330 réponses à ce sujet

[Wittand25]

Bamboozalist wrote...
This is untrue, regardless of whether or not you want them back as squadmates, it would be much harder on Bioware to make them VIPNPCs. It means that Bioware has to come up with different main plot critical story lines for each squadmate if they become VINPCs, if the ME1 squad is the only VINPCs they only have to have 1 optional main plot line (wrex).

Confining someone to a squadmate is actually one of the best ways to deal with varriables because it means they can't have too large of a role on the story so Bioware doesn't have to waste resources on their impact to the story and so they can't drastically impact the game, not to mention most of the resources that go into squadmates is voice acting and none of the squadmates so far are voiced by someone who would take up tons of cash to get them to voice extra dialogue.

Important does not equal critical. It does not even require there presence or abscence to alter the game play as long as the player gets emotional pay off (seee Wrex on Virmire, no game-play change but nice fluff dialog as reward for importing).
Unless you want the squad to be made into even bigger cardboard cut outs than they were in ME2 and completly stopp intracting with each other or the enviroment squadmates are very resource intensive. Spending that many resources on thirteen NPCs who might be dead depending on import is just not feasable.

Let´s say a cameo takes one day of recording and a full squad mate four days.
Bringing the whole team of ME2 back does require 52 days of recording (for every language, not counting Shepard´s part of the dialog). Reducing the ME2 crew to cameos and introducing 8 new squad mates only requires 45 days (per language, not counting Shepard). With the additional bonus that nearly all the work is accesible to all players independend from import and little is wasted on things that would require a player to play another game for 20+ hours just to see it.

[Nozybidaj]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

Oh a whole mission pack!?  In which she grimdarks her way into being the shadow broker.  If at the end of ME1 you would have asked me what the most ridiculous continuation of her character could possibly be, that pretty much would have been it.

Yeah, I don't completely understand the direction they took with her character, either, nor have I entirely forgiven them for it.  But it was a smashing piece of DLC, at least, and I felt enough of the "old Liara" shone through here and there to curb my rage.

I still haven't played it.  Putting myself through playing ME2 again isn't worth it just to see this dlc.  I'd youtube it if I still cared enough.

[Nozybidaj]

Clonedzero wrote...
you know. CONSEQUENCES lol.

They've never had real consequences anywhere in the series though, just the illusion of choice.  No matter what choices you make or how you play your Shepard you always end up right at the same place.  The differences in ME2 based on your choies from ME1 and in ME2 were all just window dressing.  I don't really anticipate that changing.

Previously the only requirement they said an ME3 import would have is an "alive" Shepard.  Not Sheaprd + Party member 1, 2, and 3.

They aren't going to let you import an ME2 save that has no chance at succeeding in ME3.  That's why none of the ME2 squad will have a significant presence in ME3.  They might be around, probably cameo type appearances.  Maybe insignificant filler side quests if they are still alive, but nothing major is going to change if they are alive or dead.

[jamesp81]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...
you know. CONSEQUENCES lol.

They've never had real consequences anywhere in the series though, just the illusion of choice.  No matter what choices you make or how you play your Shepard you always end up right at the same place.  The differences in ME2 based on your choies from ME1 and in ME2 were all just window dressing.  I don't really anticipate that changing.

Previously the only requirement they said an ME3 import would have is an "alive" Shepard.  Not Sheaprd + Party member 1, 2, and 3.

They aren't going to let you import an ME2 save that has no chance at succeeding in ME3.  That's why none of the ME2 squad will have a significant presence in ME3.  They might be around, probably cameo type appearances.  Maybe insignificant filler side quests if they are still alive, but nothing major is going to change if they are alive or dead.

Bioware has suggested that those that get most of their squad killed in ME2 are going to have a hard time in ME3.  Ergo, I think you're dead wrong.  You will still be able to win even if you nuked your old squad, but it's going to be difficult, as it should be.

[Nozybidaj]

jamesp81 wrote...

Bioware has suggested that those that get most of their squad killed in ME2 are going to have a hard time in ME3. 

Before ME2 they also said that Liara and the VS would have important (but non-prominent) roles to fill and that you could continue your romances from the previous game if you so choose.  How'd that turn out?

[Wittand25]

jamesp81 wrote...
Bioware has suggested that those that get most of their squad killed in ME2 are going to have a hard time in ME3.  Ergo, I think you're dead wrong.  You will still be able to win even if you nuked your old squad, but it's going to be difficult, as it should be.

a.) Bioware marketing says a lot of things, that often don´t happen for one reason or another. And usually what does happen is only about a half as interesting or important as marketing made it sound before.
b.) That twitter quote from Christina Norman does not say, imply or even just hint at that the squad comes back. All she wrote was that there will be consequences if a squad mate died and nobody is arguing that.

[Bamboozalist]

Wittand25 wrote...
Bringing the whole team of ME2 back does require 52 days of recording (for every language, not counting Shepard´s part of the dialog). Reducing the ME2 crew to cameos and introducing 8 new squad mates only requires 45 days (per language, not counting Shepard). With the additional bonus that nearly all the work is accesible to all players independend from import and little is wasted on things that would require a player to play another game for 20+ hours just to see it.

It would still be more resource effective to go with the 52 days or recording,
1. New squad would require new voice actors to be hired on for all 8 members, since Mass Effect is a hit franchise they would probably request higher pay than returning contracts.
2. New animations, models, textures, and everything that the new squad would require.
3. All the resources that would go into making everyone happy by giving all 12 old squad members cameos that are meaningful (and while you say they don't have to impact the story, yes they do otherwise that squad mate is now useless since them being alive doesn't impact the story at all and ME2 was useless as a story)
4. Brand Loyalty (or Character Loyalty in this case) and making "a player to play another game for 20+ hours just to see it." would make it a markettable business decision.
Edit: 5. Tons of unused audio gets left in the final product so voice acting costs aren't exactly a key issue for Bioware if they can pay for lines they're never going to use.

Unfortunately Bioware forced themselves into a corner with this one, you don't make a game devouted solely to getting emotionally engaged and attached with characters just to reduce them to minor roles in the next one. If you make a chapter of a trilogy about character development and then not focus on those characters in the next chapter you've basically completely removed that chapter.

Modifié par Bamboozalist, 04 avril 2011 - 05:23 .

[AquamanOS]

That and any new squadmates will have the weakest development of either 1's or 2's since they'd be brand new characters inserted right into the climax of the story when the time for character development is gone.

That's of course assuming Bioware doesn't let us all down and make the Reaper invasion happen off screen until the very last mission while we run around solving the squad's issues the whole game.

[Nozybidaj]

Bamboozalist wrote...

Unfortunately Bioware forced themselves into a corner with this one, you don't make a game devouted solely to getting emotionally engaged and attached with characters just to reduce them to minor roles in the next one. If you make a chapter of a trilogy about character development and then not focus on those characters in the next chapter you've basically completely removed that chapter.

Wow, someone should have told them that before ME2.

[Wittand25]

Bamboozalist wrote...
It would still be more resource effective to go with the 52 days or recording,
1. New squad would require new voice actors to be hired on for all 8 members, since Mass Effect is a hit franchise they would probably request higher pay than returning contracts.

Do you know the contracts ? One could argue that the returning voice actors can also ask for more payment then new ones since they can not be replaced.

2. New animations, models, textures, and everything that the new squad would require.

AAA game so even returning squad mates would get a new look since just coping them directly from ME2 would look extremely cheap and Bioware can not afford that after DA2´.

3. All the resources that would go into making everyone happy by giving all 12 old squad members cameos that are meaningful (and while you say they don't have to impact the story, yes they do otherwise that squad mate is now useless since them being alive doesn't impact the story at all and ME2 was useless as a story)

Did not you yourself state that squad mates do not have impact on the story ? So if they remain with Shepard the only effect their survival has is another person to talk to on the ship making ME2 equally pointless as a story.

4. Brand Loyalty (or Character Loyalty in this case) and making "a player to play another game for 20+ hours just to see it." would make it a markettable business decision.

It does not work that way with video games or any other media that requires a lot of time investment by the consumer. While giving a returning player some emotional extra content to reward loyalty is fine, withholding important and significant pieces of content from new players on the other hand will ****** them of more likely than make them interested in the franchise

Unfortunately Bioware forced themselves into a corner with this one, you don't make a game devouted solely to getting emotionally engaged and attached with characters just to reduce them to minor roles in the next one. If you make a chapter of a trilogy about character development and then not focus on those characters in the next chapter you've basically completely removed that chapter.

People were as attached to Wrex and no one complained. And even in the case of the VS and Liara the source of complaints was less than they only got cameos and more that said cameos were bad.

And I do not see why ME2 should become pointless if the squad does not return since the game was no about character development anyway. There was far to little interaction between the squad and Shepard to claim such. What ME2 did was to give you a better insight into the various races and the universe through the eyes of the different NPCs.
It is also quite clear, if you play ME2 that most of the squad will leave after the mission or as soon as something important requires them to do so. Several of them tell that Shepard straight to the face.

[Wittand25]

AquamanOS wrote...

That and any new squadmates will have the weakest development of either 1's or 2's since they'd be brand new characters inserted right into the climax of the story when the time for character development is gone.

That's of course assuming Bioware doesn't let us all down and make the Reaper invasion happen off screen until the very last mission while we run around solving the squad's issues the whole game.

ME3 is a full game and not just a delayed climax of ME2.

Heck ME2 was supposed to be a mission under constant time pressure and the plot took place in a time span of two months.In ME1 Shepard spend most of his time in pursuit of Saren and the plot also took less than a month to go from Eden Prime to the battle of the citadel. Even with the reaper invasion there should be plenty of time for Shepard to talk with new crew members, to get to know them and have sex with one of them just before the final mission.

As far as character development goes:
Since ME1 was enough to get attached to the ME1 crew and ME2 enough that you got attached to the ME2 crew I do not see why suddenly ME3 should not be enough to get attached to a new crew.

[jamesp81]

Wittand25 wrote...

AquamanOS wrote...

That and any new squadmates will have the weakest development of either 1's or 2's since they'd be brand new characters inserted right into the climax of the story when the time for character development is gone.

That's of course assuming Bioware doesn't let us all down and make the Reaper invasion happen off screen until the very last mission while we run around solving the squad's issues the whole game.

ME3 is a full game and not just a delayed climax of ME2.

Heck ME2 was supposed to be a mission under constant time pressure and the plot took place in a time span of two months.In ME1 Shepard spend most of his time in pursuit of Saren and the plot also took less than a month to go from Eden Prime to the battle of the citadel. Even with the reaper invasion there should be plenty of time for Shepard to talk with new crew members, to get to know them and have sex with one of them just before the final mission.

As far as character development goes:
Since ME1 was enough to get attached to the ME1 crew and ME2 enough that you got attached to the ME2 crew I do not see why suddenly ME3 should not be enough to get attached to a new crew.

Actually, I was very displeased that Ashley and Liara were both gone.  BW made it work as a plot device, but we're pretty wise to them now.

I'll check the forums a few days after ME3 drops to see what was done about returning squadmates and the general tone of the story's ending.  If old squaddies return and the ending isn't GrimDark, I'll buy the game.  If it fails on one of those two, there are other games I can spend my money on.

And that is the measure of success for BW: how many copies will they sell.  This is the information age, I don't have to buy the game just to find out if they went full failtacular on the story.  I can find out first before spending my money to support a product I may not like.

[T764]

Not going to happen but i would like the ability to choose who i recruit, if i dislike a character i want to be able to replace them, Example- I'm not overly fond of Grunt, i wanted Okeer partialy because of that and partialy because i wanted some Mordin/Okeer bickering.

[Bamboozalist]

Wittand25 wrote...

2. New animations, models, textures, and everything that the new squad would require.

AAA game so even returning squad mates would get a new look since just coping them directly from ME2 would look extremely cheap and Bioware can not afford that after DA2´.

There is a big difference between tweaking/updating existing models and making entirely new ones that you have to make sure function properly with the animations you plan on giving them.

3. All the resources that would go into making everyone happy by giving all 12 old squad members cameos that are meaningful (and while you say they don't have to impact the story, yes they do otherwise that squad mate is now useless since them being alive doesn't impact the story at all and ME2 was useless as a story)

Did not you yourself state that squad mates do not have impact on the story ? So if they remain with Shepard the only effect their survival has is another person to talk to on the ship making ME2 equally pointless as a story.

Considering that ME2 was about gathering a squad and gaining their loyalty no them still being in that squad would make ME2 actually have purpose. Making the ME2 squad not important would be like if ME2 started off with the Reapers coming through the Citadel anyway. Bioware has stated numerous times that ME2 was about the squad. If they're in your squad they're still important since they're helping you fight the Reapers but at the same time they can't impact the story.

4. Brand Loyalty (or Character Loyalty in this case) and making "a player to play another game for 20+ hours just to see it." would make it a markettable business decision.

It does not work that way with video games or any other media that requires a lot of time investment by the consumer. While giving a returning player some emotional extra content to reward loyalty is fine, withholding important and significant pieces of content from new players on the other hand will ****** them of more likely than make them interested in the franchises

First off you said yourself that Squadmates aren't significant content beyond someone to talk to, secondly no one is saying that new players need to be gimped, simply randomizing the squadmates so that new players always have say 6-8 survivors each time would not only add replayability to ME3 by getting a new squad without having to invest time in a new game for the people who didn't want it but it wouldn't lock players out of content to where the only way they possibly could see it would be to play ME2, all they would need to do is make a new game.

As for "It doesn't work that way for any media that requires time invested by the consumer". Really? Because one of the most time consuming forms of media, novels, work exactly that way.

Unfortunately Bioware forced themselves into a corner with this one, you don't make a game devouted solely to getting emotionally engaged and attached with characters just to reduce them to minor roles in the next one. If you make a chapter of a trilogy about character development and then not focus on those characters in the next chapter you've basically completely removed that chapter.

People were as attached to Wrex and no one complained. And even in the case of the VS and Liara the source of complaints was less than they only got cameos and more that said cameos were bad.

People didn't complain about Wrex, the VS, and Liara because Bioware said they're being "Saved for ME3" meaning that they could actually be very important and play a large role in the story and giving us lots of screen time with them. If ME3 roles around and all 3 of them get small cameos again you bet your ass people will be pissed as ****.

And I do not see why ME2 should become pointless if the squad does not return since the game was no about character development anyway. There was far to little interaction between the squad and Shepard to claim such. What ME2 did was to give you a better insight into the various races and the universe through the eyes of the different NPCs.

Regardless of whether or not you think it worked or not Bioware made the game to be about the squad members and Shepard getting to know them. You got the same number of conversations and sometimes 1 more across 4 more squad members in ME2, the squad commented on main missions far, far, far more than they ever did in ME1, and entire missions were devouted to each character focusing on their character development.

It is also quite clear, if you play ME2 that most of the squad will leave after the mission or as soon as something important requires them to do so. Several of them tell that Shepard straight to the face.

If they're not loyal, yes they say that when you recruit them before you take care of their "daddy issues".

Modifié par Bamboozalist, 04 avril 2011 - 06:39 .

[Bolboreta]

I think Bioware will try to satisfy "old users". I mean... if they make a good game for newcomers, reviews would be good; if they make a great ending game, forum comments and fanpages will be a splendid free advertising and I think that would attract more costumers to the whole franchise.

[scpulley]

I think they will have some options. If for example you are going back through the different groups to unite them now against the Reapers to help protect the galaxy, perhaps you won't have a set 'squad' per say that travels through the whole game with you per say except maybe the VS survivor and Liara. IE, you run into Tali as an admiral or just helping her people if she is alive and she plays a part at that point of the story, maybe she can join you, maybe not. Wrex and Grunt would be with their people and play a part when you are trying to get their help, etc. In the end, you have them there or not, depending on your choices, and you can have the option or not to have them join you if they are alive and or available to do so. Make it more about Shepard rallying everyone and less about the squad than ME 2 was. It would make sense that way. As for Jack, Miranda, and Taylor, all of them could be there or not depending on if they are alive and can influence how things go on the ship while you are going around to help everyone. That way you don't feel like you are missing out if they aren't there any more than people were missing out if Wrex was dead other than it's a bit more work.

Modifié par scpulley, 04 avril 2011 - 07:29 .

[Elite Midget]

Bolboreta wrote...

I think Bioware will try to satisfy "old users". I mean... if they make a good game for newcomers, reviews would be good; if they make a great ending game, forum comments and fanpages will be a splendid free advertising and I think that would attract more costumers to the whole franchise.

You're kidding, right?

Review scores will always attract more newcomers than forums or fanpages that most casuals wont be intereted in unless they're already buying the game. Even than few casuals ever even go to forums or fanpages. They play the game if they hear it scored great and once they've beaten it they move on.

[Bamboozalist]

Elite Midget wrote...

Bolboreta wrote...

I think Bioware will try to satisfy "old users". I mean... if they make a good game for newcomers, reviews would be good; if they make a great ending game, forum comments and fanpages will be a splendid free advertising and I think that would attract more costumers to the whole franchise.

You're kidding, right?

Review scores will always attract more newcomers than forums or fanpages that most casuals wont be intereted in unless they're already buying the game. Even than few casuals ever even go to forums or fanpages. They play the game if they hear it scored great and once they've beaten it they move on.

Fortunately those people usually don't buy games that require 20+ hours to complete and have no multiplayer.

[Someone With Mass]

I'd much rather have BioWare elaborate on the characters we already have instead of tossing in new ones every game that I will personally care about for...five, maybe six minutes.

We have a grand total of 16 squadmates if you count ME1 and 2. Don't tell me you can't use them.

[Elite Midget]

Bamboozalist wrote...


Fortunately those people usually don't buy games that require 20+ hours to complete and have no multiplayer.

You're kidding right? So you're saying that all those that bought ME2 were only Hardcore? I really doubt that. Especially since a vast majority of ME2 Game Owners don't even go onto the forums which typically only brings out the hardcores. Besides, Bioware did say they wanted a larger audience namely the CoD one...

[Bamboozalist]

Arcian wrote...

Tali is a bit more sketchy, though. She returned home after her pilgrimage and started helping her people with missions. Why she would go back to Shepard is a bit unclear.

Her massive nerdcrush on Shepard of course. Gigglesquee™.jpg
/sarcasm