165 réponses à ce sujet

[AkiKishi]

Judging from the resales, there is a silent majority who have sold the game for store credit.

[Boiny Bunny]

It's a fairly ridiculous theory, which only works in your head because you want it to be true.

You can blather all you like about 'oh the angry people are the vocal ones' - which can be countered just as easily by noting that the people who think the game is a dissapointment are likely to simply put it away and not waste any more energy on it (by creating a forum account to complain). On the contrary, the people who actually love the game are perhaps MORE likely to create an account so they can discuss aspects of the game with others...yes? No?

It is ridiculous to think that the majority of people who don't come to forums love the game or dislike it.

In the end, the tell-tale sign will be the sales after a few years.

[Hulk Hsieh]

Most of my fellow Taiwan gamers who discuss the game with me think:
DA2 may not be as satisfying as DA:O, but it is undoubtly a Bioware-level product and a DA sequel.

Some don't like the dialog wheel.
Some don't like that the companions class/trees are too restricted.
Most like the new(?) combat.

Modifié par Hulk Hsieh, 31 mars 2011 - 12:03 .

[ImperialSun]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

We are obviously arguing completely different things.

I am well aware of the fact that, and agree with you that, the number of players who post reviews OR visit forums is a very small percentage. There is no arguement there.

What I am saying is, of those 2445 players you just listed, how many like the game?

If 70% of people who DO visit forums don't like DA2 - it isn't a great stretch to imagine that 70% of ALL players who play DA2 don't like it - perhaps give or take 5 - 10%.

So - to answer the TC's question:

YES - there is a silent PORTION of people who loved DA2.

NO- there is not a silent MAJORITY of people who loved DA2.  We have no idea what the majority of silent people think and will never know for sure.  The best we can do is take in and accept the opinions of absolutely everybody who is willing to share their opinions.  Doing this, we get mostly negative feedback.

This...seems a totally reasonable conclusion.

I think there are a vocal number of PC / RPG purists who hate DA2 with a passion (myself included, however I rate DAO as one of best games I have EVER played in over 25 years of gaming).

That being said, it in no way implies that the silent majority are happy with the game. I have plenty of friends who dislike DA2 however they are simply not into gaming sufficiently to come and post about it.

At the end of the day we will never know for sure, we can only make projections based on the data we can measure, based on that, I would suggest that something like 70% of the feedback I have seen is negative at best.

I just hope that Bioware learn from this for next time. DA was originally sold as a dark, atmoespheric, adult RPG with complex political nuences, violent combat and a grim semi-realistic art style.

Compare that to DA2 - notice how much Bioware has sold out on their vision in an attempt to attract the entire gaming community? Now we have a diluted RPG experience with simplified RPG mechanics, minimal customisation and options, cut down tactics, strategy and controls along with a manga art style and simply rediculous combat.

This is invariably what happens in my experience when a game spreads itself too thin and tries to be a jack of all trades. Oh well, I just hope that DA3 is a return to form and not more of this garbage

Driz 

[randName]

I love theories like these; make believes are the best sagas, and I'm certain that you have a future in fiction, and maybe, sometimes, you will be right, just like if you were praying.

[Mantaal]

Sen4lifE wrote...

Before people start crying "NUMBERS!" I'll give a good example:

Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare 2; I'm not a fan personally, but it's a good example as like it or not, it has a huge playerbase.

Since people like to reference metacritic.com, I'll use it in our "research"

On Metacritic.com, only 8181 people have posted reviews. However, Modern Warfare 2 has a collective playerbase of 20 million. The ratio of reviews to players is about 1:2445

So, either each player coincidentally knows 2445 other gamers and their exact feelings on the game and posted a view representing them all accurately or only a minority of players post reviews on forums or review sites of games.

I'm relying on the obvious conclusion.

You have no idea how Polls in real life work dont you? 

If there is a produkt and you want to know what the Peoples think about it there are companies for those Polls.
They are often like "We asked 100 Peoples..." "We asked 1000 Peoples..." stuff like that. They get money with those Polls. Some of them are really big Companies. And now you come along with a "Lol they asked only 1000 Peoples and there are Milliards of Peoples on earth! Im sure all others after those 1000 Peoples think different!
The same on Viewer Levels on TV. You really think they count every single TV in? They do some math about the test TVs they got in your land and tell you how much might look some TV Show.

The thing is.
Only because YOU think different that doesnt mean that everyone who dont says something is on your Side.
Only because YOU think its good it doesnt mean you are the Majority.

Modifié par Mantaal, 31 mars 2011 - 01:12 .

[FuseBlues]

Mantaal wrote...

Sen4lifE wrote...

Before people start crying "NUMBERS!" I'll give a good example:

Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare 2; I'm not a fan personally, but it's a good example as like it or not, it has a huge playerbase.

Since people like to reference metacritic.com, I'll use it in our "research"

On Metacritic.com, only 8181 people have posted reviews. However, Modern Warfare 2 has a collective playerbase of 20 million. The ratio of reviews to players is about 1:2445

So, either each player coincidentally knows 2445 other gamers and their exact feelings on the game and posted a view representing them all accurately or only a minority of players post reviews on forums or review sites of games.

I'm relying on the obvious conclusion.

You have no idea how Polls in real life work dont you? 

If there is a produkt and you want to know what the Peoples think about it there are companies for those Polls.
They are often like "We asked 100 Peoples..." "We asked 1000 Peoples..." stuff like that. They get money with those Polls. Some of them are really big Companies. And now you come along with a "Lol they asked only 1000 Peoples and there are Milliards of Peoples on earth! Im sure all others after those 1000 Peoples think different!

You are correct. Polls also work by asking a cross section of society without prejudice or pre-filtering.

Metacritic, but it's nature, is a proactive experience for the "reviewer", and as such had none of the failsafes of a professional, independant poll.

As such, it shows us pretty mcuh nothing of note in the greater scheme of a userbase. That said, it's still a good stick with which to bet one another on a forum. What fun, eh?

Modifié par FuseBlues, 31 mars 2011 - 01:16 .

[Mantaal]

FuseBlues wrote...

Mantaal wrote...

Sen4lifE wrote...

Before people start crying "NUMBERS!" I'll give a good example:

Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare 2; I'm not a fan personally, but it's a good example as like it or not, it has a huge playerbase.

Since people like to reference metacritic.com, I'll use it in our "research"

On Metacritic.com, only 8181 people have posted reviews. However, Modern Warfare 2 has a collective playerbase of 20 million. The ratio of reviews to players is about 1:2445

So, either each player coincidentally knows 2445 other gamers and their exact feelings on the game and posted a view representing them all accurately or only a minority of players post reviews on forums or review sites of games.

I'm relying on the obvious conclusion.

You have no idea how Polls in real life work dont you? 

If there is a produkt and you want to know what the Peoples think about it there are companies for those Polls.
They are often like "We asked 100 Peoples..." "We asked 1000 Peoples..." stuff like that. They get money with those Polls. Some of them are really big Companies. And now you come along with a "Lol they asked only 1000 Peoples and there are Milliards of Peoples on earth! Im sure all others after those 1000 Peoples think different!

You are correct. Polls also work by asking a cross section of society without prejudice or pre-filtering.

Metacritic, but it's nature, is a proactive experience for the "reviewer", and as such had none of the failsafes of a professional, independant poll.

As such, it shows us pretty mcuh nothing of note in the greater scheme of a userbase. That said, it's still a good stick with which to bet one another on a forum. What fun, eh?

I agree i dont know what the Majority or minority thinks about DA2.

But it would be kinda dumb to ask Peoples about DA2 who dont even know what it is or never played it So Metacritic is the only way to make a Poll for a Game that makes sence.
And it seems there are much more peoples who dont like it then peoples who likes the game.
Sure they could all be from 4chan and some Taliban who want to destroy the western Capitalism.
But i think thats just gamers who dont like the Produkt they bought.
If you think thats to easy you might also think Hitler is still the Boss in Germany and NASA never was on the moon too

I really would be surpriced if there is a Silent majority who doesnt reflect the Polls out there.

[AgentWhale]

Sadly, the outrage of the minority will likely put casuals off, ironically, as these are the very people who would enjoy DA2 the most. What a bizarre situation to be in.

Modifié par AgentWhale, 31 mars 2011 - 01:37 .

[Mantaal]

AgentWhale wrote...

Sadly, the outrage of the minority will likely put casuals off, ironically, as these are the very people who would enjoy DA2 the most. What a bizarre situation to be in.

And you know that because of..... ?

[SIx_Foot_Imp]

I think its very Ironic that the complaints of casual gamers inspired Bioware to make DA:2 a more streamlined accessible game, pissing off traditional gamers, and now the complaints of traditional gamers will hopefully convince Bioware to make DA3 a deeper and more complex game, pissing off casual gamers. two groups want two different games and until Bioware somehow merges both of them into one super game its just going to go back and forth.

[AgentWhale]

Mantaal wrote...

AgentWhale wrote...

Sadly, the outrage of the minority will likely put casuals off, ironically, as these are the very people who would enjoy DA2 the most. What a bizarre situation to be in.

And you know that because of..... ?

It is pretty straightforward...

The rpg elitists want a complex game, most casuals are put off by a complex game.

The rpg elitists are bashing the game, most casuals will see this negative feedback and avoid the game.

Ironically, the reason the rpg elitists are bashing the game are the very same reasons the casuals will enjoy it, yet the distinction is lost on casuals who look to their peers, forums, reviews, etc to decide what to buy, and are put off by the negativity.

I wouldn't be surprised to see casuals turn on the game out of the herd mentality, because its seems like the cool thing to do, given the state of the forums. Words like "hardcore" have positive connotations that people want to associate with.

RPG elitists are not acting in the interests of the majority of potential customers, just their own selfish interests of the vocal minority.

Modifié par AgentWhale, 31 mars 2011 - 02:36 .

[v_ware]

Mediocre game, worst Bioware game in a very long time.

I liked it though. Didn't love it like other Bioware games.



I miss KOTOR.

[AgentWhale]

SIx_Foot_Imp wrote...

I think its very Ironic that the complaints of casual gamers inspired Bioware to make DA:2 a more streamlined accessible game, pissing off traditional gamers, and now the complaints of traditional gamers will hopefully convince Bioware to make DA3 a deeper and more complex game, pissing off casual gamers. two groups want two different games and until Bioware somehow merges both of them into one super game its just going to go back and forth.

Doubly ironically? it reminds me of the type of quandary you face in DA2... Do you side with the mages and ****** off the templars, or vice-versa. Poor BioWare's life imitating their art ^^

[naughty99]

AgentWhale wrote...

RPG elitists are not acting in the interests of the majority of potential customers, just their own selfish interests of the vocal minority.

I don't think the DAO-nostalgia fans who are posting so many negative reviews on metacritic are necessarily acting in anyone's interest, even their own. They are simply letting off steam by ranting online. 

[AgentWhale]

v_ware wrote...

Mediocre game, worst Bioware game in a very long time.

I liked it though. Didn't love it like other Bioware games.



I miss KOTOR.

Oh yes, KoTOR, the game that set the very precedence for DA2. With only DA:O possibly being the blip in this road to DA2 (I really don't think DA:O was quite the nod to Baldur's Gate 2 that a lot of people here seem to think it was).

KoTOR's success is what prompted BioWare to make story-driven RPGs, and stat-mongering and loot to take second place to the story.

The more they continue down this path the happier I will be.

[Warheadz]

naughty99 wrote...

AgentWhale wrote...

RPG elitists are not acting in the interests of the majority of potential customers, just their own selfish interests of the vocal minority.

I don't think the DAO-nostalgia fans who are posting so many negative reviews on metacritic are necessarily acting in anyone's interest, even their own. They are simply letting off steam by ranting online. 

You know, it isn't necessarily just nostalgia if someone thinks DA2 is crap when compared to Origins. At least I went back to playing it.

And it's kind of funny- if you google "gaming streamlining" and check the images for that search, Hawke's face is on the first page.
DA2 had so much unnecessary streamlining.

[frylock23]

Without having read all four pages of this, I'll just say that this is why BioWare datamines. It gives them real statistics rather than assumed ones like whether or not forum goers are or aren't representative of the overall gamer population.

I'm sure they'll track game finishes vs. game purchases and it'll give them a clue as to how muhc people like the game. If it wasn't so good, there won't be many more game saves than purchases because there was no replay value. If the game was awful, they won't have as many final game saves they do game purchases.

Personally, I'm the sort that likes a good story more than worrying about the gameplay primarily. Storywise, I find DA2 to be a breath of fresh air compared the so-called story they gave us in ME2. I'm already planning a playthrough as a mage after I finish this second one as a warrior, and I'm excited to explore using a different party comp than I've had this game or the first one. Whereas ME2 started to feel like a chore about halfway through the second playthrough.

But then, I'd rather have a story I can enjoy more than once than a set of combats that I have to work overly hard to complete. YMMV.

[0x30A88]

I like it and enjoy most of it, even on playtrough three, though it has its flaws -- many flaws...

I hope Bioware realise that they're on the edge of the abyss -- their tomb -- and were I them, I would have turned around and returned to the roots that made them the respected company they were before DA2. A toolset is the first step, as it is what makes Bioware games great.

Modifié par Gisle Aune, 31 mars 2011 - 02:59 .

[ImperialSun]

"RPG elitists are not acting in the interests of the majority of potential customers, just their own selfish interests of the vocal minority."

And how is it selfish to expect DA2 to follow the same formula as DAO? I am an RPG gamer and I am massively disappointed in DA2 - its a Fisher Price version of the original game.

Had Bioware made DAO a console style hack n slash game for kids and I was outraged that they had continued the development philosophy in DA2, then I would be selfish.

The reality is that Bioware made an adult oriented dark fantasy RPG which was met with critical acclaim on an industry wide basis. They then sold out on EA's say so and made a diluted sequel in an attempt to attract the console / COD type markets.

I say again there is nothing selfish in expecting the sequel to the RPG of the decade (as per PC Gamer review) to actually be...errr...you know....an RPG game for grown ups rarher than Golden Axe for tweens.

Driz

[Baelyn]

I think most people are missing the point of this thread. The OP is not assuming that we can know for sure, but rather asking us to give feedback from the people we know that would be considered the silent majority. I.E: What are your friends/coworkers/family saying about the game if they aren't the type to go on a forum and post their opinion.

He isn't trying to assume he knows (or suggesting we do either) but rather try to get a better sense. At least thats what I got from his post.

EDIT* My input-

I have 3 guys that I work with that are definitely not the forum going type that actually love the game. Another one of my old friends hated Origins and made fun of me for loving it (slow combat etc) and is absolutely loving this one.

Another of my friends never played Origins but after watching me play DA2 he got hooked, bought Origins (and all DLC) and DA2 and beat them both in a week and loves them. He also does not post on forums, but he is a lurker.

One of my good friends from an old job LOVED Origins and he thinks DA2 is good but not better. His exact words to me were: "Yea I beat it once and it was good...but for some reason it made me want to go play Oblivion." So take that as you will.

Anyways that is the experience I have gotten from my friends.

Modifié par Baelyn, 31 mars 2011 - 03:17 .

[ImperialSun]

Baelyn wrote...

I think most people are missing the point of this thread. The OP is not assuming that we can know for sure, but rather asking us to give feedback from the people we know that would be considered the silent majority. I.E: What are your friends/coworkers/family saying about the game if they aren't the type to go on a forum and post their opinion.

He isn't trying to assume he knows (or suggesting we do either) but rather try to get a better sense. At least thats what I got from his post.

EDIT* My input-

I have 3 guys that I work with that are definitely not the forum going type that actually love the game. Another one of my old friends hated Origins and made fun of me for loving it (slow combat etc) and is absolutely loving this one.

Another of my friends never played Origins but after watching me play DA2 he got hooked, bought Origins (and all DLC) and DA2 and beat them both in a week and loves them. He also does not post on forums, but he is a lurker.

One of my good friends from an old job LOVED Origins and he thinks DA2 is good but not better. His exact words to me were: "Yea I beat it once and it was good...but for some reason it made me want to go play Oblivion." So take that as you will.

Anyways that is the experience I have gotten from my friends.

I know a total of 6 people that have or have played DA2. These folk range from hardcore console gamers to "PC Elitists".....they include people that both loved and loathed DAO.

A couple of my COD monkey buddies like DA2, its "simple", "violent" and "immediate" to use their words.

THIS is the market Bioware are trying to sell DA2 into, hence its been developed using comparatively simple mechanics and coloured in with crayons.

The other 4 people I know who have experienced the game (including 2 PC Elitists and 2 Console Elitists) gave me feedback that ranged from "laughable" to "disgusted".

Driz 

[R-F]

I quite enjoy DA2, currently on my third playthrough trying to wrap up everything for 100%. Yes it had its problems but BW still makes the best games on the market and as long as they keep making games I'll keep buying them.

[callofdoobie]

I love DA 2 but it was made for retarded people.

"O don't worry you ain't gotta look at no silly stuff like weapon and armor stats, just use these little stars, more stars=more better!"

Yea I had to face palm on that one

[ImperialSun]

callofdoobie wrote...

I love DA 2 but it was made for retarded people.

"O don't worry you ain't gotta look at no silly stuff like weapon and armor stats, just use these little stars, more stars=more better!"

Yea I had to face palm on that one

Progress indeed....

Driz