 bonus attributes * 0.425 attribute modifier * 0.375 fluctuation = 14.7 bonus damage
6.4 bas damage * 1.25 fluctation + 14.7 attribute damage + 15 runes + 8 berserk + 2 dagger + 7.2 warrior + 1 to 10 frenzy = 54.9 damage per hit + 1 to 10 frenzy damage

Average between the two is 64.8 + 1 to 10 damage per hit, or 53.96 + 0.8 to 8.3 dps.

A bit less DPS, but note that this build still gets +4.5 health regen and +5 stam regen (thanks to wade's superior dragonscale armor), almost totally offseting the -5 health regen of frenzy  and -5 stam regen of momentum/berserk.


So, anecdotal testimonies have said that DW warriors can do 100 damage per frontal non-crit hit. So am I missing something major/my calcuations are outta whack, or is this just a hyperbole?

[Viskharn]

Ulysseslotro, good work on those finds, and that tainted blade has already become a problem for me, life-items seems the better option rather than constitution points at this stage.



And about my previous post, if you have a 3 melee group then haste probably would work out more beneficial, however on nightmare i've found its really not viable to have a 3 melee group since you get raped and usually lose a party member just by archer's emissaries on the run up to melee range.



But as for what i said, before, ANYTHING self buffing, will stack, this means:

Momentum + Tainted Blade + Swift Salve Will stack, and will stack in any order you put the buffs in.

But the moment you apply haste everything is scrapped, and haste is the only thing that will be working, i think this is because the game deem's a group-wide buff more impotant.



Whether this is a bug with stacking spells, or the game has a cut off point with attack speed % i dont know.

[WillieStyle]

Isn't there a limit to melee haste?

[Aldriann]

Your variation is just a different situation. Group make up is what decides if Haste is better or not. Hybrid dex/cun would only be better than pure cun if pure cun does not have attack buffs such as rally or heroic offense. Which again goes back to group make up and different situations revolving around a group. I've found my pure cun hitting a good amount, not nearly as low as to consider a dex / hybrid build.

[Discobird]

Thanks for posting your variations Ulysseslotro! I noticed that in your DPS formula you forgot to divide the bonus damage (O) by attack speed (S)? If you don't do this you will overestimate the DPS of the slower (i.e. non-dagger/dagger) builds because your formula treats them as applying the bonus damage every second instead of every hit.

Also I noticed you forgot to add the 5 bonus damage from Tainted Blood?

Finally, I'm sure you know this already, but don't forget that armor cannot go below 0.

Anyway, as regards Tainted Blood--you're right that it's not realistic to keep it on *if you don't have a healer.* If you have a healer, though, it's pretty safe--especially if your healer has Regenerate. My party has such a healer, and my rogue has rarely had to turn off Tainted Blood for safety reasons, despite never putting a point in con or wearing +con gear. I pretty much use it with impunity and trust my healer to keep me healthy. This is not difficult since rogues are good at losing aggro.

Put another way-- if you're taking enough damage that Tainted Blood threatens to kill you, things have already hit the fan.

There are a couple of other annoying thing about Tainted Blood, though. First, it has an irritatingly long cast time during which you can't attack (2s or so?), which means I often don't bother to switch it on if there's only one or two enemies. Second, the damage it inflicts will take you out of stealth. Luckily it recharges pretty fast so it's usually no big deal to just turn it off before going on extended stealth trips and turn it back on when you're done sneaking.

[Discobird]

Viskharn wrote...

But as for what i said, before, ANYTHING self buffing, will stack, this means:
Momentum + Tainted Blade + Swift Salve Will stack, and will stack in any order you put the buffs in.

Just to be clear, when you say these all stack before Haste, do you mean that your attack speed is actually higher than Momentum by itself, or do you just mean that all the buffs appear in the status effects part of the quickbar? 

[Discobird]

DragoonKain3 wrote...

Don't mean to hijack the thread (sorry Discobird), but some Warrior numbers.

[snip]

So, anecdotal testimonies have said that DW warriors can do 100 damage per frontal non-crit hit. So am I missing something major/my calcuations are outta whack, or is this just a hyperbole?

Thanks for running the warrior numbers.  Hmm, those DPS figures are actually lower than I expected but I don't see any problems with your calculations offhand (lol). 

Keep in mind that my formula gives the expected damage per hit.  If you want to calculate the maximum damage per hit, you would do:

Axe/dagger: 9.6 (base) * 1.5 (maximum fluctuation)  + 70 (str) * 1.1 (attrib mult.) * 0.5 (maximum fluctuation) + [everything else] = 87.1 + 1-10 frenzy.

Well that's still lower than 100.  but close enough that the diference might be explained by different gear (Starfang probably has bigger hits).

From a DPS-maximizing perspective, it would be interesting to see how a build that emphasizes crit chance instead of +attributes stacks up. 

[DragoonKain3]

Just wondering, how much does bravery increase damage? I can't seem to find it, since I still don't know where the passive scripts are run lol, and that's the one thing I'm missing.

And do you know if it actually scales? Because if the damage is big enough and the enemies hitting the tank is numerous enough, then that would explain the 100 damage per non crit hit.


EDIT: About crit+%, I'm assuming the DW warrior runs Dual Striking. People have given anecdotals that one out of three strikes 'whiff' (which I'm sure you've observed already). But even if thats the case, that gives the Dual striking fighter 4 actual attacks over 3 swings, which means a 33% in effectiveness. If this is true, then I imagine +crit gear won't matter as much, since you can't normally crit under dual striking.

Modifié par DragoonKain3, 23 novembre 2009 - 06:45 .

[Discobird]

Bravery adds a flat +1 damage. For passive bonuses, look in tools/source/2DA/rules/ABI_base.xls

[Ulysseslotro]

Discobird wrote...

Thanks for posting your variations Ulysseslotro! I noticed that in your DPS formula you forgot to divide the bonus damage (O) by attack speed (S)? If you don't do this you will overestimate the DPS of the slower (i.e. non-dagger/dagger) builds because your formula treats them as applying the bonus damage every second instead of every hit.

Also I noticed you forgot to add the 5 bonus damage from Tainted Blood?

Finally, I'm sure you know this already, but don't forget that armor cannot go below 0.

Anyway, as regards Tainted Blood--you're right that it's not realistic to keep it on *if you don't have a healer.* If you have a healer, though, it's pretty safe--especially if your healer has Regenerate. My party has such a healer, and my rogue has rarely had to turn off Tainted Blood for safety reasons, despite never putting a point in con or wearing +con gear. I pretty much use it with impunity and trust my healer to keep me healthy. This is not difficult since rogues are good at losing aggro.

Put another way-- if you're taking enough damage that Tainted Blood threatens to kill you, things have already hit the fan.

There are a couple of other annoying thing about Tainted Blood, though. First, it has an irritatingly long cast time during which you can't attack (2s or so?), which means I often don't bother to switch it on if there's only one or two enemies. Second, the damage it inflicts will take you out of stealth. Luckily it recharges pretty fast so it's usually no big deal to just turn it off before going on extended stealth trips and turn it back on when you're done sneaking.

Thanks for the corrections, I'll go fix them.  And yeah I agree if you have an awesome healer you can do a much better Cun build than I listed.  I was trying to figure out which one was best independent of party buffs though.  And maybe if someone is still having hard time with Tainted Blade they could use both Lifegiver and Blood-gorged at the same time.