163 réponses à ce sujet

[Herr Uhl]

Kijin wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

lorvincent wrote...

-snip-

Can't a dog do the same thing?

Conditioning will work on a dog - but not on a dragon. That is the point. 

Conditioning will work on a human too.

And that wasn't even the point he had. The point was that the dragon was able to differentiate between humans. I don't see that as a huge feat.

See this quote:

This means the dragon can differentiate between humans, which clearly establishes you as a threat, and Kolgrim as a "friend".  This argument supports the possibility for higher intelligence in dragons.

[Kijin]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Kijin wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

lorvincent wrote...

-snip-

Can't a dog do the same thing?

Conditioning will work on a dog - but not on a dragon. That is the point. 

Conditioning will work on a human too.

And that wasn't even the point he had. The point was that the dragon was able to differentiate between humans. I don't see that as a huge feat.

See this quote:

This means the dragon can differentiate between humans, which clearly establishes you as a threat, and Kolgrim as a "friend".  This argument supports the possibility for higher intelligence in dragons.

Reading comprehension failed - he is talking about Pavolvian conditioning.

Pavolv rings a bell - the dogs come, see the food and drool. Pavlov continues to do this - eventually, the dogs will drool when Pavlov rings the bell even if no food is present.

Kolgrim blows the horn. The dragon sees a human. If the human is Kolgrim, then the dragon will not attack. If the human is not part of the Dragon Cult, the Dragon will attack. The dragon is unaffected by classical conditioning. 

Dogs cannot resist classical conditioning - humans can. The experiment you are implicitly referring to is the Little Albert experiment. You can condition humans - but this conditioning is not permanent. They need continuous reconditioning, as the sentient mind is capable of coping and repairing itself. This is well known. If you do not recondition humans, the conditioning will fade. As I said, humans - like dragons - are unaffected by classical conditioning. Dragons are probably self-aware - like humans.

edit: In the Albert experiment, John Watson tried to condition a young boy to fear creatures that were small, furry and white. Throughout this experiment, Watson needed to recondition Albert, as the conditioning would quickly fade. After the experiment ended, Albert lost his fear.

Modifié par Kijin, 02 avril 2011 - 06:02 .

[lorvincent]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Conditioning will work on a human too.

And that wasn't even the point he had. The point was that the dragon was able to differentiate between humans. I don't see that as a huge feat.

See this quote:

This means the dragon can differentiate between humans, which clearly establishes you as a threat, and Kolgrim as a "friend".  This argument supports the possibility for higher intelligence in dragons.

It was my point, actually.  Kijin got it right. And sentience means nothing when it comes to conditioning in this instance.

Clue in: I am saying conditioning DOES NOT WORK because the dragon will EAT EVERY PERSON DURING ITS LEARNING CURVE!

In other words, Kolgrim COULD NOT be the only person who visits the dragon.  It just doesn't work.

Good try though.

(P.S. on the subject of classical conditioning, a sentient creature can resist it, which is why we opt for operant conditioning when working with humans instead.  Either way, it doesn't matter, because the situation does not fit in with the information provided in Dragon Age.  I hope this is clear enough for you to understand)

Modifié par lorvincent, 02 avril 2011 - 11:50 .

[Obadiah]

Draconic sentience is an interesting theory, but I think it is more likely that the High Dragon and Archdemon blood act as a conduit to some spirit/demon/deity. The dragons may simply be pets in contact with said spirits and so act on their behalf, but are not themselves sentient.

[Cavalier753]

High dragons have about the same sentience as a dolphin.

http://dragonage.wik...om/wiki/Dragons

[Kijin]

QuintusVolcae wrote...

High dragons have about the same sentience as a dolphin.

http://dragonage.wik...om/wiki/Dragons

Read through this thread. Then read through this thread. We have already discussed that to death. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that dragons are as sentient as humans. If you can't come up with an argument, don't bother posting.

Modifié par Kijin, 03 avril 2011 - 10:06 .

[Cavalier753]

Just saying. Don't need to get angry. Im actually interested to see where you conversation goes.

[Kijin]

QuintusVolcae wrote...

Just saying. Don't need to get angry. Im actually interested to see where you conversation goes.

Fine, I'll humour you. Read this codex. Quote: "Is there more to draconic intelligence than we have heretofore guessed at? No member of a dragon cult has ever been taken alive, and what accounts exist from the days of the Nevarran hunters record only mad rants and impossible tales of godhood. With dragons only recently reappearing and still incredibly rare, we may never know the truth, but the question remains."

The matter remains unclear in the lore - so yes, the topic is up for debate. 

[Cavalier753]

2 things. 1: I agree, dragons are most likely sentient. 2: you seem to use that quote a lot in this and other threads. Do continue friend.

[Kijin]

QuintusVolcae wrote...

2 things. 1: I agree, dragons are most likely sentient. 2: you seem to use that quote a lot in this and other threads. Do continue friend.

You want an argument? Fine. 

Kijin wrote...

Well, that's not really a theory - it's fact. the Old Gods were worshipped as dragons. Dumat was worshipped in the Tevinter Imperium as the Dragon of Silence. Urthemiel, the Archdemon of the Fifth Blight, was worshipped as the Dragon of Beauty. 

This presents a problem for the Chantry's lore - it is all but confirmed that the Old Gods were Dragons. However, according to the Chantry, the Old Gods mislead the people into abandoning the Maker. Yet the Chantry also claims that Dragons may not be sentient. 

If the Old Gods were Dragons, then they must have been sentient enough to convince an entire civilization to worship them. If they were not sentient, then how did the Old God religion form in the first place and why didn't the dragons just kill everything around them like the mindless beasts that they were? 

All of the myths surrounding the Old Gods only make sense if the dragons were sentient. 

Edit: Forgot to include a link - sorry about that.

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Old_gods

I have made many arguments defending dragon sentience. You have yet to make a single one. 

[Cavalier753]

I'm not looking to make an argument. I just want to see where this goes friend. I wasn't trying insult you or belittle you in any way. I just like hearing what others have to say.

[Blacklash93]

It's possible that dragons were sentient in ancient Thedas when the old gods ruled, but perhaps something happened to them after the old gods were imprisoned that muddled their intelect. Maybe the old gods are dragons who were born intelligent among their primal kind. There are a lot of possibilities.

I believe dragons posess a nature we haven't seen of them yet, but that doesn't have to be sentience.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 03 avril 2011 - 10:44 .

[Kijin]

QuintusVolcae wrote...

I'm not looking to make an argument. I just want to see where this goes friend. I wasn't trying insult you or belittle you in any way. I just like hearing what others have to say.

I'm not insulted. On this forum, we engage in discussion and debate. I am not interested in lecturing to you, but I would be willing to have a discussion - provided that you actually present some arguments. If you want to hear someone's opinion on the matter, fair enough - read through the forum.

But don't ask for somebody's opinion and expect them to oblige, when you have yet to provide your own view.

Modifié par Kijin, 03 avril 2011 - 10:45 .

[Kijin]

Blacklash93 wrote...

It's possible that dragons were sentient in ancient Thedas when the old gods ruled, but perhaps something happened to them after the old gods were imprisoned that muddled their intelect. Maybe the old gods are dragons who were born intelligent among their primal kind. There are a lot of possibilities.

I believe dragons posess a nature we haven't seen of them yet, but that doesn't have to be sentience.

So you want clearer evidence that demonstrates dragon sentience? I am happy to oblige - in fact I already have:

Kijin wrote...

Pavolv rings a bell - the dogs come, see the food and drool. Pavlov continues to do this - eventually, the dogs will drool when Pavlov rings the bell even if no food is present.

Kolgrim blows the horn. The dragon sees a human. If the human is Kolgrim, then the dragon will not attack. If the human is not part of the Dragon Cult, the Dragon will attack. The dragon is unaffected by classical conditioning.

Dogs cannot resist classical conditioning - humans can. The experiment you are implicitly referring to is the Little Albert experiment. You can condition humans - but this conditioning is not permanent. They need continuous reconditioning, as the sentient mind is capable of coping and repairing itself. This is well known. If you do not recondition humans, the conditioning will fade. As I said, humans - like dragons - are unaffected by classical conditioning. Dragons are probably self-aware - like humans.

edit: In the Albert experiment, John Watson tried to condition a young boy to fear creatures that were small, furry and white. Throughout this experiment, Watson needed to recondition Albert, as the conditioning would quickly fade. After the experiment ended, Albert lost his fear.

To be fair, I was clarifying Lorvincent's argument. He provided further clarification in a post made after that one. 

[Cavalier753]

Okay, I wasn't quite sure what you were saying, but I get it.

Dragons are sentient. Why? Because how else would a dragon have a cult that lives so close without tearing them all into bloody ribbons? They obviously have to have some form of thought process which allows them to understand, " oh, these guys are treating me like a god. I shouldn't eat them! " the conditioning thing is a good idea, but I'm not so sure. Perhaps the dragon had a telepathic ability to speak to others sort of like the archdemon can with the darkspawn, although that could be due to the taint. She figured Kolgrim's ancestor was the leader and struck a deal with him. The ancestor, most likely thinking the dragon was divine, agreed to the deal. Protect the dragon and her kin and she will grant them dragon-like abilities, or Reaver abilities. I wrote a fan-fix which is similar to this idea, actually.

[Kijin]

QuintusVolcae wrote...

Okay, I wasn't quite sure what you were saying, but I get it.

Dragons are sentient. Why? Because how else would a dragon have a cult that lives so close without tearing them all into bloody ribbons? They obviously have to have some form of thought process which allows them to understand, " oh, these guys are treating me like a god. I shouldn't eat them! " the conditioning thing is a good idea, but I'm not so sure. Perhaps the dragon had a telepathic ability to speak to others sort of like the archdemon can with the darkspawn, although that could be due to the taint. She figured Kolgrim's ancestor was the leader and struck a deal with him. The ancestor, most likely thinking the dragon was divine, agreed to the deal. Protect the dragon and her kin and she will grant them dragon-like abilities, or Reaver abilities. I wrote a fan-fix which is similar to this idea, actually.

Much better. 

The conditioning argument was a defense of the sentience argument. Some believed that Kolgrim was 'training' the dragon using his horn, much like what Pavlov did to his dogs. Lorvincent and I used the conditioning argument to demonstrate that the High Dragon was unaffected. 

Kolgrim and the other members of the cult all took part in a ceremony, which included the ritual consumption of dragon's blood. This ritual conveyed supernatural abilities onto anyone who took part: "In exchange, the high dragon seem to permit those cultists to kill a small number of those young in order to feast on draconic blood. That blood is said to have a number of strange long-term effects, including bestowing greater strength and endurance, as well as an increased desire to kill. It may breed insanity as well." If the dragon is able to communicate with Kolgrim (which she probably was able to do), then it was due to the drinking of the dragon's blood. 

Interesting that you bring up the Archdemon. The Old Gods themselves were probably dragons - so their ability to communicate with the darkspawn is quite telling. This is not anecdotal evidence - if you have ever played the Darkspawn Chronicles, you'll know that the Archdemon conveys specific orders to the Darkspawn. It is literally a voice in their head. Dragons must be sentient, then - what is the opposing argument? That the taint grants sentience? Why would the Maker curse an animal with self-awareness? People often claim that Old Gods are the exception - okay fine, but why are they the exception? If the Old Gods are truly different from the other dragons, how did they become self aware? 

Questions to think about.

[Cavalier753]

I brought up the archdemon/old god because I had played the drarkspawn chronicles. I thought that because the archdemon was able to order the darkspawn around, I thought that dragons could possibly do the same, but again, archdemons might only be able to talk to darkspawn because of the taint, because darkspawn aren't very smart to begin with.

[Kijin]

If Dragons are sentient, then they are capable of casting magic (as all sentient races can cast magic, except for the dwarves). So, anything can be done through the use of magic - but the ability of the archdemon to communicate with the darkspawn could be because the archdemons used to be Old Gods. It's not clear if the Old Gods were powerful because they were Gods, or merely because they were ancient dragons who had been practicing magic for thousands of years.

If I remember my Awakening lore, Darkspawn who are still afflicted by the taint are incapable of rational thought - they first must free themselves from the clutches of the Archdemon (I've only played through Awakening once, so I could be wrong). The Darkspawn you encounter in DA2 theoretically should be intelligent, but Hawke never has the chance to talk with one - so who knows.

[PantheraOnca]

I think darkspawn are non-intelligent until something happens (like the one-off event or whatever made the architect or the riitual he performs to make the smart ones).

[Kijin]

That is the canon explanation for the Darkspawn

[Blacklash93]

Darkspawn should be intelligent as a species, but the call of the old gods numbs their minds from birth, making any intellectual development impossible.

Thus they are nothing but primal beasts and puppets as long as the old gods live. The Architect found a way around that, of course.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 04 avril 2011 - 12:00 .

[Kijin]

Well if you accept the Chantry's version of the Blight, the Darkspawn should not be intelligent, as they are intended to be a punishment for the people of Thedas. 

I would like to the Darkspawn become their own race in the future, completely unattached from the influence of the Archdemons. That would completely change the balance of power in Thedas.

Modifié par Kijin, 04 avril 2011 - 12:05 .

[Cavalier753]

I think the darkspawn were a race like any other, like humans, elves, dwarves, etc. They just showed up in the deep roads and roflstomped the dwarves.

[Kijin]

Actually the Darkspawn first appeared during the First Blight, with the rise of the first Archdemon. Before that, they never really existed.

Darkspawn are bred by the broodmothers - which requires that a female of any race be subjected to the Taint. Without the Taint, the Darkspawn will die - and the Taint first appeared when the Tevinter Magisters approached the Golden City.

[Cavalier753]

Ah, but how do we know that isn't just the Chantry telling you how it is, with it not being true? The darkspawn could have simply never been seen, and then they found an old god and tainted it? The dwarves didn't mine everywhere you know. And the chantry could be BSing us just to get people to believe the Tevinters are evil and to join the andrastian chantry. They're not the most honest you know.