163 réponses à ce sujet

[Kijin]

aimichan wrote...

I definitely agree. There must be some truth within the lore, sort of like how christianity absorbed other religion's rituals/beliefs. Of course, we'll never know which is which, unless future dragon age games explore the past so that we can experience what is truth and what isn't ourselves.

I really hope they do reveal more information. As interesting as these discussions can be, it'll be a bit frustrating if they don't expand the lore, as it means we'll be having circular arguments for years to come. If we don't accept the Chantry's theology as being true, how do we explain the Blight? The Chantry's explanation is the only current theory - namely, that the Tevinter Magisters became arrogant and tried to approach the Golden City, which was the seat of the Maker. For their crime, they were cast out and cursed to become Darkspawn. How else could we explain that? We don't have enough information from the lore. 

aimichan wrote...

That is true. A valid point. Of course, those humans didn't believe in the Maker and probably worshipped the Old Gods, or perhaps even other gods that we aren't priveleged to know of (like the Egyptians or Mayans, considering the pyramid reference).

They didn't worship either. The Old Gods were only worshipped by the Tevinter Imperium, which was formed only after the Arlathan had been conquered and enslaved. They didn't believe in the Elven Gods either, for obvious reasons. 

So, these proto-humans either believed in the 'Forgotten Ones' - whom we know nothing about - or else they believed in some Gods we have never heard of. 

aimichan wrote...

Perhaps humanity was only a means to an end? Or as you stated, maybe they did exist at the start of things and he was a god they worshipped under a different name. The elves knew of him as Fen'Harel and humans knew him as something else, until they came to Thedas, discovered the 'Old Gods' and began worshipping them instead, thus forsaking their original god, angering him into abandoning them and tricking the other gods because of his jealousy/anger? But then, he fell in love with Andraste, and the rest is history. =)

After Andraste was burned at the stake, it was said that the Maker turned against humanity for committing its second sin (the first sin being attempting to approach the Golden City). If Fen'Harel fell in love with Andraste, I suppose that would make some sense. Unfortunately it's just speculation, but it certainly seems plausible. It would explain why Fen'Harel disappeared from mythology - he could have been grieving all this time. 

aimichan wrote...

That is true. However, I was thinking more along the lines of Flemeth. A dragon that possesses a human shape, or perhaps a human that possesses a dragon shape? There is also the fact that the most important thing is the 'soul', considering Morrigan gave birth to one. Now, I'm guessing it looks human-like, considering the mother and father are humans (or half dwarf/elf depending on the play-through), so I'm thinking the Old Gods weren't always dragons. Or at least could shape-shift/change form. Maybe it appeared as a dragon to humans and people to elves? Or perhaps the Old Gods are the 'Forgotten Ones' in the elven religion and usually looked like dragons?

Anything is possible through Shapeshifting Magic. In DAO, Morrigan could teach any mage how to shapeshift, so presumably the Old Gods/Elven Gods could shapeshift as well. If the Warden is Elven, the child will look human. If the Warden is Dwarven, then the child will be a Dwarf/Human hybrid.

Here is the problem we face with shapeshifting - if we argue that the Old Gods were powerful wizards, then we have no idea what their original form was.  I'm not so sure if the Old Gods and the Forgotten Ones were one and the same. The Forgotten Ones were sealed "away so they could never again walk among the People."

However, the Forgotten Ones were 'Gods of Terror' - and dragons are known for burning entire villages to the ground, so it's possible - but if the Old Gods are the Forgotten Ones, you would have to explain why Fen'Harel allowed them to return. 

aimichan wrote...
I completely agree. Even the spirits/demons don't know if something like a Maker exists, and they were supposed to be the 'first children'. Like you said, we have no idea what history has been lost, and I hope that future games will flesh this part of history for us (although the mystery does make the game interesting in its own way).

If the Maker does exist, I hope it is just an ancient and powerful wizard, and not an omniscient, omnipresent diety. Those are far too common in fantasy games.

[Sheogorath27]

Flemeth is either Fen'harel or an old god. And the maker is likely a myth or Fen'harel or some other deity like being. And the old gods are probably the evil gods of the elven religion and at least have close to deity like power and inteligence. Its to bad that they get corrupted by the taint, dang makers fault that the blights happen.

[Sheogorath27]

Also if the Qunari only came to Thedas after the 4th blight and ogres are made from Qunari brood mothers how do the gray wardens know anything about ogres as logically they would not have been around untill the 5th blight from origins. Sten knows nothing of the Darkspawn or the blight and says so because they are not on the Qunari home continent as far as we know. We only know about Thedas, we don't know where the Qunari come from. Who knows what else is out there and if there are darkspawn, maker cults, dragon and or old god cults, anywhere but Thedas.

[Blacklash93]

In the Ancient Thaig where you face the Profane, did anyone else read the codex entry for them? The ancient dwarves referred to eating lyrium as "feasting on the gods".

I thought of the old gods instantly. They're underground with the dwarves and they sing like lyrium does. No other set of gods match (with current knowledge).

Modifié par Blacklash93, 04 avril 2011 - 10:08 .

[PantheraOnca]

Blacklash93 wrote...

In the Ancient Thaig where you face the Profane, did anyone else read the codex entry for them? The ancient dwarves referred to eating lyrium as "feasting on the gods".

I thought of the old gods instantly. They're underground with the dwarves and they sing like lyrium does. No other set of gods match (with current knowledge).

I think you are confusing things. The codex entry mentions feasting on the gods. The Hunger demon mentioned that the profane, in their current state, feed and hunger for lyrium.

I do not think that the two are equivalent, though they may be related.

[Kijin]

Obadiah wrote...



No it's not, not at all, as I explained above. I certainly never said "brainwashing" nor have I given that impression of the effect of pheromones in any of my statements. I believe the scientific consensus is that pheromones exist, but have an undetermined impact on human behavior.

Honestly I'm sick of phermones, so I'm letting this argument slide. It was a stupid topic and neither of us should have argued about it. 

Obadiah wrote...

I'm not so much interested in the "worship" part as I am in the cultist's behavior (tending the young, drinking the blood, protecting the lair) - which is clearly mutually beneficial. I just think the worship part is secondary to the actual behavior. In fact, I'm pretty sure that between dragon cults, the actualy religion is vaslty different. Just look at what happened in Haven - I don't think the other dragon cults believe their High Dragon is the risen Andraste.

You're right - every cult has its own religion, but each cult is still more of a religious institution than anything else. As far as we can tell, every Cult has a charismatic leader that has the honor of talking directly to the dragon, and these leaders have a tendency to rant on about Godhood, so evidently Kolgrim is not the first cult leader to consider himself a prophet. The fact that Kolgrim chose Andraste has more to due with the location than anything the dragon could have told him. 

Obadiah wrote...

It might be blood magic, it might be just a hallucinogen. Just because we're talking about fantasy doesn't mean we can't bring reason into the discussion.

But okay, I already gave you my idea for how the dragon blood becomes part of the cultists' behavior (institutionalized over time due to worship). How do you think it becomes part of their behavior? The dragon just tells the cultists telepahically to go kill one or a few of it's young and drink their blood?

Drinking the ritually-prepared blood of a dragon will turn somebody into a Reaver - the very same specialization available to warriors. I doubt it is a hallucinogen for this reason. It's more likely the result of the ceremony. We already know that drinking the blood has a direct affect on whoever drinks it - so it's safe to assume that any mental change that occurs, is also due to the blood. 

Glad you asked. Although I do think dragons are self-aware, this doesn't mean I think they are capable of speaking in a language we understand. As far as I know, dragons might not even have their own language, as they lack the need for it. In DAO, one of the first nights in the camp, your Warden awakens from a bad dream - in this dream, the Warden saw many different images flash before his/her eyes, and he/she somehow knew it was the Archdemon. That is how the High Dragon would communicate - not through words, but through images. These images would be rapid and jumbled, and it would be up to the cult leader to decipher them. The Darkspawn Chronicles demonstrated that the Archdemon communicates with the Darkspawn telepathically, so it is not a stretch to think that a High Dragon is capable of performing the same task (especially if you believe as I do, that the Old Gods were High Dragons)

Modifié par Kijin, 04 avril 2011 - 10:58 .

[Blacklash93]

PantheraOnca wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

In the Ancient Thaig where you face the Profane, did anyone else read the codex entry for them? The ancient dwarves referred to eating lyrium as "feasting on the gods".

I thought of the old gods instantly. They're underground with the dwarves and they sing like lyrium does. No other set of gods match (with current knowledge).

I think you are confusing things. The codex entry mentions feasting on the gods. The Hunger demon mentioned that the profane, in their current state, feed and hunger for lyrium.

I do not think that the two are equivalent, though they may be related.

The Profane "feast upon the gods" and they eat only lyrium.

They're probably one and the same.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 04 avril 2011 - 11:16 .

[Blacklash93]

In order to hear the Archdemon, you have to have the darkspawn blood. A blood link.

It would make sense if dragons could communicate to the cultists through their dragon-joined blood if the Archdemon is any example, which is arguable.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 05 avril 2011 - 12:05 .

[Kijin]

Blacklash93 wrote...

PantheraOnca wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

In the Ancient Thaig where you face the Profane, did anyone else read the codex entry for them? The ancient dwarves referred to eating lyrium as "feasting on the gods".

I thought of the old gods instantly. They're underground with the dwarves and they sing like lyrium does. No other set of gods match (with current knowledge).

I think you are confusing things. The codex entry mentions feasting on the gods. The Hunger demon mentioned that the profane, in their current state, feed and hunger for lyrium.

I do not think that the two are equivalent, though they may be related.

The Profane "feast upon the gods" and they eat only lyrium.

They're probably one and the same.

Is this the Codex you are referring to? 

"We who are forgotten, remember,
We clawed at rock until our fingers bled,
We cried out for justice, but were unheard.
Our children wept in hunger,
And so we feasted upon the gods.
Here we wait, in aeons of silence.
We few, we profane."

Fascinating. Blacklash is right, I can only think of the Old Gods. The Dwarves never worshipped any Gods, and they certainly can't be the Elven Gods or the Forgotten Ones. 

[PantheraOnca]

Blacklash93 wrote...


The Profane "feast upon the gods" and they eat only lyrium.

They're probably one and the same.

I read the codex entry as a poem of some sort written by the dwarves who became the profane, before they became the profane.

as in

1- be dwarf
2- eat gods
3- become profane
4- feed on lyrium

though your interpretation is also likely.

speculation: They are called "the profane" not because they eat lyrium, but because they ate the gods, the act of which may have turned them directly into the profane, or caused them to become the profane when their lives ended.


edit:

http://dragonage.wik...om/wiki/Profane redirects to http://dragonage.wik...iki/Rock_Wraith

Dwarven legends tell of dwarves
so corrupt that even the Stone rejects them. Doomed to wander the Deep
Roads in an undying half-life, these creatures are known as Rock Wraith,
and they are creatures of hunger, wrath and little more. While it's
commonly held that Rock Wraiths are myths, every so often a survivor,
often half mad, staggers from the Deep Roads whispering of living rock
assembling itself into a twisted shape shifting parody of a humanoid
creature, and of baleful eyes glowing in the dark.

Modifié par PantheraOnca, 04 avril 2011 - 11:38 .

[Obadiah]

Blacklash93 wrote...

It's been confirmed that the dragon blood does breed insanity and a kill-joy attitude. Paranoia is also possible, if Haven is any indication, but that just may be them protecting the nest.

In Origins, drinking the dragon blood resembled the joining in so many ways. The ritual itself, passing out, Kolgrim (who looks vaguely similar to Duncan) kneeling over you, the strange images you start seeing in your head.

Yup. There is clearly a connection between the two. The obvious answer to where the whispering and images come from is the dragon or archdemon itself. My suspicion though is that it is coming from somewhere else.

[Blacklash93]

PantheraOnca wrote...

1- be dwarf
2- eat gods
3- become profane
4- feed on lyrium

though your interpretation is also likely.

speculation: They are called "the profane" not because they eat lyrium, but because they ate the gods, the act of which may have turned them directly into the profane, or caused them to become the profane when their lives ended.

Let's just agree to disagree.

The codex entry was authored by a Profane. It never said they stopped feasting on the gods. If they haven't, then it's lyrium. If they have, then I wonder what they were "feasting" on in the first place.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 05 avril 2011 - 12:00 .

[Obadiah]

Kijin wrote...
...
That is how the High Dragon would communicate - not through words, but through images. These images would be rapid and jumbled, and it would be up to the cult leader to decipher them.
...

That makes sense.

[Blacklash93]

Obadiah wrote...

Yup. There is clearly a connection between the two. The obvious answer to where the whispering and images come from is the dragon or archdemon itself. My suspicion though is that it is coming from somewhere else.

Kolgrim claims it's the memories of the blood. That dragon blood carries memories over generations.

Kijin wrote...
Fascinating. Blacklash is right, I can only think of the Old Gods. The Dwarves never worshipped any Gods, and they certainly can't be the Elven Gods or the Forgotten Ones.

If you look at the pillars where the rock wraith is, you'll see they resemble winged creatures. It looks like they have beaks and no arms, however, so I assumed they were birds.

But why would dwarves make statues of birds? There are no birds underground and they certainly cannot be connected with the stone. Then I thought dragons, which I'm also unsure of because of said features on the statue.

No idea what the other statues found in the Thaig are.

And yes, I look for this stuff of second and third playthroughs. Don't judge...

Modifié par Blacklash93, 05 avril 2011 - 12:18 .

[Obadiah]

Blacklash93 wrote...
...
The codex entry was authored by a Profane. It never said they stopped feasting on the gods. If they haven't, then it's lyrium. If they have, then I wonder what they were "feasting" on in the first place.

Kinda wish we got a good look at that idol in the Primeval Thaig.

[Kijin]

Blacklash93 wrote...
...
The codex entry was authored by a Profane. It never said they stopped feasting on the gods. If they haven't, then it's lyrium. If they have, then I wonder what they were "feasting" on in the first place.

The codex implied that the Profane stopped feasting on the Gods: "And so we feasted upon the gods." Feasted is used in the past tense, implying that eventually the Profane stopped.

[Obadiah]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Yup. There is clearly a connection between the two. The obvious answer to where the whispering and images come from is the dragon or archdemon itself. My suspicion though is that it is coming from somewhere else.

Kolgrim claims it's the memories of the blood. That dragon blood carries memories over generations.

Hmm, so it could be the directions that dragon cultists receive on how to behave is not a telepahic message from the High Dragon, but a memory of how dragons have been worshipped in the past after drinking the blood.

Very interesting...

Modifié par Obadiah, 05 avril 2011 - 12:08 .

[Blacklash93]

Kijin wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...
...
The codex entry was authored by a Profane. It never said they stopped feasting on the gods. If they haven't, then it's lyrium. If they have, then I wonder what they were "feasting" on in the first place.

The codex implied that the Profane stopped feasting on the Gods: "And so we feasted upon the gods." Feasted is used in the past tense, implying that eventually the Profane stopped.

Not necessarily. I can say I began to eat something even if I am still eating it. It can be past tense as in that's when they began to feast.

But let's not turn this into a grammar lesson.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 05 avril 2011 - 12:14 .

[Elessie]

Blacklash93 wrote...

PantheraOnca wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

In the Ancient Thaig where you face the Profane, did anyone else read the codex entry for them? The ancient dwarves referred to eating lyrium as "feasting on the gods".

I thought of the old gods instantly. They're underground with the dwarves and they sing like lyrium does. No other set of gods match (with current knowledge).

I think you are confusing things. The codex entry mentions feasting on the gods. The Hunger demon mentioned that the profane, in their current state, feed and hunger for lyrium.

I do not think that the two are equivalent, though they may be related.

The Profane "feast upon the gods" and they eat only lyrium.

They're probably one and the same.

For some reason that conjured up a Dune situation in my head with Old Gods and lyrium.  Ew for my mage!  =P

[Obadiah]

Kijin wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

PantheraOnca wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

In the Ancient Thaig where you face the Profane, did anyone else read the codex entry for them? The ancient dwarves referred to eating lyrium as "feasting on the gods".

I thought of the old gods instantly. They're underground with the dwarves and they sing like lyrium does. No other set of gods match (with current knowledge).

I think you are confusing things. The codex entry mentions feasting on the gods. The Hunger demon mentioned that the profane, in their current state, feed and hunger for lyrium.

I do not think that the two are equivalent, though they may be related.

The Profane "feast upon the gods" and they eat only lyrium.

They're probably one and the same.

Is this the Codex you are referring to? 

"We who are forgotten, remember,
We clawed at rock until our fingers bled,
We cried out for justice, but were unheard.
Our children wept in hunger,
And so we feasted upon the gods.
Here we wait, in aeons of silence.
We few, we profane."

Fascinating. Blacklash is right, I can only think of the Old Gods. The Dwarves never worshipped any Gods, and they certainly can't be the Elven Gods or the Forgotten Ones.

They sound like dwarves buried with their gods, who, starving to death, tried eating their gods and became undead. If the these are the same Old Gods, how did they get sealed in the earth?

Modifié par Obadiah, 05 avril 2011 - 12:50 .

[Kijin]

Obadiah wrote...

Kijin wrote...

Is this the Codex you are referring to? 

"We who are forgotten, remember,
We clawed at rock until our fingers bled,
We cried out for justice, but were unheard.
Our children wept in hunger,
And so we feasted upon the gods.
Here we wait, in aeons of silence.
We few, we profane."

Fascinating. Blacklash is right, I can only think of the Old Gods. The Dwarves never worshipped any Gods, and they certainly can't be the Elven Gods or the Forgotten Ones.

They sound like dwarves buried with their gods, who, starving to death, tried eating their gods and became undead. If the these are the same Old Gods, how did they get sealed in the earth?

When the Tevinter Magisters committed the first sin (approaching the Golden City), the Maker supposedly sealed the Old Gods underground. It is unlikely that the Dwarves had Gods of their own - as far as we know, the Dwarves have always worshipped the Paragons. The Primeval Thaig in Dragon Age 2 was from before the First Blight, and according to Varric/Bertrand, there were no Paragon statues anywhere, indicating that the Pre-Blight Dwarves had a radically different culture and religion from current Dwarven society.

Blacklash93 wrote...

Not necessarily. I can say I began to eat something even if I am still eating it. It can be past tense as in that's when they began to feast.

But let's not turn this into a grammar lesson.

The entire poem is in the past-tense, so it's hard to tell. That codex is more vague than usual - quite the feat, Bioware. 

Modifié par Kijin, 05 avril 2011 - 01:27 .

[Obadiah]

Kijin wrote...
...
When the Tevinter Magisters committed the first sin (approaching the Golden City), the Maker supposedly sealed the Old Gods underground.
...

Not so sure about that. The Old Gods codex entry says they were cast down for usurping the worship of the Maker, and the Magisters contacted the Old Gods (while they were still imprisoned?) and rose to power. It's not clearly stated that the Old Gods were still free or imprisoned while the Tevinter Magisters rose to power, but in my reading of it I was left with the impression that the Tevinter Magisters contacted the Old Gods while they were imprisoned and then worshipped the free dragons for their likeness to the Archdemon.

Modifié par Obadiah, 05 avril 2011 - 02:04 .

[Kijin]

Obadiah wrote...

Kijin wrote...
...
When the Tevinter Magisters committed the first sin (approaching the Golden City), the Maker supposedly sealed the Old Gods underground.
...

Not so sure about that. The Old Gods codex entry says they were cast down for usurping the worship of the Maker, and the Magisters contacted the Old Gods (while they were still imprisoned?) and rose to power. It's not clearly stated that the Old Gods were still free or imprisoned while the Tevinter Magisters rose to power, but in my reading of it I was left with the impression that the Tevinter Magisters contacted the Old Gods while they were imprisoned and then worshipped the free dragons for their likeness to the Archdemon.

When a Blight is not occuring, the Darkspawn are all underground searching for an Archdemon. Duncan says as much during DAO, but he very well could be wrong. 

Also, your timeline is a bit messed up. The Maker imprisoned the Old Gods after the Tevinter Magisters approached the Golden City, not before. The Maker punished the Tevinter Magisters by turning them into the first Darkspawn, while the Old Gods were cursed to transform into Archdemons. As far as I can tell, that is the Chantry's official position.

During the First Blight, the Tevinter Imperium was the first target. The people prayed to the remaining Old Gods, but they received silence. This marked the downfall of the Old God cult. See 800 TE for more information. 

[Obadiah]

Kijin wrote...
...
The Maker imprisoned the Old Gods after the Tevinter Magisters approached the Golden City, not before.
...

Where does it say that? That's not in the codex entries, and it's not in the front page of this topic. I'm pretty sure any fair reading of the Old Gods codex entry would lead one to believe the Old Gods were imprisoned when the Tevinter Magisters contacted them.

Codex Entry: The Old Gods
...
There were seven Old Gods, great winged dragons that were said to rule over the ancient world. The Chantry
maintains that they are responsible for the original sin, that they turned humanity away from its true creator through deceit. Humanity's faith faltered, and thus the Maker turned away from the world--but not before trapping the Old Gods in eternal prisons beneath the earth as punishment.

Scholars assume that the Old Gods must indeed have been real at one point, but most agree that they were likely actual dragons--ancient high dragons of a magnitude not known today, and impressive enough to frighten ancient peoples into worshipping them. Some even claim that these dragons slumber as a form of hibernation, not as a result of the Maker's wrath.

Regardless of the truth, legend maintains that even from their underground prisons, the Old Gods were able to whisper into the minds of men. The Archon Thalsian, first of the Magisters, who claimed to have contacted the Old God Dumat, used the blood magic Dumat taught to him to attain incredible power in Tevinter and declare himself the ruler of an Empire. In return, he established the first temples worshipping the Old Gods, and the dragons became equated everywhere with imperial power.
...

Modifié par Obadiah, 05 avril 2011 - 02:27 .

[Kijin]

Obadiah wrote...

Kijin wrote...
...
The Maker imprisoned the Old Gods after the Tevinter Magisters approached the Golden City, not before.
...

Where does it say that? That's not in the codex entries, and it's not in the front page of this topic. I'm pretty sure any fair reading of the Old Gods codex entry would lead one to believe the Old Gods were imprisoned when the Tevinter Magisters contacted them.

I have already posted a link to the information I was referencing, but here is part of the timeline: 

1 TE: The Tevinter Imperium is created with the crowning of the first Archon

800 TE: The first effort to free the Old Gods from their underground prisons is undertaken by the most powerful magister lords, who open a gate to the Golden City at the heart of the Fade. The result is catastrophic, destroying the Golden City and letting the taint into the world, creating the first darkspawn. The Old God Dumat is freed and transformed into the first archdemon. The First Blight begins. The darkspawn attack en masse, concentrating at first on the underground Deep Roads used by the dwarven kingdoms. As the dwarven kingdoms begin to fall, the darkspawn use the Deep Roads to appear throughout the continent. All of the Imperium is under siege and in a state of chaos. Finally, the nations of the Imperium begin to settle in for a long war as they become accustomed to the surges of the darkspawn. Communication becomes difficult across the Imperium, but cooperation is paramount. The people of Tevinter pray to the remaining Old Gods for help against Dumat, but they receive only silence. The people’s faith waning, unrest sees many temples destroyed as the Imperial people begin to turn from the Old Gods, believing themselves betrayed.

1000 TE: Slowly, the last of the darkspawn hordes are defeated. They are forced into the Far Steppes west of the Anderfels and into the Deep Roads. For the dwarves, the war continues underground, but for humanity, the battle is believed to be over. Weak after centuries of fighting, the Imperium is ripe to be attacked.

Modifié par Kijin, 05 avril 2011 - 02:37 .