330 réponses à ce sujet

[Clonedzero]

lightsnow13 wrote...

So basically 5 people are going to join shepard in the final fight? I call BS on that.

These people are already invested in Shepard and his cause. I don't see any of them leaving when the threat of the Reapers is about to happen.

Thane dying: It was said (I believe in his dossier on the shadow broker dlc) that the more physical exercise he does he can slow the progress of his disease. He just went on a suicide mission -- I'm pretty sure that was exercise. The threat of the reapers is happening shortly after the events on ME2. Not years after -- so thane will still be around and able to fight. At least I hope so.

Samara was sworn to shepard. I don't see her leaving when she is about to take out the biggest injustice to the galaxy.

I just don't think they would build up your relationships with these squadmates only for them to die, leave, or just plain not join you in the final fight for all life in the galaxy. -- At least I think it would be incredibly stupid if you had to go recruit a ton more people.

well Thane and Samara are two fo the squadmates i dont really see returning. Thane is dying so that makes him coming back a bit iffy, and samara was only sworn to shepard for the duration of the suicide mission, once thats complete her oath or w/e is complete.

jack i can only really see returning if she was your LI. otherwise she has no real significant reason to stick around.

[PrinceLionheart]

Clonedzero wrote...

i mean if you make all bad choices, get everyone kill, and then everyone still helps you anyways wouldnt that be kinda, well dumb?

wouldnt it be better if how strong your army was and how successful you are against the reapers is directly effected by how you played the games? what choices you made, how successful your suicide mission was, how loyal your team was. all of those shoudl be actual factors in the game.

they shouldnt wipe the slate clean, give us a new team of people who couldnt have died yet and make all our choices meaningless because someone MIGHT have made a mistake. make that mistake count for something/ personally i want the fact i lost mordin to matter in my save.

it'd make the game stronger, and as a result make ME2 stronger as well, because people would go back to ME2 to replay it in different ways for importing to see how it turns out. like miranda being my go to example, i can easily see her being extremely useful storywise in ME3, if she's dead what happens? well maybe i'd go back to ME2 and kill her off to see how it plays out differently and when things do change because of that then it'd be wonderful.

i dunno how anyone can think thats a bad thing.

What do I mean? I made it stated what I meant pretty plainly, making it absolutely mandatory to keep specific characters alive in order to get the best result is strong arming the player. You can say that it's just giving consequences, but in really the way you described it was punishing the player for not playing it a certain way. If there's nothing but consequences for killing off squadmates, then what would be the point for having the option to kill them off in the first place then? That's just giving an illusion of having choices, if one option will punish you and the other rewards you.

So no, I don't think that a ME2 squad members death should have a real impact on the core story. Side stories/missions, sure why not.

[Elite Midget]

Bamboozalist wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

The thing that you forget is that the Reapers are still not here and wont be here for at least a year after ME2 based on the Novels.

No one has ever debated that, most of us are expecting 2 years after ME2 to similar to the time release dates. The main problem with Thane dying off screen is off screen deaths are usually met with such rage that while writting wise it's the smart thing to do sales wise I don't see EA/Bioware doing it.

You're missing the part that it's a Time Skip, Variables, All Killable, No Plot Armor, and that this is Bioware.

[AdmiralCheez]

Elite Midget wrote...

Really Admiral?

No not really.  There are too many jerks on the internet for me to handle alone, and I'm not really a Justicar.  Or an admiral, even.  I know, my identity is a horrible lie.  I'm sorry, everyone.

"Oh, Bamboo agress with what I want and doesn't appear as much as a Dick as the other guy I completely disaagree with even if Bamboo is still a Dick nonetheless in my eyes! Which means I'll pretend that Bamboo is a saint and ignore his dick moves while hounding the guy I completely disagree with! No biased intentions or the such from me! No siree!"

He's not an active antagonizer, unlike you.  You see, Midgkins, what you do is rage about how you "know the truth" and how everyone else is either automatically stupid, decieving themselves, or blinded by belief.

For example, which of the following would you be more inclined to consider seriously:

A. The fact that the entire ME2 squad can be killed is a serious hindrance to their return as henchmen again for multiple reasons.  First off, a potentially dead character cannot play a very important role in the plot--does it make sense to have X fly in and save the day when a significant number of people won't even have X in their game?  Secondly, squadmates are one of the most resource-intensive aspects of a Bioware title, since they require extensive writing, programming, and voice-acting.  It is unlikely that so much time and money will be devoted to something not all players will experience.  And, thirdly, new players need to have a fair entry point--how would a "default" new game be handled?  How would a new player react to all these characters running around acting like you're old buddies?  Yeah, missing out on a few bonuses here and there is fair since it rewards old players and encourages new ones to go back and try out the previous games, but no developer in their right mind would downright punish a new audience.

B. Bioware isn't going to bring back your precious Zombies.  They can't contribute to the story because they're dead, and Bioware isn't going to waste money on your stupid fanservice anymore.  The Zombies should clear the way for new squaddies and the VS/Liara, and they will.  You're only decieving yourself if you think otherwise, and all your arguments are invalid because you think Tali is your waifu.

And you wonder why I don't take you seriously Admiral when you debate. You're simply too biased in your arguements and have a history of turning a blind eye to others if they agree with you.

I'm not debating with you.  I haven't even responded to one single point you've made, apart from the one where you complained that Liara/the VS *not* being a squadmate would be giving them the shaft.  The rest of my time was spent pointing out that you're being an ass, which detracts from everyone else's ability to discuss and debate the issue at hand.

I'd still be doing this if you completely agreed with me.  Really.  You're that bad.

[Bamboozalist]

Elite Midget wrote...

You're missing the part that it's a Time Skip, Variables, All Killable, No Plot Armor, and that this is Bioware.

You're missing the point that this is EA, Bioware has stated that players who got their squad killing in ME2 will have a hard time in ME3, this is EA, final chapter of the game so variables are the main focus and not a big deal, and once again this is EA.

EA is the king of cash in, if it's either A write a cohesive story where a characters illness actually kills him or B make money by shoehorning that character back in it's going to be B.

[Clonedzero]

Elite Midget wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...
 oh i think viarables should be considered in everything.

like garrus for example, if he's alive then cool, but if he lived through ME2 and you ignored his loyalty mission he should be a cameo with his own squad like you suggested earlier, but if you had his loyalty mission and he lived then he should stick with shepard acting as his "bro" or whatever lol.

thats where i think alot of the squadmate vs cameos should be determined, if you had them live but not loyal then they go off to handle their stuff and dont really join back up with shepard. miranda goes off to help her sister instead of sticking with shepard, tali goes to deal with her trial, mordin investigates his scientist friend, ect. you see what im getting at there.

i think that'd be a good way to handle alot of the teammates as well.

So you're asking for them to make him a Squaddie and a Cameo? While under the assumption that he can't contribute to the ME3 plot because he can be a Squaddie, Cameo, or be Dead along with other variables? Maybe if Bioware had infinute resources they could do that but you have to face reality. You're asking for way too much for a guy that isn't even alive in all saves.

well over half the squadmates in ME2 werent really all that significant to the overall story, so yeah. like Thane contributes nothing to the actual story. samara contributes nothing to the story, Grunt contributes nothing to the story, ect. you see what im getting at.

cameos arent really that big on resources though, they show up say hi and leave, and if they have a good possibility returning as a full member of the team then the cameo isnt really resource heavy at all, its one extra conversation/scene.

[Clonedzero]

Elite Midget wrote...

Bamboozalist wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

The thing that you forget is that the Reapers are still not here and wont be here for at least a year after ME2 based on the Novels.

No one has ever debated that, most of us are expecting 2 years after ME2 to similar to the time release dates. The main problem with Thane dying off screen is off screen deaths are usually met with such rage that while writting wise it's the smart thing to do sales wise I don't see EA/Bioware doing it.

You're missing the part that it's a Time Skip, Variables, All Killable, No Plot Armor, and that this is Bioware.

how does them being killable and not having plot armor make them unable to be full members of the team? thats kinda ridiculous.

[Bamboozalist]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

How would a new player react to all these characters running around
acting like you're old buddies?  Yeah, missing out on a few bonuses here
and there is fair since it rewards old players and encourages new ones
to go back and try out the previous games, but no developer in their
right mind would downright punish a new audience.

If we do get the old team back I would like to see non-import new games simply randomize the squad, this way it doesn't punish the new audience by giving them 2 people it doesn't reward them by giving them everyone, and it gives them replay value with out having to go buy 1 and 2 for just different squad mates.

[Elite Midget]

I'm sorry, Admiral! TL:DR! Your double standards and biased remarks are simply too troublesome to read out in full. Though have a cookie for trying anyway.

Bamboozalist wrote...

You're missing the point that this is EA, Bioware has stated that players who got their squad killing in ME2 will have a hard time in ME3, this is EA, final chapter of the game so variables are the main focus and not a big deal, and once again this is EA.

EA is the king of cash in, if it's either A write a cohesive story where a characters illness actually kills him or B make money by shoehorning that character back in it's going to be B.

Don't bring up EA, Bamboo. You really don't want to do that. Not with the history it has of doing things. If EA had their way they would handwave everything in ME2 that involved the Squaddies and have them all return as Loyal and alive despite what was said so as to save costs. Thus it would make ME2 even more irrrelevant than turning the ME2 Squaddies over the Time Skip into important NPCs.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 01 avril 2011 - 09:41 .

[Elite Midget]

Clonedzero wrote...
how does them being killable and not having plot armor make them unable to be full members of the team? thats kinda ridiculous.

Really? You don't know? Really?!

What is this? I don't even...

[AdmiralCheez]

Bamboozalist wrote...

If we do get the old team back I would like to see non-import new games simply randomize the squad, this way it doesn't punish the new audience by giving them 2 people it doesn't reward them by giving them everyone, and it gives them replay value with out having to go buy 1 and 2 for just different squad mates.

I'm kind of against randomization a little bit since it takes away player control.  I think the best solution is for most of the recruitable squad to be available in the default, while most non-recruitables are ommitted.

I say this because I most certainly do not expect EVERYONE to be back on the team; that's expecting a bit too much and leaves no room for new characters, which I'm eager to see.

[Bamboozalist]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

I'm kind of against randomization a little bit since it takes away player control. 

It only take control if it randomizes it for imports. For new players I think it's fine since they don't have any way to impact the events of ME3 and have to be railroaded on the path Bioware chose every time.

[Elite Midget]

Why bother with radomization? It's too late to change that they can all die. So why not just save themselves the trouble and just make a new Squad that every save must have?

[PrinceLionheart]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Bamboozalist wrote...

If we do get the old team back I would like to see non-import new games simply randomize the squad, this way it doesn't punish the new audience by giving them 2 people it doesn't reward them by giving them everyone, and it gives them replay value with out having to go buy 1 and 2 for just different squad mates.

I'm kind of against randomization a little bit since it takes away player control.  I think the best solution is for most of the recruitable squad to be available in the default, while most non-recruitables are ommitted.

I say this because I most certainly do not expect EVERYONE to be back on the team; that's expecting a bit too much and leaves no room for new characters, which I'm eager to see.

I honestly think a good portion of the ME2 squad will have a Wrex-level supporting role and return for the finale, or maybe even be temporary squadmates ala LoTSB. Unlike say VS or Wrex/Wreav, there is no one to fill a slot for the ME2 squad, and I just can't see Bioware spending that much money on a character who can die, just to appease their fanboys.

That and I chuckle everytime someone use a character's fanbase as an argument for two reasons

• Wrex (arguably the most popular ME1 character, and he was not playable in ME2)
• Bioware's current track record has shown that they don't fear angering their fans. 

[Bamboozalist]

Elite Midget wrote...

Why bother with radomization? It's too late to change that they can all die. So why not just save themselves the trouble and just make a new Squad that every save must have?

Because that defeats the purpose of the whole choice matters thing we've been promised for ME3 and because we're talking about IF the old squad comes back how to handle it for new players.

[Elite Midget]

Not if they're handled correctly with NPC Importance and Cameo's that require they be alive and/or loyal that could effect the story in certian ways. Such as a mission elsewhere succeeding instead of failing thus meaning more troops still around for the final confrontation.

[Clonedzero]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

Really Admiral?

No not really.  There are too many jerks on the internet for me to handle alone, and I'm not really a Justicar.  Or an admiral, even.  I know, my identity is a horrible lie.  I'm sorry, everyone.

"Oh, Bamboo agress with what I want and doesn't appear as much as a Dick as the other guy I completely disaagree with even if Bamboo is still a Dick nonetheless in my eyes! Which means I'll pretend that Bamboo is a saint and ignore his dick moves while hounding the guy I completely disagree with! No biased intentions or the such from me! No siree!"

He's not an active antagonizer, unlike you.  You see, Midgkins, what you do is rage about how you "know the truth" and how everyone else is either automatically stupid, decieving themselves, or blinded by belief.

For example, which of the following would you be more inclined to consider seriously:

A. The fact that the entire ME2 squad can be killed is a serious hindrance to their return as henchmen again for multiple reasons.  First off, a potentially dead character cannot play a very important role in the plot--does it make sense to have X fly in and save the day when a significant number of people won't even have X in their game?  Secondly, squadmates are one of the most resource-intensive aspects of a Bioware title, since they require extensive writing, programming, and voice-acting.  It is unlikely that so much time and money will be devoted to something not all players will experience.  And, thirdly, new players need to have a fair entry point--how would a "default" new game be handled?  How would a new player react to all these characters running around acting like you're old buddies?  Yeah, missing out on a few bonuses here and there is fair since it rewards old players and encourages new ones to go back and try out the previous games, but no developer in their right mind would downright punish a new audience.

B. Bioware isn't going to bring back your precious Zombies.  They can't contribute to the story because they're dead, and Bioware isn't going to waste money on your stupid fanservice anymore.  The Zombies should clear the way for new squaddies and the VS/Liara, and they will.  You're only decieving yourself if you think otherwise, and all your arguments are invalid because you think Tali is your waifu.

And you wonder why I don't take you seriously Admiral when you debate. You're simply too biased in your arguements and have a history of turning a blind eye to others if they agree with you.

I'm not debating with you.  I haven't even responded to one single point you've made, apart from the one where you complained that Liara/the VS *not* being a squadmate would be giving them the shaft.  The rest of my time was spent pointing out that you're being an ass, which detracts from everyone else's ability to discuss and debate the issue at hand.

I'd still be doing this if you completely agreed with me.  Really.  You're that bad.

A.) them not being included in the game would be a big mistake, i really cant see them doing that for any real reason. sure they'll have to cherry pick which ones return but its safe to assume at least a couple killable ME2 members will return in full roles. also note that none of the squadmates in either game have played a majorly significant role in the story that cant be replaced or swapped out with someone else just as easily. exceptions mostly being liara and miranda, the other characters were fairly insignificant honestly.

they had a "default" import for ME2, for who lived and died in ME2 for new players they just cherry pick the ones that have the greatest roles to play in ME3, they just go "this one this one and this one died" they just pick the unimportant ones (samara, grunt) to die and the more important ones (miranda, garrus) to live. thats not really punishing the players if they do that. they have the onest aht die in the default import be the ones that have bonus missions or cameos and the ones that live be the ones that can return as full squadmates. easy as that.

B.) i dont understand why characters cant contribute to the story if they're killable. if they're dead in your game then they dont contribute that insight or dont help in their specific way and you suffer the consquences. or perhaps them being alive makes them do nothing, but if they died then it changes the story in a large way. Wrex is killable and he's fairly significant. also again, i'd like to point out, most of the squadmates in BOTH games don't heavily contribute to the plot at all in either game. ashley aside from ebing a possible LI and living/dying on vmire adds nothing to the story really. Samara, aside from ebing another powerful biotic for your team adds nothing to the actual story. so either way its not a HUGE deal.

ME1 the only real "important" squadmate is liara, because she's your connection to benenzia and thus saren. the rest aren't really that significant and coulda been swapped out with anyone really.

ME2 the only real "important" squadmate is miranda, because she's your connection with TIM and your second in command and cerebrus authority figure on the ship. the rest arent really all that important.

[Elite Midget]

That's untrue for ME1. Liara was the most important but the VS was the second most important and played a part in the story. Without VS many of the events wouldn't have occured while Tali's only importance was the data near the start while Wrex/Garrus were mostly just there.

Also, Miranda is the most important ME2 Squaddie but Mordin share nearly equal importance as her since his being there made many of the impossible things possible.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 01 avril 2011 - 09:50 .

[Bamboozalist]

Elite Midget wrote...

Not if they're handled correctly with NPC Importance and Cameo's that require they be alive and/or loyal that could effect the story in certian ways. Such as a mission elsewhere succeeding instead of failing thus meaning more troops still around for the final confrontation.

The problem with making the ME2 squad important is either A) new players get screwed or Bioware has to make a replacement character for that important cameo making the old squad mate useless.

Also resource wise returning squadmates instead of cameo saves a ton
- no need for new models/VAs/everything for the new squad.
- no need for all the resources that would go into their cameo.

[AdmiralCheez]

Elite Midget wrote...

I'm sorry, Admiral! TL:DR! Your double standards and biased remarks are simply too troublesome to read out in full. Though have a cookie for trying anyway.

Wuss.

[Clonedzero]

Elite Midget wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...
how does them being killable and not having plot armor make them unable to be full members of the team? thats kinda ridiculous.

Really? You don't know? Really?!

What is this? I don't even...

if they are dead you don't get them. if they are alive you either get them or they serve as an important cameo.

before you say it "they shouldnt punish people for having people die in ME2" YES THEY SHOULD. if most of your team died in ME2 then you should be short handed.

and again, before you say "that would punish new players", no it wouldn't you just make the more significant characters live through the SM in the default import. and the ones that are dead in the default import but still return as full squadmates, those are bonus characters for people who played ME2, as incentive for them to play it. just dont make those particular squadmates too important to have.

[Zulu_DFA]

The other day I had this weird thought:

ME3 is gonna be even more shooterized.

That is, the plot will be pretty much railroaded, and Shepard will not have a squad at all. Maybe he won't even have the Normandy up until very late in the game.

Some missions he will be doing solo (like in Overlord, Arrival DLC)
Some with just a single "guest" squadmate (like Kasumi, LoTSB DLC. And actually all the rest loyalty missions in ME2 were pretty much a one character show)

On some missions, he'll maybe even have two squadmates, or some silly co-op mode available.

Possibilities are limitless.

This way most of the old squadmates can have a "playeable cameo", and not lose in significance to any new faces, available on separate missions. Maybe that's Christina Norman's "rough ride": Tali Headshot 4.0? You go solo on this mission!

[Elite Midget]

Bamboozalist wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

Not if they're handled correctly with NPC Importance and Cameo's that require they be alive and/or loyal that could effect the story in certian ways. Such as a mission elsewhere succeeding instead of failing thus meaning more troops still around for the final confrontation.

The problem with making the ME2 squad important is either A) new players get screwed or Bioware has to make a replacement character for that important cameo making the old squad mate useless.

Also resource wise returning squadmates instead of cameo saves a ton
- no need for new models/VAs/everything for the new squad.
- no need for all the resources that would go into their cameo.

Not really. New players will get screwed even if it's just cameo's that change some dialouge at the ending because less people died. Hell, if you weren't a Renegade in ME2 and you used the default Shepard you were screwed out of a ton of Paragorn options/choices. Basically, I want to get the screwing on New Players down to a minimum instead of the most screwed up scenerio ever that would screw new players.

No Bioware doesn't. They could just have Anderson mention that another person went on that mission and than later they failed without ever showing them. If the ME2 Squaddie was alive they would meet up with Shepard and Anderson would mention that they would be in charge of the mission and they would succeed.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 01 avril 2011 - 09:55 .