163 réponses à ce sujet

[Blacklash93]

PantheraOnca wrote...

Bayz wrote...


Gets even worse if you realise that, tales to be believed, all Arlathan Elves were mages...an entire race of probable Bloodmages. Still elves apparently saw demons as any other spirits so...

If an entire society of blood mages can be toppled, the chantry needs to chill the hell out on the haterade.

The first Archon was supposedly the first person to learn blood magic. That's how the Imperium was established; with a new type of magic no one else had.

[PantheraOnca]

Blacklash93 wrote...

PantheraOnca wrote...

Bayz wrote...


Gets even worse if you realise that, tales to be believed, all Arlathan Elves were mages...an entire race of probable Bloodmages. Still elves apparently saw demons as any other spirits so...

If an entire society of blood mages can be toppled, the chantry needs to chill the hell out on the haterade.

The first Archon was supposedly the first person to learn blood magic. That's how the Imperium was established; with a new type of magic no one else had.

Well, I was deep down the hypothetical rabbit hole, but if all arlathon mages had blood magic, as hypothisized in the quote, and they were able to be effectively wiped out, then maybe blood magic isn't so badass.

[Blacklash93]

PantheraOnca wrote...


Well, I was deep down the hypothetical rabbit hole, but if all arlathon mages had blood magic, as hypothisized in the quote, and they were able to be effectively wiped out, then maybe blood magic isn't so badass.

Why use blood magic when you have plant magic?

[lorvincent]

I am glad this has generated discussion. For your viewing pleasure, further theories that support draconic sentience can be found upon a post by Kijin, that also supports another one of my favourite theories:

http://social.biowar...77041/1#6878262

Flemeth the dragon.

Modifié par lorvincent, 01 avril 2011 - 02:32 .

[Bayz]

Blacklash93 wrote...

I realize Man can worship any animal
as long as it seems powerful, but how many animals tolerate the killing
of their young to let others feast on their blood? How would anyone know
to do that? Why would anyone do that? ... Just look at all the
questions I posed above.

That is implying the dragons know (which on the other hand implies aknoledgment and sentience). The cults  might have just stolen the eggs while the dragon went hunting and killed them before the dragon returned, taking the blood and stuff. We see the cultist in the dragon's lair basically farming the eggs, but we don't know how the beguinning  started.

PantheraOnca wrote...

Bayz wrote...


Gets
even worse if you realise that, tales to be believed, all Arlathan
Elves were mages...an entire race of probable Bloodmages. Still elves
apparently saw demons as any other spirits so...

If
an entire society of blood mages can be toppled, the chantry needs to
chill the hell out on the haterade.

Well you saw what the Chantry did after their hands were freed from the Tevinter Imperium. That said is probably more Chantry propaganda than true.

Blacklash93 wrote...

PantheraOnca wrote...

Bayz
wrote...


Gets even worse if you realise that, tales to be
believed, all Arlathan Elves were mages...an entire race of probable
Bloodmages. Still elves apparently saw demons as any other spirits so...

If
an entire society of blood mages can be toppled, the chantry needs to
chill the hell out on the haterade.

The first Archon
was supposedly the first person to learn blood magic. That's how the
Imperium was established; with a new type of magic no one else
had.

Quoted from the Dragon Age Wiki

"Blood magic was the first form of magic in Thedas.
According to legend, it was taught to Archon Thalsian, founder of the Tevinter Imperium, by Dumat,
the Old God of Silence. Historians argue on this point, suggesting the
Imperium's mages may have learned it from the elves of Arlathan. "

http://dragonage.wik...iki/Blood_magic

Keeping in mind what the spirits are in the Chantry Lore it somewhat made sense but if historians in canon don't know exactly why would  be? Merril though points out that stuff like the Eluvians have a strong feel of blood magic rituals around (but again the Eluvians were extensively used by the tevinter imperium as well).

The main device of the imperium was the hability of interefere on people's dreams through blood magic, which doesn't contradict that Arlathans actually may have used it (alas not at the extent the Chantry wants us to believe probably)

[lorvincent]

My last point of discussion can be found here:

http://social.biowar...84652/1#6884652

Modifié par lorvincent, 01 avril 2011 - 03:08 .

[Danjaru]

Well.. Just one problem.

High Dragons are Female, Old Gods/Archdemons are male.

My theory's been that an Old God is a Male High Dragon that are quite rare.

[Bayz]

Danjaru wrote...

Well.. Just one problem.

High Dragons are Female, Old Gods/Archdemons are male.

My theory's been that an Old God is a Male High Dragon that are quite rare.

Are them? Didn't know that. Male High Dragon is apparently an oxymoron acording to the DA wiki.

Old Gods as Pride Demons possessing dragons is of all the theories the ones I like the most but hey you never know...

[Danjaru]

Bayz wrote...

Are them? Didn't know that. Male High Dragon is apparently an oxymoron acording to the DA wiki.

Old Gods as Pride Demons possessing dragons is of all the theories the ones I like the most but hey you never know...

Well, besides the Oldgods/archdemons being male part.. If it was a Pride Demon possessing a Dragon. One would question why Uthemiel wasn't very talkative.. Haven't met one Pride Demon that wouldn't go on about how awesome they are yet.

[Bayz]

Maybe they do but only people with the taint can understand them...and that's why the wardens end up commiting suicide in the Deep Roads.

Do you imagine once you understand the calling? All the time

"I'm aweeeesome, I'm a draaagoooon dragooon dragooon. God I would **** myself if I could" all the time...day and night...ALL THE TIME (and multiply it for as many Old Gods were still alive...)

[Danjaru]

But we've seen Demons taking over Cats and animals as well as humans.. The one in the Shale DLC didn't go all "meow meow meow meow"

Modifié par Danjaru, 01 avril 2011 - 05:19 .

[Kijin]

Danjaru wrote...

Well.. Just one problem.

High Dragons are Female, Old Gods/Archdemons are male.

My theory's been that an Old God is a Male High Dragon that are quite rare.

Well, that's not really a theory - it's fact. the Old Gods were worshipped as dragons. Dumat was worshipped in the Tevinter Imperium as the Dragon of Silence. Urthemiel, the Archdemon of the Fifth Blight, was worshipped as the Dragon of Beauty. 

This presents a problem for the Chantry's lore - it is all but confirmed that the Old Gods were Dragons. However, according to the Chantry, the Old Gods mislead the people into abandoning the Maker. Yet the Chantry also claims that Dragons may not be sentient. 

If the Old Gods were Dragons, then they must have been sentient enough to convince an entire civilization to worship them. If they were not sentient, then how did the Old God religion form in the first place and why didn't the dragons just kill everything around them like the mindless beasts that they were? 

All of the myths surrounding the Old Gods only make sense if the dragons were sentient. 

Edit: Forgot to include a link - sorry about that.

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Old_gods

Modifié par Kijin, 01 avril 2011 - 05:47 .

[Bayz]

Danjaru wrote...

But we've seen Demons taking over Cats and animals as well as humans.. The one in the Shale DLC didn't go all "meow meow meow meow"

Ahh but it wasn't a TAINTED cat. You are comparing a Hamster with a Gigant Hamster in miniature from outer space...

[Blacklash93]

Bayz wrote...

That is implying the dragons know (which on the other hand implies aknoledgment and sentience). The cults  might have just stolen the eggs while the dragon went hunting and killed them before the dragon returned, taking the blood and stuff. We see the cultist in the dragon's lair basically farming the eggs, but we don't know how the beguinning  started.

Mmm... dragon eggs. I'm surprised there aren't more cults if that's how they start.

Seriously though, the cultists tend to the eggs because that's their charge. They take care of the young. The cultists don't farm them, they care for the eggs (and put some on pedastals for worship). And high dragons are always in their lair when there are eggs. A high dragon only goes out to rampage and that's to prepare the laying of a clutch. Drakes are always there or nearby, as well.

And it's pretty clear that the cultists take the blood from young, live dragonlings at the approval of the dragons. (from what the codex indicates). That's pretty different from taking it from an egg.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 01 avril 2011 - 06:41 .

[Bayz]

Blacklash93 wrote...
Mmm... dragon eggs. I'm surprised there aren't more cults if that's how they start.

Imagine how many full english breakfasts could you have in the confirmation! Is win-win.

Blacklash93 wrote...
Seriously though, the cultists tend to the eggs because that's their charge. They take care of the young. The cultists don't farm them, they care for the eggs (and put some on pedastals for worship). And high dragons are always in their lair when there are eggs. A high dragon only goes out to rampage and that's to prepare the laying of a clutch. Drakes are always there or nearby, as well.

And it's pretty clear that the cultists take the blood from young, live dragonlings. That's pretty different from taking it from an egg.

Ok I missused "farm", they don't farm them like in "human consumption stuff", In my viewing they have them like let's say the hindu have the cows...some kind of sacred animal tht actually came from their Goddess...directly.

I didn't say the opposite. They steal the egg, await for it to break and take the blood (bit far fetched as probably there is nothing that tells them the egg is impregnated, but the cultists life tends to be veeery lonely and sad)

[Blacklash93]

Bayz wrote...

Imagine how many full english breakfasts could you have in the confirmation! Is win-win.

Dragon Cultists: Insane Tribals... Or Culinary Geniuses? 

Ok I missused "farm", they don't farm them like in "human consumption stuff", In my viewing they have them like let's say the hindu have the cows...some kind of sacred animal tht actually came from their Goddess...directly.

I didn't say the opposite. They steal the egg, await for it to break and take the blood (bit far fetched as probably there is nothing that tells them the egg is impregnated, but the cultists life tends to be veeery lonely and sad)

At this point, going off what the codex says, it seems that the cultists kill the dragonlings at the older dragons' permission. Not conclusive proof as it's from the PoV of just one person in the DA world, but it's all there is to go on.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 01 avril 2011 - 06:53 .

[Bayz]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Bayz wrote...

Imagine how many full english breakfasts could you have in the confirmation! Is win-win.

Dragon Cultists: Insane Tribals... Or Culinary Geniuses? 

Ok I missused "farm", they don't farm them like in "human consumption stuff", In my viewing they have them like let's say the hindu have the cows...some kind of sacred animal tht actually came from their Goddess...directly.

I didn't say the opposite. They steal the egg, await for it to break and take the blood (bit far fetched as probably there is nothing that tells them the egg is impregnated, but the cultists life tends to be veeery lonely and sad)

At this point, going off what the codex says, it seems that the cultists kill the dragonlings at the older dragons' permission. Not conclusive proof as it's from the PoV of just one person in the DA world, but it's all there is to go on.

Just saw it in the codex, yes. But it seems to be it speaks more of propper dragon cults already stablished rather than how the cults beguin TBH. Anything can be at the end of the day.

I just loved the image of the cultists running through a corridor with the dragon egg in their hands and Benny Hill theme in the background.

Modifié par Bayz, 01 avril 2011 - 06:57 .

[Verasas]

Dragons seem to have some sort of telepathy. They do not have to be highly intelligent if they're just using the human mind to enthrall the victim. God worship could just be side effect or a way for the human mind to cope with being put under the spell.

The old gods are some sort dragon it's obvious. I

[Blacklash93]

Verasas wrote...

Dragons seem to have some sort of telepathy. They do not have to be highly intelligent if they're just using the human mind to enthrall the victim. God worship could just be side effect or a way for the human mind to cope with being put under the spell. 

ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL

[Bayz]

Aye I saw a dragon doing something like that in ol' Starcraft....wait wrong game

(and wrong unit, and spelling)

[Danjaru]

Bayz wrote...

Danjaru wrote...

But we've seen Demons taking over Cats and animals as well as humans.. The one in the Shale DLC didn't go all "meow meow meow meow"

Ahh but it wasn't a TAINTED cat. You are comparing a Hamster with a Gigant Hamster in miniature from outer space...

I don't see how that matters too much.. Tainted people don't loose the possibility to speak. The Taint doesn't give you a secret language.

I mean the Warden Commander of Warden's keep is a tainted abomination, she could speak..

I could be wrong but from what I've seen I wouldn't think the Archdemons are just possessed Dragons.

Also the fact that Old Gods have been recorded speaking to people (teaching Magisters blood magic and whatnot). Wouldn't make sense that a tainted/possessed one would suddenly loose the ability of normal speech.

Modifié par Danjaru, 01 avril 2011 - 10:53 .

[Bayz]

Danjaru wrote...

Bayz wrote...

Danjaru wrote...

But we've seen Demons taking over Cats and animals as well as humans.. The one in the Shale DLC didn't go all "meow meow meow meow"

Ahh but it wasn't a TAINTED cat. You are comparing a Hamster with a Gigant Hamster in miniature from outer space...

I don't see how that matters too much.. Tainted people don't loose the possibility to speak. The Taint doesn't give you a secret language.

I mean the Warden Commander of Warden's keep is a tainted abomination, she could speak..

I could be wrong but from what I've seen I wouldn't think the Archdemons are just possessed Dragons.

Also the fact that Old Gods have been recorded speaking to people (teaching Magisters blood magic and whatnot). Wouldn't make sense that a tainted/possessed one would suddenly loose the ability of normal speech.

That is apparently Chantry Version. The  wiki says otherwise (but don't give references so might have been Fanwank)

www.youtube.com/watch

This is just for the record of what happens with the hability to speak to tainted people.

True enough in Dryden's case, but it might have something to do with the Joining, then you've got Hespith and Seranni, but it is also truth that the taint takes more or less time to take effect in one individual than in others (reason why some die during the joining and  some doesn't I believe) This individuals are problably the ones who end up as broodmothers (yumm sexy)

Also there is the fact of what you "hear" of the Archdemon orders during Darkspawn Chronicles...is not exactly "talking" is it?

That said, is just one theory as any other. Canon hasn't expressed anything yet so do not jump into conclusions. (also  it was a tongue in cheek comment

Modifié par Bayz, 01 avril 2011 - 11:13 .

[lorvincent]

Bayz wrote...

No the Dragon we see at least in Haven has definatively not been raised by humans as it is apparently the one who started the Dragon Age. And it doesn't actually seem tamed at all.

Still if the cultist basically provided goods to it like cows to eat etc they might condition it to certain stuff "I play the horn, you come I pinch you for some blood, here is your dinner" (which fridge horror would mean a lot of cultist dying until the dragon starts to realise is better to eat the guy who gives them dinner AFTER eating the cow ).

I don't deny that dragons may be sentinent completely, I'm just saying there is not evidence enough to prove they are yet. We will see in the future.

Yes, one could use classical conditioning to train an animal into certain behaviours, but lets look at a dragon in that scenario.

To related the sound of the horn to food time, one would need to draw the dragon down to begin with.  Given the fact the dragon sees us run below it, we can tell the dragon does not react directly to a human presence.  If it would react to food, however, then you would see it fly down?  Lets assume it would fly down for a tasty cow.  At that same time you blow the horn.  If you do this enough, the dragon will eventually fly down from just hearing the horn, assuming a cow is available.  Upon landing, the dragon would eat the cow, and attack the human near it, assuming it followed the natural responses of most predatorial and territorial animals.  We know it still attacks humans when summoned down by the horn as well, since it attacks us.  Clearly it has not been trained to complacency at the presence of a human.  This means, to feed it, they would have to summon it, and sacrifice a human.  This won't work, because the ONLY person allowed to use the horn, and allowed to see the dragon, is Father Kolgrim, who clearly is alive.  This means the dragon can differentiate between humans, which clearly establishes you as a threat, and Kolgrim as a "friend".  This argument supports the possibility for higher intelligence in dragons.  Another possibility is the dragon could feel emotions for Kolgrim, leading it to attack any other visitor.  If this is the case, then once again higher intelligence can be supported, as judged by your previous discussions with Kijin on his Flemeth thread.

Sorry I've been too busy for the past two days to post.  Time to finally post on Kijin's thread after this

[Herr Uhl]

lorvincent wrote...

To related the sound of the horn to food time, one would need to draw the dragon down to begin with.  Given the fact the dragon sees us run below it, we can tell the dragon does not react directly to a human presence.  If it would react to food, however, then you would see it fly down?  Lets assume it would fly down for a tasty cow.  At that same time you blow the horn.  If you do this enough, the dragon will eventually fly down from just hearing the horn, assuming a cow is available.  Upon landing, the dragon would eat the cow, and attack the human near it, assuming it followed the natural responses of most predatorial and territorial animals.  We know it still attacks humans when summoned down by the horn as well, since it attacks us.  Clearly it has not been trained to complacency at the presence of a human.  This means, to feed it, they would have to summon it, and sacrifice a human.  This won't work, because the ONLY person allowed to use the horn, and allowed to see the dragon, is Father Kolgrim, who clearly is alive.  This means the dragon can differentiate between humans, which clearly establishes you as a threat, and Kolgrim as a "friend".  This argument supports the possibility for higher intelligence in dragons.  Another possibility is the dragon could feel emotions for Kolgrim, leading it to attack any other visitor.  If this is the case, then once again higher intelligence can be supported, as judged by your previous discussions with Kijin on his Flemeth thread.

Can't a dog do the same thing?

[Kijin]

Herr Uhl wrote...

lorvincent wrote...

-snip-

Can't a dog do the same thing?

Conditioning will work on a dog - but not on a dragon. That is the point.