163 réponses à ce sujet

[Kijin]

Obadiah wrote...

Kijin wrote...
The human gland that used to receive phermones has been turned off in the human body for millions of years - it's evolutionary, so no phermones do not affect humans and have not done so for a long ass time. This is a scientific fact. If a lion does not eat me, is it my natural inclination to assume that the lion is a diety? If someone is not eaten by a dragon, that person will probably thank the Maker as that is the dominant religion - especially if their cult is there to protect the Ashes of Andraste. 

The page you quoted shows pheromones affect women. Anyway I editted my post to clarify my statement. The effect may not be a 180 on someone's personality - it may just make them high and give them the impression of a divine experience.

Kijin wrote...
Also, the Cultists do not drink the blood from an injured dragon - This Codex makes it clear: "Members of a dragon cult live in the same lair as a high dragon, nurturing and protecting its defenseless young. In exchange, the high dragon seem to permit those cultists to kill a small number of those young in order to feast on draconic blood." 

When the cultists are encountered, at that point they aren't drinking injured blood. I'm just giving an example of how the practise would start. Once the practise of drinking blood becomes institutionalized, the next step, when the cultists are out of blood, is to sacrifice one of the young. If the dragon doesn't fry them to a crisp, then maybe that practise becomes institutionalized as well.

Kijin wrote...
In terms of the Dragon Abominations, it has been documented that members of the Dragon Cult claim to hear the dragon whispering to them. According to your theory, any time someone hears a dragon whispering to them, it is the work of an Abomination - but this would mean that most dragons are indeed Abominations, due to the widespread nature of Dragon Cults. As I said - this is ridiculous. Somebody would have noticed. Also note that demons aren't known for being subtle. 

Ok, so what are the possible explanations for hearing whispering in one's head:
1) Telepathic communication. If so from whom:
- High Dragon
- Some other entity (spirit, demon, etc...)
2)  Mental instability
3)  Hallucinations - probably brought on by taking some chemical, like something in the High Dragon blood.

I like the idea that the High Dragon blood is actually a conduit to some other spiritual/demonic entity because I find that the most interesting.

No, actually it does not show that women are affected by phermones. That is circumstantial evidence - when women live together, there is a chance that their menstrual cycles could synchronize. The study failed to demonstrate that phermones were responsible, which led to the conclusion that there was no peer-reviewed study that demonstrated that phermones have an influence over human behavior. The study that pages cites is the best evidence for phermones affecting human behavior - and it does not conclusively prove anything. 
...Reading comprehension fail. 

More importantly - you have no evidence to suggest that this is occurring. Phermones have not  been mentioned once in Dragon Age - this is pure speculation and you know it. Lorvincent and I have taken the time to do a ton of research into Dragon Age lore. You clearly have not. If you want to come up with your own theory - fine by me, but defend it using lore and not pseudo-scientific bull**** like phermones affecting humans. 

You have this completely ridiculous scenario built into your head. Why would a group of people drink the blood of a dragon without prompting? The ceremonies and rituals involved are too institutionalized and too widespread throughout Thedas for it to be coincidence. The Cult members must have a source that tells them about these rituals. Now, these Dragon Cults exist in parts of Thedas that were never conquered by the Tevinter Imperium, so evidently these cults are not the result of old Tevinter mythology. And there is no evidence to suggest that abominations are responsible for every single Dragon Cult. There needs to be another explanation - how about this? Dragons are sentient and can whisper into the minds of men. 

You bring up four potential sources for hearing voices in your head. Dragon Age is a FANTASY game, so we can disregard the last two. If someone is hearing a voice in their head, then it has a supernatural or magical cause. As I have said, Dragon Cults used to be widespread, and they cannot all be the work of demons. More importantly, Dragon Cults only form around High Dragons who are trying to create their own nest - demons exist solely for their own benefit, so why would they try to reproduce? Remember, the Cultists drink the dragon's blood in EXCHANGE FOR DEFENDING THE HIGH DRAGON'S YOUNG. The High Dragon permits these cults to exist because they defend her young. There is no possible way that an Abomination could be responsible for a Dragon Cult. 

[aimichan]

So, not to bring this discussion off topic of pheromones and its affects on humans within Dragon Age, and I'm unsure if anyone has already theorized this, but, what if the Old Gods are really gods?

Someone stated in a previous comment that the Chantry could be making things up, as is the right of the winner in war. Oftentimes, history is written favorably for the winner; the loser loses their culture and history, and technically, the Chantry did start out as a 'cult' and became a religion because of Orlais. Meaning, it's a new religion that might not even be real. Perhaps the Maker is not what the Chantry preaches him to be. Perhaps the world was truly created differently, but the Chantry's version is all we know now because the others were lost.

When I think about it, the Maker seems to be more like Fen'Harel, the one who trapped the gods and took up the 'throne', so to speak. After all, humans did not exist for a long time. It was only elves and dwarves. Humans came later from Par Vollen. Maybe the 'Maker' (a.k.a. Fen'Harel) created humans when he was thinking of his dastardly plan to take over as the only god around. Thus, they have a later appearance in Thedas.

Then, as the codex entry states, the Old Gods we see are tainted, so perhaps they aren't actually dragon-like at all. Maybe that's what an Old God turns into when tainted? Humans into hurlocks, elves into shrieks, dwarves into genlocks, qunari into ogres, and old gods into dragons? Especially so since the taint would have come from a fellow god, thus being able to affect each other.

After all, the game is supposed to be a moving form of history. So it would make sense that the Chantry could be covering up old truths/beliefs with their own doctrine. So we can't ever really know the truth, particularly due to the loss of the city of Arlathan and the dwarven thaigs. To add to this, there was the primeval thaig that even the shapers have no knowledge of. Once again, lost history.

[Obadiah]

Kijin wrote...
...
The study that pages cites is the best evidence for phermones affecting human behavior - and it does not conclusively prove anything. 
...Reading comprehension fail. 

You quoted an article that gives the best evidence of pheromones affecting humans, just to say there's no "conclusive proof" of it, and that proves pheromones couldn't be affecting humans in Thedas? I believe the failure in reading comprehension here is on your part.

Kijin wrote...
More importantly - you have no evidence to suggest that this is occurring. Phermones have not  been mentioned once in Dragon Age - this is pure speculation and you know it.

Of course it hasn't been mentioned. This is supposed to be a midieval setting. Of course I'm speculating. It's all speculation until we get a definitive answer from the devs, and even then they might pull a "hold on something else was REALLY happening" explanation later on.

Kijin wrote...

Lorvincent and I have taken the time to do a ton of research into Dragon Age lore. You clearly have not. If you want to come up with your own theory - fine by me, but defend it using lore and not pseudo-scientific bull**** like phermones affecting humans. 

So maybe it's not pheromones, maybe it's just the scent of dragon sweat that makes some people high or bonkers.

Kijin wrote...
You have this completely ridiculous scenario built into your head. Why would a group of people drink the blood of a dragon without prompting? The ceremonies and rituals involved are too institutionalized and too widespread throughout Thedas for it to be coincidence. The Cult members must have a source that tells them about these rituals. Now, these Dragon Cults exist in parts of Thedas that were never conquered by the Tevinter Imperium, so evidently these cults are not the result of old Tevinter mythology. And there is no evidence to suggest that abominations are responsible for every single Dragon Cult. There needs to be another explanation - how about this? Dragons are sentient and can whisper into the minds of men. 

You bring up four potential sources for hearing voices in your head. Dragon Age is a FANTASY game, so we can disregard the last two. If someone is hearing a voice in their head, then it has a supernatural or magical cause.

DA2 has a serial killer who hears voices in his head and is mentally unstable, so that explanation is clearly in the game.

Kijin wrote...
As I have said, Dragon Cults used to be widespread, and they cannot all be the work of demons. More importantly, Dragon Cults only form around High Dragons who are trying to create their own nest - demons exist solely for their own benefit, so why would they try to reproduce? Remember, the Cultists drink the dragon's blood in EXCHANGE FOR DEFENDING THE HIGH DRAGON'S YOUNG. The High Dragon permits these cults to exist because they defend her young. There is no possible way that an Abomination could be responsible for a Dragon Cult. 

My theory isn't that all High Dragon cults are the result of High Dragon abominations. It's that the High Dragons and humans have a natural symbiotic relationship that others call the Dragon Cult. The High Dragon abominations result in actualy sentient-looking dragons (the Old Gods), the same way a tree abomination resulted in rhyming tree in the forest or the crazed Sylvians.

Modifié par Obadiah, 04 avril 2011 - 04:50 .

[Obadiah]

Opps... double post.

Modifié par Obadiah, 04 avril 2011 - 04:32 .

[Kijin]

aimichan wrote...

So, not to bring this discussion off topic of pheromones and its affects on humans within Dragon Age, and I'm unsure if anyone has already theorized this, but, what if the Old Gods are really gods?

Someone stated in a previous comment that the Chantry could be making things up, as is the right of the winner in war. Oftentimes, history is written favorably for the winner; the loser loses their culture and history, and technically, the Chantry did start out as a 'cult' and became a religion because of Orlais. Meaning, it's a new religion that might not even be real. Perhaps the Maker is not what the Chantry preaches him to be. Perhaps the world was truly created differently, but the Chantry's version is all we know now because the others were lost.

When I think about it, the Maker seems to be more like Fen'Harel, the one who trapped the gods and took up the 'throne', so to speak. After all, humans did not exist for a long time. It was only elves and dwarves. Humans came later from Par Vollen. Maybe the 'Maker' (a.k.a. Fen'Harel) created humans when he was thinking of his dastardly plan to take over as the only god around. Thus, they have a later appearance in Thedas.

Then, as the codex entry states, the Old Gods we see are tainted, so perhaps they aren't actually dragon-like at all. Maybe that's what an Old God turns into when tainted? Humans into hurlocks, elves into shrieks, dwarves into genlocks, qunari into ogres, and old gods into dragons? Especially so since the taint would have come from a fellow god, thus being able to affect each other.

After all, the game is supposed to be a moving form of history. So it would make sense that the Chantry could be covering up old truths/beliefs with their own doctrine. So we can't ever really know the truth, particularly due to the loss of the city of Arlathan and the dwarven thaigs. To add to this, there was the primeval thaig that even the shapers have no knowledge of. Once again, lost history.

Believe me, the phermone discussion is off topic - and hopefully over. 

It is possible that the Maker does not exist, and that all of their theology is made up. However, this does present a challenge when discussing it - we rely on the Chantry for much of our understanding of Thedas. If we are to assume that the Chantry is wrong, then talking about  Dragon Age lore becomes a lot more difficult. If we disregard all of the Lore written by Chantry writers, then we have just thrown most of the lore out of the window. Although I agree that it is possible that the Chantry is wrong, for the sake of argument I have to believe that at least their scholars must be partially right. 

It is interesting that you bring up Par Vollen; the Quanari were said to have landed on Par Vollen. It has been all but confirmed that there exist multiple continents in the world of Dragon Age - we only know about one of them (Thedas). Presumably, the Quanari came from one of these continents, as did humanity years ago. So it is possible that humanity has lived on other continents for millenia, before making their way to Thedas. 

I do like the idea that Fen'Harel is the Maker, though. It seems strange that immediately after Fen'Harel seals away the other Gods, the cult of the Maker emerges and Fen'Harel completely disappears. Considering he is a Trickster God, I would not put the deception past him. If Fen'Harel really is the Maker, then why did he "abandon" humanity, when he worked so hard to become the sole God of Thedas? 

As the Original Post indicates, before they were Tainted the Old Gods were worshipped by the Tevinter Imperium as Dragon Gods - Dumat (who eventually became the first Archdemon) was called by the Tevinter Imperium, "The Dragon of Silence" Urthemiel, the fifth Archdemon was worshipped as the Dragon of Beauty. They all were worshipped as Gods who took the form of Dragons. We have yet to find any depictions of the Old Gods as anything but Dragons. Unfortunately, all of these Old Gods were depicted as men, which is a problem, as male dragons never develop any wings, yet the Fifth Archdemon clearly appeared in the form of a High Dragon (who can only be female). 

I completely agree that a considerable amount of history has been lost - but it's difficult to argue. It has been lost, so we have no idea what that history contained. To me, that is the most interesting part of the game - but I digress. I am absolutely sure that there is more to the Maker and the Old Gods then we know, and I am almost certain that the Old Gods were incredibly powerful - but it is difficult to know what a 'God' truly is in Dragon Age, as we have yet to receive confirmation that a divine being even exists in the Dragon Age universe.

[lorvincent]

Thats it.

THE FOLLOWING IS OBADIAH'S DIRECT POST:

Obadiah wrote...

lorvincent wrote...
...
The denial of the evidence for sentient dragons in DA represents a perfect example of functional fixedness in the average consumer.  This version of a sentient dragon doesn't fit the schema you have in your mind for a sentient dragon, so you ignore the indicators.

Lastly, WHY IS THIS STILL AN ARGUMENT?

"Dragons are cunning to the point of having deductive reasoning, arguably even sentient, without having the ability to communicate or possess a civilization. They are like dolphins -- that will eat you."
- David Gaider

Clearly the theory is justified.

If the humans of Thedas instinctively are in awe of dragons and did evolve in a symbiotic relationship with them originally, pheromones could easily have that effect of pushing them into back into that relationship - especially if the dragon participates in it, the way the High Dragon did with Kolgrim. Once a human bows down (or maybe just doesn't run and doesn't attack), and a dragon lands in front of him, and rather than eat him stares at him for a while, that may well be enough to convince the humans that dragons are gods.

Wolves, cheetas, and hyenas are cunning - that doesn't meant they're sentient. If clever animals do fit your definition of a sentient being then we're discussing different things. At any rate, I believe the Dragons may not be "highly intelligent" and just clever animals.

Now the humans drink High Dragon blood they start hearing whispers. They have visions of the dragon and they appear gain extra power from the blood. Is the High Dragon speaking to them, or are the cultists now in contact with some other entity subtely directing them as well as the dragon?

END OF OBADIAH'S POST

Is it just me, or did you IGNORE WHAT YOU QUOTED from me? 

ONE LAST TIME:

"Dragons are cunning to the point of having deductive reasoning, arguably even sentient, without having the ability to communicate or possess a civilization. They are like dolphins -- that will eat you"
-D. Gaider

"Deductive reasoning, also called deductive logic, is reasoning which constructs or evaluates deductive arguments. Deductive arguments are attempts to show that a conclusion necessarily follows from a set of premises or hypotheses."
-Wikipedia Excerpt

Reasoning requires a level of self-awareness, which in turn is defined scientifically as conciousness.  You have spoken of the dragon as if it is capable of emotions.

Definition: Reasoning
1. The quality or state of being sentient; consciousness.2. Feeling as distinguished from perception or thought.

Kijin already dealt with this in the plethora of links to other threads he has provided.  DID YOU ACTUALLY EVEN BOTHER TO READ THEM?

Deductive reasoning of why Obadiah is arguing a point already PROVEN WRONG:

1) Obadiah has responded in ignorance of links and responses countering his own statements.
2) Therefore, Obadiah is either A. ignoring the information, or B. too lazy to read
3) If, "A" is true, Obadiah is in denial. If, "B" is true, Obadiah doesn't actually care what other people think
4) Given the following, one or more of the bellow must be true:
            i) we can assume Obadiah just WANTS TO BE RIGHT regardless of logic
            ii) we can assume Obadiah is a troll


I don't have a problem with the belief that there may be a symbiotic relationship between humans and a dragon, as that is evident from watching it, whether the dragon is sentient or not.

What bugs me is, you refuse to even accept the possibility of sentience, and you ignore the clear attempts the game developers and LEAD WRITER (I even quoted him) have made to suggest this possibility.

Believe what you want, but keep an open mind when presented with evidence.  Especially when there is a lack of evidence to the contrary.

[Kijin]

Obadiah wrote...

You quoted an article that gives the best evidence of pheromones affecting humans, just to say there's no "conclusive proof" of it, and that proves pheromones couldn't be affecting humans in Thedas? I believe the failure in reading comprehension here is on your part.

No it's not. The study being quoted demonstrates that women living together could have their menstrual cycles align. This alignment does not always occur, and the alignment is far from perfect. The study failed to demonstrate that phermones were responsible - there is no hard evidence that demonstrates that humans can be affected by phermones. None at all. Even the very best evidence for phermones affecting humans fails to provide any evidence that phermones were the cause. Phermones do not affect humans - this is a scientific fact. 

Obadiah wrote...

Of course it hasn't been mentioned. This is supposed to be a midieval setting. Of course I'm speculating. It's all speculation until we get a definitive answer from the devs, and even then they might pull a "hold on something else was REALLY happening" explanation later on.

But you see, I am not speculating. David Gaider has confirmed that dragons are capable of deductive reasoning. Therefore, dragons are capable of making rational decisions. High Dragons need to leave the nest on occassion to find food - when they do so, their nest is vulnerable to attack from Dragon Hunters. To avoid this problem, some High Dragons have decided to allow Dragon Cults to form. The Cultists defend her nest, and all she has to do is sacrifice one of her children to them - High Dragons typically lay hundreds of eggs, so this is not a large sacrifice. That is my argument - it is backed up by numerous codexes (Which I have posted already), developer quotes and the opinions of in-game characters. Your entire theory is based upon phermones.

Obadiah wrote...

So maybe it's not pheromones, maybe it's just the scent of dragon sweat that makes some people high or bonkers.

...The only reason why dragon sweat would affect humans is if it contained phermones - and I have already proven that  phermones do not affect humans, much less reptilian phermones. 

Obadiah wrote...

DA2 has a serial killer who hears voices in his head and is mentally unstable, so that explanation is clearly in the game.

It's not insanity, because all of the Cult Leaders say the same thing  - they all speak of Godhood. The Dragon whisperings are so common and the messages are so similar, that they cannot all be caused by insanity. If they were merely insane, the ramblings of the Cult Leaders would all be different. The fact that they are delivering the same message clearly means that they are receiving the same message. More importantly, they only start to ramble after they drink dragon's blood - and we know that drinking the blood conveys other benefits, such as increased strength and endurance. 

Obadiah wrote...

My theory isn't that all High Dragon cults are the result of High Dragon abominations. It's that the High Dragons and humans have a natural symbiotic relationship that others call the Dragon Cult. The High Dragon abominations result in actualy sentient-looking dragons (the Old Gods), the same way a tree abomination resulted in rhyming tree in the forest or the crazed Sylvians.

Dragons and humans have a natural symbiotic relationship - which is why Dragon Hunters nearly killed every single dragon on Thedas. How about this: dragons are capable of making rational choices, ergo they let the Cultists form a Cult, as the High Dragon felt that it benefited her. She did a cost-benefit analysis and realized that the advantages of hosting a Dragon Cult outweigh the disadvantages. Funnily enough, my argument is backed by mountains of evidence - so no, I am not the one speculating. 

[Obadiah]

lorvincent wrote...
...
What bugs me is, you refuse to even accept the possibility of sentience, and you ignore the clear attempts the game developers and LEAD WRITER (I even quoted him) have made to suggest this possibility.

Wait, when did I do that? Is that what these walls of text are about? I was simply presenting my pet theory of what the High Dragon and Old Gods are.

I don't think the Dragons are highly intelligent sentient beings, but they very well may be. I just think it's more interesting in my version, which I don't think anything in the lore (most of which is questionable POV anyway) contradicts.

[Kijin]

Obadiah wrote...

lorvincent wrote...
...
What bugs me is, you refuse to even accept the possibility of sentience, and you ignore the clear attempts the game developers and LEAD WRITER (I even quoted him) have made to suggest this possibility.

Wait, when did I do that? Is that what these walls of text are about? I was simply presenting my pet theory of what the High Dragon and Old Gods are.

I don't think the Dragons are highly intelligent sentient beings, but they very well may be. I just think it's more interesting in my version, which I don't think anything in the lore (most of which is questionable POV anyway) contradicts.

Seriously? The quote has been posted several times.

http://forums.biowar...5&forum=84&sp=0

"Dragons are cunning to the point of having deductive reasoning, arguably even sentience, without having the ability to communicate or possess a civilization. They are like dolphins -- that will eat you."

Dragons are capable of deductive reasoning, ergo they can make rational choices. High Dragons choose to let the Dragon Cults form, because they realize that the Cultists can protect their young while she is off hunting. Your pet theory has no validity to it. More importantly, you haven't been reading what we've been posting, so evidently arguing with you is a waste of time. 

Edit: Your 'pet theory' involves phermones, and a natural symbiotic relationship - all of which is unneeded for Dragon Cults to form, as Lorvincent and I have demonstrated repeatedly.

Modifié par Kijin, 04 avril 2011 - 06:21 .

[Obadiah]

Kijin wrote...

No it's not. The study being quoted demonstrates that women living together could have their menstrual cycles align. This alignment does not always occur, and the alignment is far from perfect. The study failed to demonstrate that phermones were responsible - there is no hard evidence that demonstrates that humans can be affected by phermones. None at all.

This is a quote from the article

Neuroscience: Exploring the brain Page 264
...
Nevertheless, depending on the donor's time in her menstral cycle, the recipient's cycle was either shortened or lengthened. These dramatic results are the best evidence yet that humans can communicate with pheromones.
...

I don't think this proves pheromones have no impact on humans, and to repeatedly say that this article shows there is "n evidence" is wrong.

Modifié par Obadiah, 04 avril 2011 - 06:27 .

[Obadiah]

Kijin wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

lorvincent wrote...
...
What bugs me is, you refuse to even accept the possibility of sentience, and you ignore the clear attempts the game developers and LEAD WRITER (I even quoted him) have made to suggest this possibility.

Wait, when did I do that? Is that what these walls of text are about? I was simply presenting my pet theory of what the High Dragon and Old Gods are.

I don't think the Dragons are highly intelligent sentient beings, but they very well may be. I just think it's more interesting in my version, which I don't think anything in the lore (most of which is questionable POV anyway) contradicts.

Seriously? The quote has been posted several times.

http://forums.biowar...5&forum=84&sp=0

"Dragons are cunning to the point of having deductive reasoning, arguably even sentience, without having the ability to communicate or possess a civilization. They are like dolphins -- that will eat you."
...

The quote says "arguably sentient" not that they are sentient, yet your argument is that because the dragons use deductive reasoning they are sentient? I think the two don't necessarily go hand in hand.

[Kijin]

Obadiah wrote...

The quote says "arguably sentient" not that they are sentient, yet your argument is that because the dragons use deductive reasoning they are sentient? I think the two don't necessarily go hand in hand.

...
Nevertheless, depending on the donor's time in her menstral cycle, the recipient's cycle was either shortened or lengthened. These dramatic results are the best evidence yet that humans can communicate with peromones.
...

Neuroscience: Exploring the brain Page 264
I don't think this proves pheromones have no impact on humans, and to repeatedly say that this article shows there is "n evidence" is wrong.

You are only reading a section of the page, and ignoring the rest of it. Read the entire page - immediately after discussing that study, the author goes on to state that no hard evidence exists. The study is interesting, but it is merely circumstantial evidence. The study demonstrated that the menstral cycle was shortened or lengthened - but not that the phermones were responsible. It is circumstantial evidence - as I said, no hard evidence exists. And if you knew anything about menstrual cycles, you'd know that there are many causes for fluctuations to occur in a menstrual cycle. The study failed to discount these other possibilities - so it is merely circumstantial evidence. The only thing that study proved - is that fluctuations can occur within a woman's menstrual cycle, which was already known. 

Obadiah wrote...

The quote says "arguably sentient" not that they are sentient, yet your argument is that because the dragons use deductive reasoning they are sentient? I think the two don't necessarily go hand in hand

No, my argument is that Dragons use deductive reasoning because David Gaider said they use deductive reasoning.

I don't need to speculate on that point - it's fact. Dragons use deductive reasoning. This means that Dragons are capable of making rational choices - like whether or not to accept a group of humans as her personal cultists. 

Deductive reasoning is a learned discipline - no creature is born with it, it must be taught. If Dragons are capable of using deductive reasoning, that means they are capable of learning how to use Deductive Reasoning. For more information, consult what Lorvincent already posted:

lorvincent wrote...

"Deductive reasoning, also called deductive logic, is reasoning which constructs or evaluates deductive arguments. Deductive arguments are attempts to show that a conclusion necessarily follows from a set of premises or hypotheses."
-Wikipedia Excerpt

Reasoning requires a level of self-awareness, which in turn is defined scientifically as conciousness. You have spoken of the dragon as if it is capable of emotions.

Definition: Reasoning
1. The quality or state of being sentient; consciousness.2. Feeling as distinguished from perception or thought.

The fact that dragons need to be taught deductive reasoning indicates that they are sentient. If you don't believe me, try teaching deductive reasoning to your dog.

Modifié par Kijin, 04 avril 2011 - 06:52 .

[Obadiah]

Kijin wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

The quote says "arguably sentient" not that they are sentient, yet your argument is that because the dragons use deductive reasoning they are sentient? I think the two don't necessarily go hand in hand.

...
Nevertheless, depending on the donor's time in her menstral cycle, the recipient's cycle was either shortened or lengthened. These dramatic results are the best evidence yet that humans can communicate with peromones.
...

Neuroscience: Exploring the brain Page 264
I don't think this proves pheromones have no impact on humans, and to repeatedly say that this article shows there is "n evidence" is wrong.

You are only reading a section of the page, and ignoring the rest of it. Read the entire page - immediately after discussing that study, the author goes on to state that no hard evidence exists.

Neuroscience: Exploring the brain Page 264
...
But there is not yet any hard evidence for human pheromones that might mediate sexual attraction (for members of either sex) via innate mechanism.
...

That sentence specifically refers to sexual attraction, not the general statement that humans respond to pheromones, which is something clearly in evidence from the earlier paragraph.

Kijin wrote...
The study failed to discount these other possibilities - so it is merely circumstantial evidence. The only thing that study proved - is that fluctuations can occur within a woman's menstrual cycle, which was already known. 

The study probably had a control for that.

Modifié par Obadiah, 04 avril 2011 - 07:07 .

[lorvincent]

Another comment on the old BioWare forums compares the intelligence of a dolphin to a 9 year old. Now that is a simplification of the mental status of a dolphin, but sums it up nicely.

I am finding using the term sentient can be vague to some people, as it can express anything from complex highly intelligent creatures, to fairly low intelligent creatures that show awareness behaviours. Of course we are trying to express it in terms of higher intelligence, and I stand by that belief when talking of these dragons.

I think the real argument we should be having then, is not whether the dragon knows it has a cult, but whether it was clever enough to manipulate communities into its personal cults. It is an argument about HOW FAR a dragon's intelligence extends rather than sentience. If we accept sentience as a self-awareness and emotional awareness coupled with the capability to reason, we can assume that explains a dragon.

The real question left is how smart it is.

That remains up to interpretation, and if they are not as intelligent as I or kijin propose, that leads us to question, "how do the Old Gods differ?"

[Obadiah]

Kijin wrote...
No, my argument is that Dragons use deductive reasoning because David Gaider said they use deductive reasoning.

I don't need to speculate on that point - it's fact. Dragons use deductive reasoning. This means that Dragons are capable of making rational choices - like whether or not to accept a group of humans as her personal cultists. 

Deductive reasoning is a learned discipline - no creature is born with it, it must be taught.

[If Dragons are capable of using deductive reasoning, that means they are capable of learning how to use Deductive Reasoning.
...

If this was what DG meant when he made the statement, why then why say the dragons are "arguably sentient" if such a state of High Dragon intellect was meant to be definitive? I don't think DG's statement on deducation should lead to the conclusion that dragons are sentient, since even he was ambivalent about it.

Modifié par Obadiah, 04 avril 2011 - 07:34 .

[lorvincent]

The study probably had a control for that.

Actually, I found a source that linked off of Wikipedia that discussed this exact study, questioning the validity of the findings.

The best-known case involves the synchronization of menstrual cycles among women based on unconscious odor cues (the McClintock effect, named after the primary investigator, Martha McClintock, of the University of Chicago).[17][18]
This study exposed a group of women to a whiff of perspiration from
other women. It was found that it caused their menstrual cycles to
speed up or slow down depending on the time in the month the sweat was
collected: before, during, or after ovulation. Therefore, this study
proposed that there are two types of pheromone involved: "One, produced
prior to ovulation, shortens the ovarian cycle; and the second,
produced just at ovulation, lengthens the cycle". However, recent
studies and reviews of the McClintock methodology have called into
question the validity of her results.[19]

Tada! read up: http://en.wikipedia....Clintock_effect

EDIT: 
DG wasn't feeling ambivalent, as much as he was maintaining a neutral stance on the issue, so forum go-ers like us could discuss it.  DG isn't here to provide epiphanies to his own story before they occur in-game.  Every good writer saves the surprises.  We have spoken of this before too...

Modifié par lorvincent, 04 avril 2011 - 07:23 .

[Kijin]

Obadiah wrote...

Kijin wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

The quote says "arguably sentient" not that they are sentient, yet your argument is that because the dragons use deductive reasoning they are sentient? I think the two don't necessarily go hand in hand.

...
Nevertheless, depending on the donor's time in her menstral cycle, the recipient's cycle was either shortened or lengthened. These dramatic results are the best evidence yet that humans can communicate with peromones.
...

Neuroscience: Exploring the brain Page 264
I don't think this proves pheromones have no impact on humans, and to repeatedly say that this article shows there is "n evidence" is wrong.

You are only reading a section of the page, and ignoring the rest of it. Read the entire page - immediately after discussing that study, the author goes on to state that no hard evidence exists.

Neuroscience: Exploring the brain Page 264
...
But there is not yet any hard evidence for human pheromones that might mediate sexual attraction (for members of either sex) via innate mechanism.
...

That sentence specifically refers to sexual attraction, not the general statement that humans respond to pheromones, which is something clearly in evidence from the earlier paragraph.

Kijin wrote...
The study failed to discount these other possibilities - so it is merely circumstantial evidence. The only thing that study proved - is that fluctuations can occur within a woman's menstrual cycle, which was already known. 

The study probably had a control for that.

Are you serious? You have absolutely no argument, so you've been reduced to arguing about phermones. This is ridiculous. Even if you were right (which you aren't), your pet theory would still be wrong.

Of course they were talking about sex phermones. What other kind of phermones would humans react to? Phermones illicit a programmed, instinctual reaction in animals. Dogs want to mark their territory, so they ****** on the side of a hous - in doing so, they release phermones that tell other dogs not to encroach on their terf. Sex hormones tell animals when they can mate. Humans are capable of recognizing ownership without the use of phermones. Free Will negates any phermonal argument - science has determined that we are not affected by phermones, and even if we were subjeted to them, we would be able to resist them easily. This argument is going nowhere. 

Obadiah wrote...

If this was what DG meant when he made the statement, why then whay say the dragons are "arguably sentient" if such a state of High Dragon intellect was meant to be definitive? I don't think DG's statement on deducation should lead to the conclusion that dragons are sentient, since even he was ambivalent about it.

As I said - can a dog or a cat learn deductive reasoning? How about a cow? Name me an animal you think is capable of learning deductive reasoning. Deductive reasoning requires higher brain functions, which animals do not have. 

DG was ambivalent about it because he wants people to speculate. Maybe he is not certain, maybe he wants us to speculate. The bottom line is -> he has confirmed that dragons use deductive reasoning. You need to prove an animal that lacks sentience and self-awareness can still use deductive reasoning.

[aimichan]

Kijin wrote...

Believe me, the phermone discussion is off topic - and hopefully over. 

It is possible that the Maker does not exist, and that all of their theology is made up. However, this does present a challenge when discussing it - we rely on the Chantry for much of our understanding of Thedas. If we are to assume that the Chantry is wrong, then talking about  Dragon Age lore becomes a lot more difficult. If we disregard all of the Lore written by Chantry writers, then we have just thrown most of the lore out of the window. Although I agree that it is possible that the Chantry is wrong, for the sake of argument I have to believe that at least their scholars must be partially right.

 

I definitely agree. There must be some truth within the lore, sort of like how christianity absorbed other religion's rituals/beliefs. Of course, we'll never know which is which, unless future dragon age games explore the past so that we can experience what is truth and what isn't ourselves.

It is interesting that you bring up Par Vollen; the Quanari were said to have landed on Par Vollen. It has been all but confirmed that there exist multiple continents in the world of Dragon Age - we only know about one of them (Thedas). Presumably, the Quanari came from one of these continents, as did humanity years ago. So it is possible that humanity has lived on other continents for millenia, before making their way to Thedas.

That is true. A valid point. Of course, those humans didn't believe in the Maker and probably worshipped the Old Gods, or perhaps even other gods that we aren't priveleged to know of (like the Egyptians or Mayans, considering the pyramid reference).

I do like the idea that Fen'Harel is the Maker, though. It seems strange that immediately after Fen'Harel seals away the other Gods, the cult of the Maker emerges and Fen'Harel completely disappears. Considering he is a Trickster God, I would not put the deception past him. If Fen'Harel really is the Maker, then why did he "abandon" humanity, when he worked so hard to become the sole God of Thedas?

Perhaps humanity was only a means to an end? Or as you stated, maybe they did exist at the start of things and he was a god they worshipped under a different name. The elves knew of him as Fen'Harel and humans knew him as something else, until they came to Thedas, discovered the 'Old Gods' and began worshipping them instead, thus forsaking their original god, angering him into abandoning them and tricking the other gods because of his jealousy/anger? But then, he fell in love with Andraste, and the rest is history. =)

As the Original Post indicates, before they were Tainted the Old Gods were worshipped by the Tevinter Imperium as Dragon Gods - Dumat (who eventually became the first Archdemon) was called by the Tevinter Imperium, "The Dragon of Silence" Urthemiel, the fifth Archdemon was worshipped as the Dragon of Beauty. They all were worshipped as Gods who took the form of Dragons. We have yet to find any depictions of the Old Gods as anything but Dragons. Unfortunately, all of these Old Gods were depicted as men, which is a problem, as male dragons never develop any wings, yet the Fifth Archdemon clearly appeared in the form of a High Dragon (who can only be female).

That is true. However, I was thinking more along the lines of Flemeth. A dragon that possesses a human shape, or perhaps a human that possesses a dragon shape? There is also the fact that the most important thing is the 'soul', considering Morrigan gave birth to one. Now, I'm guessing it looks human-like, considering the mother and father are humans (or half dwarf/elf depending on the play-through), so I'm thinking the Old Gods weren't always dragons. Or at least could shape-shift/change form. Maybe it appeared as a dragon to humans and people to elves? Or perhaps the Old Gods are the 'Forgotten Ones' in the elven religion and usually looked like dragons?

I completely agree that a considerable amount of history has been lost - but it's difficult to argue. It has been lost, so we have no idea what that history contained. To me, that is the most interesting part of the game - but I digress. I am absolutely sure that there is more to the Maker and the Old Gods then we know, and I am almost certain that the Old Gods were incredibly powerful - but it is difficult to know what a 'God' truly is in Dragon Age, as we have yet to receive confirmation that a divine being even exists in the Dragon Age universe.

I completely agree. Even the spirits/demons don't know if something like a Maker exists, and they were supposed to be the 'first children'. Like you said, we have no idea what history has been lost, and I hope that future games will flesh this part of history for us (although the mystery does make the game interesting in its own way).

[Obadiah]

My pet theory is that in Thedas humans and dragons evolved in a symbiotic relationship, which some humans unknowingly instinctively revert to when in the presence of a High Dragon. The ancient Tevinter Imperium was a dragon cult where the High Dragons became abominations. Hence the reason the Tevinter Imperium could learn Blood Magic from their Old Gods because the abominations would have that knowledge.

I speculated on the presence of pheromones in that symbiotic relationship because, well, why not speculate on a chemical triggering instinctive human behavior. Why this ludicrous endless argument on the existence or effect of human pheromones on people took place is beyond me, since it's inarguable that they exist, and probably affect us in some unknown way.

[lorvincent]

And have little to no importance in the fantasy setting.

[Blacklash93]

Dragons aren't conventional animals, to be sure.

They'll sick their children on you to their own defense, something not many animals would be caught dead doing. They also allow them to be sacrificed for reasons a simple animal would not be able to understand. Few animals see their young as so expendable. High Dragons are extremely intelligent beasts who can consider more than survival, at the very least.

Dragon's body parts are also very rich and valuable in magical properties. Dragon remains make very high-quality gear and have great enchanting potential, for one. Arguably the most powerful sword in the DA universe known thus far is made from a dragon's bones. Their blood is a no brainer.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 04 avril 2011 - 08:47 .

[Kijin]

Obadiah wrote...

My pet theory is that in Thedas humans and dragons evolved in a symbiotic relationship, which some humans unknowinglyYeMy pet theory is that in Thedas humans and dragons evolved in a symbiotic relationship, which My pet theory is that in Thedas humans and dragons evolved in a symbiotic relationship, which some humans unknowingly instinctively revert to when in the presence of a High Dragon. The ancient Tevinter Imperium was a dragon cult where the High Dragons became abominations. Hence the reason the Tevinter Imperium could learn Blood Magic from their Old Gods because the abominations would have that knowledge.

I speculated on the presence of pheromones in that symbiotic relationship because, well, why not speculate on a chemical triggering instinctive human behavior. Why this ludicrous endless argument on the existence or effect of human pheromones on people took place is beyond me, since it's inarguable that they exist, and probably affect us in some unknown way.

 
Here is the reality: the scientific consensus surrounding phermones is that humans are unaffected by them. I don't care if you are sick of the debate. You brought them up - I still think it's the worst argument I've heard on this forum yet. 

Your entire theory is built upon draconic phermones brainwashing humans - it is completely ridiculous. You want to explain why people worship dragons - you might as well be asking why do people worship the Maker. The answer is - they just do. Maybe their belief gives them comfort, maybe they were born into it. You aren't going to find a single explanation, as the Dragon Cults are a religious phenomenon. 

The Cultists only begin exhibiting strange behavior after they consume the blood of the dragon - which indicates that their state is not due to some mysterious instinctual symbiotic relationship, but due to the blood. Since you can't read between the lines, let me spell it out for you: the ceremony involves Blood Magic. That is why the Cultists become insane. A mystical explanation in Dragon Age - it almost seems as if we're talking about a Fantasy Game. Imagine that!

[Obadiah]

Kijin wrote...
...
DG was ambivalent about it because he wants people to speculate. Maybe he is not certain, maybe he wants us to speculate. The bottom line is -> he has confirmed that dragons use deductive reasoning. You need to prove an animal that lacks sentience and self-awareness can still use deductive reasoning.

I don't really think so. The "deductive reasoning = sentience and high intelligence" is something the "High Dragon is sentient" argument rests on, and I'm not really interested in disproving their sentience, it's just not something I see in their behavior. Until I stop getting attacked by dragons on sight in Dragon Age I'll assume they're just dangerous crafty animals.

Just my opinion.

Modifié par Obadiah, 04 avril 2011 - 09:21 .

[Blacklash93]

It's been confirmed that the dragon blood does breed insanity and a kill-joy attitude. Paranoia is also possible, if Haven is any indication, but that just may be them protecting the nest.

In Origins, drinking the dragon blood resembled the joining in so many ways. The ritual itself, passing out, Kolgrim (who looks vaguely similar to Duncan) kneeling over you, the strange images you start seeing in your head.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 04 avril 2011 - 08:56 .

[Obadiah]

Kijin wrote...
...
Here is the reality: the scientific consensus surrounding phermones is that humans are unaffected by them. I don't care if you are sick of the debate. You brought them up - I still think it's the worst argument I've heard on this forum yet. 

Your entire theory is built upon draconic phermones brainwashing humans - it is completely ridiculous.

No it's not, not at all, as I explained above. I certainly never said "brainwashing" nor have I given that impression of the effect of pheromones in any of my statements. I believe the scientific consensus is that pheromones exist, but have an undetermined impact on human behavior.

Kijin wrote...
You want to explain why people worship dragons - you might as well be asking why do people worship the Maker. The answer is - they just do. Maybe their belief gives them comfort, maybe they were born into it. You aren't going to find a single explanation, as the Dragon Cults are a religious phenomenon. 

I'm not so much interested in the "worship" part as I am in the cultist's behavior (tending the young, drinking the blood, protecting the lair) - which is clearly mutually beneficial. I just think the worship part is secondary to the actual behavior. In fact, I'm pretty sure that between dragon cults, the actualy religion is vaslty different. Just look at what happened in Haven - I don't think the other dragon cults believe their High Dragon is the risen Andraste.

Kijin wrote...

The Cultists only begin exhibiting strange behavior after they consume the blood of the dragon - which indicates that their state is not due to some mysterious instinctual symbiotic relationship, but due to the blood. Since you can't read between the lines, let me spell it out for you: the ceremony involves Blood Magic. That is why the Cultists become insane. A mystical explanation in Dragon Age - it almost seems as if we're talking about a Fantasy Game. Imagine that!

It might be blood magic, it might be just a hallucinogen. Just because we're talking about fantasy doesn't mean we can't bring reason into the discussion.

But okay, I already gave you my idea for how the dragon blood becomes part of the cultists' behavior (institutionalized over time due to worship). How do you think it becomes part of their behavior? The dragon just tells the cultists telepahically to go kill one or a few of it's young and drink their blood?

Modifié par Obadiah, 04 avril 2011 - 09:32 .