330 réponses à ce sujet

[Clonedzero]

Bamboozalist wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

Not if they're handled correctly with NPC Importance and Cameo's that require they be alive and/or loyal that could effect the story in certian ways. Such as a mission elsewhere succeeding instead of failing thus meaning more troops still around for the final confrontation.

The problem with making the ME2 squad important is either A) new players get screwed or Bioware has to make a replacement character for that important cameo making the old squad mate useless.

Also resource wise returning squadmates instead of cameo saves a ton
- no need for new models/VAs/everything for the new squad.
- no need for all the resources that would go into their cameo.

thats an easy fix. any returning ME2 squadmate who's important lives in the default import. bam i solved that problem. took about 3 seconds of thought to figure that one out lol

also i know ALOT of people who played through ME2, and i dont know anyone who had more than 3 people die on the SM (well exceptions being when they purposely got their teammates killed for laughs). most of them only lost people during the hold the line thing at the end because they brought some of the "heavy hitters" with them to fight the boss. happened to me too, my first playthrough i only lost people there. you have to either be pretty dumb ro doing it on purpose to pick the wrong people for the jobs.

[Elite Midget]

Clonedzero wrote...
 if they are dead you don't get them. if they are alive you either get them or they serve as an important cameo.

before you say it "they shouldnt punish people for having people die in ME2" YES THEY SHOULD. if most of your team died in ME2 then you should be short handed.

and again, before you say "that would punish new players", no it wouldn't you just make the more significant characters live through the SM in the default import. and the ones that are dead in the default import but still return as full squadmates, those are bonus characters for people who played ME2, as incentive for them to play it. just dont make those particular squadmates too important to have.

This is why Bioware has someone else manageing their financing. At least they know what not to do that would alienate new fans to the series and thus their future income. After all, you can't just appease the old fans without doing all you can to try and get new fans.

There's an old saying.

"The Old eventually leave thus you must work to gather the New to maintain growth for the future."

Besides, it's history 101 for Games. The Old always get screwed over to try and capture the New.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 01 avril 2011 - 09:59 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Clonedzero wrote...

]A.) them not being included in the game would be a big mistake, i really cant see them doing that for any real reason. sure they'll have to cherry pick which ones return but its safe to assume at least a couple killable ME2 members will return in full roles. also note that none of the squadmates in either game have played a majorly significant role in the story that cant be replaced or swapped out with someone else just as easily. exceptions mostly being liara and miranda, the other characters were fairly insignificant honestly.

The issue here is whether pleasing the fans and pushing the limits when it comes to weight of past decisions is worth spending a lot of money and possibly alienating newcomers.

they had a "default" import for ME2, for who lived and died in ME2 for new players they just cherry pick the ones that have the greatest roles to play in ME3, they just go "this one this one and this one died" they just pick the unimportant ones (samara, grunt) to die and the more important ones (miranda, garrus) to live. thats not really punishing the players if they do that. they have the onest aht die in the default import be the ones that have bonus missions or cameos and the ones that live be the ones that can return as full squadmates. easy as that.

I am in favor of a similar position: a compromise between pleasing your audience/going to town with one hell of a game mechanic and being efficient/keeping ME3 open to new players.

B.) i dont understand why characters cant contribute to the story if they're killable. if they're dead in your game then they dont contribute that insight or dont help in their specific way and you suffer the consquences. or perhaps them being alive makes them do nothing, but if they died then it changes the story in a large way. Wrex is killable and he's fairly significant. also again, i'd like to point out, most of the squadmates in BOTH games don't heavily contribute to the plot at all in either game. ashley aside from ebing a possible LI and living/dying on vmire adds nothing to the story really. Samara, aside from ebing another powerful biotic for your team adds nothing to the actual story. so either way its not a HUGE deal.

I agree completely.  However, a character that is not present in all games cannot be vital to the progression of the plot.  They can contribute, sure, but they won't determine whether or not you can win the game.

ME1 the only real "important" squadmate is liara, because she's your connection to benenzia and thus saren. the rest aren't really that significant and coulda been swapped out with anyone really.

Yep, and Liara could have easily been a non-combatant.

ME2 the only real "important" squadmate is miranda, because she's your connection with TIM and your second in command and cerebrus authority figure on the ship. the rest arent really all that important.

Mordin was also essential for story progression, but again both of those could have easily been NPCs.

Anyway, I think you missed the point of my post--I was showing how to better present your points when debating on the forums, not actually arguing them.

[Clonedzero]

Elite Midget wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...
 if they are dead you don't get them. if they are alive you either get them or they serve as an important cameo.

before you say it "they shouldnt punish people for having people die in ME2" YES THEY SHOULD. if most of your team died in ME2 then you should be short handed.

and again, before you say "that would punish new players", no it wouldn't you just make the more significant characters live through the SM in the default import. and the ones that are dead in the default import but still return as full squadmates, those are bonus characters for people who played ME2, as incentive for them to play it. just dont make those particular squadmates too important to have.

This is why Bioware has someone else manageing their financing. At least they know what not to do that would alienate new fans to the series and thus their future income. After all, you can't just appease the old fans without doing all you can to try and get new fans.

There's an old saying.

"The Old eventually leave thus you must work to gather the New to maintain growth for the future."

Besides, it's history 101 for Games. The Old always get screwed over to try and capture the New.

what are you talking about? how is having the more important squadmates live in the default import going to alienate new players? that makes no sense. im getting the feeling that you're just trolling at this point.

[Elite Midget]

Mostly because it becomes a biased favortism game that will divide the Fanbase.

"What? Miranda and Mordin are the Default Characters and the only ME2 Squaddies that're important to the ME3 plot since even Defaults have them? What about my Tali and Garrus!!! RAGE!!!"

Besides, if ME3 starts the way I think Bioware wants it to begin than we may end up with Shepard alone again when ME3 starts due to the Time Skip and what Shepard did in Arrival.

[Clonedzero]

i dont really see how characters knowing shepard would alienate new people anymore than jumping into the 3rd installment of a game thats consisting of direct sequels. it'd probably be easier for a new person to accept "ok garrus is shepards friend, they've been through alot together" than new characters, in fact having strictly new characters would alienate old fans.

i mean using existing characters cant really alienate new people anymore than anything else. if anything using the established characcters who were in previous ones as tools to explain the events of the earlier games would be better than a random dude doing it. easing the new player into the story using a character thats quickly established as a long time friend of shepard would actually be the best way to do it.

[Elite Midget]

No it wouldn't. New characters would be new for everyone whic hmeans no one knows them and throughout ME3 you learn their stories and grow to like them.

You simply can't expect New Players to know all these faces and than offer no look into their pasts like ME2 did for the ME2 Squaddies. They would simply have very little reason to like these characters that they don't know and that's bad business since making games is very expensive. If they alienate the new they'll be denying themselves growth since not every ME2 will return for ME3.

[Major Swift]

Garrus HAS to come back lol Tali too, that'd make my day

Modifié par Major Swift, 01 avril 2011 - 10:14 .

[Elite Midget]

I look forward to when your dreams are crushed and Miranda/Mordin end up as the default survivors and they end up just being NPCs.

[Clonedzero]

Elite Midget wrote...

Mostly because it becomes a biased favortism game that will divide the Fanbase.

"What? Miranda and Mordin are the Default Characters and the only ME2 Squaddies that're important to the ME3 plot since even Defaults have them? What about my Tali and Garrus!!! RAGE!!!"

Besides, if ME3 starts the way I think Bioware wants it to begin than we may end up with Shepard alone again when ME3 starts due to the Time Skip and what Shepard did in Arrival.

yeah, but that wont effect sales or anything and anyoen who's a big fan and played ME2 will be using an import.

and if i had to bet money on it, garrus, miranda and tali are going to be alive in the default game. possibly mordin too, as they're the most important and most established characters in ME2. now if you were just picking random names rather than using the ones that'd cause the biggest outrage if they werent included. then well you picked the important ones lol.

i personally don't particularly care for tali, she's one of my least favorite characters in ME2 honestly, i like thane alot more but realistically thane isnt really nearly as important as tali.

also, no matter how they handle it there will be fan backlash. thats the nature of the beast, so they might as well be smart about it and prioritze characters on importance

[AdmiralCheez]

Elite Midget wrote...

I look forward to when your dreams are crushed and Miranda/Mordin end up as the default survivors and they end up just being NPCs.

Dunno, man.  Mordin's pretty easy to kill in the SM.

Mostly because it becomes a biased favortism game that will divide the Fanbase.

What's worse, a divided fanbase with a small number of vocal protestors, or a united one that is pretty much universally disappointed?

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 01 avril 2011 - 10:21 .

[Clonedzero]

Elite Midget wrote...

No it wouldn't. New characters would be new for everyone whic hmeans no one knows them and throughout ME3 you learn their stories and grow to like them.

You simply can't expect New Players to know all these faces and than offer no look into their pasts like ME2 did for the ME2 Squaddies. They would simply have very little reason to like these characters that they don't know and that's bad business since making games is very expensive. If they alienate the new they'll be denying themselves growth since not every ME2 will return for ME3.

so i take it you've never seen a movie, tv show, read a book, played a game, seen a play or anything where two characters know each other at the start of the story?

in most well writen storiesa majority of the characters already know each other.

and if not every ME2 person returns in ME3 what difference doest hat make? also, in most big selling games they pair you up with an NPC parter who's an established friend or partner.  usually in a "hey im your friend and im going to guide you through the first level of the game" type thing. i can think of TONS of game that starts you out with a friend of your character.

them referencing stuff earlier in their friendship/relationship reinforces that. again a majority of the time thats never shown in the game and is just reinforcing the point that they know each other. having that happen in a previous game wouldnt alienate anyone.

do you even know what you're talking about?

[Elite Midget]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
Dunno, man.  Mordin's pretty easy to kill in the SM.

 

What's worse, a divided fanbase with a small number of vocal protestors, or a united one that is pretty much universally disappointed?

Mordin is fairly easy to save. Though I have met those that sent an Unloyal Grunt back with the Survivors instead of their Loyal Mordin.

They will be united anyway. If their returning Squaddies make it in they will anger other Fans. If said returning ME2 Squaddies don't have any importance to the plot or are extremely silent throughout the game it will anger fans more than Cameo's. Because really... Without their dialouge they're just another boreing sack of meat without any depth.

[Dave666]

Elite Midget wrote...

I look forward to when your dreams are crushed and Miranda/Mordin end up as the default survivors and they end up just being NPCs.

I look forward to seeing if you have the balls to show up on the forums after ME:3 is released.  I have a ton of 'I told you so' pics saved up and even a video of someone pointing at the screen laughing.  Should be hillarious.

Elite Midget wrote...
Mordin is fairly easy to save.

I have 27 save files so far only one of them doesn't have all survive, (my first play through) only one Squaddie died, like to guess which one?

Modifié par Dave666, 01 avril 2011 - 10:27 .

[Elite Midget]

Clonedzero wrote...
]  so i take it you've never seen a movie, tv show, read a book, played a game, seen a play or anything where two characters know each other at the start of the story?

in most well writen storiesa majority of the characters already know each other.

and if not every ME2 person returns in ME3 what difference doest hat make? also, in most big selling games they pair you up with an NPC parter who's an established friend or partner.  usually in a "hey im your friend and im going to guide you through the first level of the game" type thing. i can think of TONS of game that starts you out with a friend of your character.

them referencing stuff earlier in their friendship/relationship reinforces that. again a majority of the time thats never shown in the game and is just reinforcing the point that they know each other. having that happen in a previous game wouldnt alienate anyone.

do you even know what you're talking about?

The Movie card really? Really?  Let me make something clear to you since you seem to think these unrelated things are alike. Movies are Linear, their plots always go one way, and everyone that appears in that Film has to be alive and doing what they're told to do. There are no variables in Movies because everything is already pre-decided.

ME is different. There are choices, variables, and the such that devait from the Linear path that movies follow. Sure the endings of the ME games are roughly the same. However unlike Movies the Inbetween parts aren't the same in all ME games while they're ALWAYS the same in movies.

When you try and compare things that are unrelated than you ignore what makesthem  'different' from each other you end up making your arguement look weaker than I could have ever hoped to have done.

[Zulu_DFA]

Midget, you are magnificent.

[Elite Midget]

Dave666 wrote...

I look forward to seeing if you have the balls to show up on the forums after ME:3 is released.  I have a ton of 'I told you so' pics saved up and even a video of someone pointing at the screen laughing.  Should be hillarious.

I have 27 save files so far only one of them doesn't have all survive, (my first play through) only one Squaddie died, like to guess which one?

Freisty, aren't'cha?

Believe me, I'm a man and if Bioware caves to their rabid Hardcores and screws over the New than I will eat my words. Though do know that you will most likely end up getting in trouble if you end up doing what I think you will do. After all, you seem like the petty type.

Me? If I'm proven right than I don't need to flaunt my E-peen around or rub it in the faces of those that are wrong. I'm simply above such childish antics.

[Jimuth]

Only Liara/VS/Joker/Edi can definitely survive the SM.

As we all know, BW conducted deep collection of playthrough data and analysed it. As an always customised femshep player, and in the minority data-wise, I fear continued profiling of crowd-sourcing as a game design mechanic but I wonder whether EA/BW will crunch the numbers to determine who comes back and how much of a role they will play. I'm sorry, but in the real world, the bean counters hold the power.

I am expecting cameos from everyone involved in ME2 - unless they're going to spend a ridiculous amount of money on getting all those actors back in for voice acting? Financially, it just doesn't make sense.

On the other hand, making the middle game in the arc be completely about squad build up to then throw it all away also doesn't make any sense (but neither does the Cerebus "lack of choice" in ME2). However, a middle way is possible where the characters are all non-party members and/or become DLC for those who want them (priority/likelihood driven by number crunching above).

I also feel that ME2 with all the DLC is too much of a muchness - when you add in Kasumi & Zaeed there seems to be too many loyalty missions to do, perhaps too big a squad!

Anyway, my 2 pence...

Something pants will happen at the beginning of ME3 to get rid of your squad, it has to. It is one way to explain thematically why the start of ME2 is the way it is ... it's a recurring leitmotif for Shepherd that she has to lose her team.

Something also has to happen to fill in the bridging DLC gaps from ME2. This could be a simple video where non-Arrival buyers see that their Sheps kill 305K Batarians.

Then the characters who are in ME2 (and who survived) will have Wrex on Tuchanka style cameos and not be part of the main plot.

Grunt - is a champion for Wrex/other Wrex or assumes control of clan Urdnot etc. Will be important to bring in the Krogans.

Thane - dead; number of different replays on that depending on what you did with him as a femshep, but voice acting level - not much $$ required

Samara/Morinth - departs; Samara - due to the 305K if nothing else, Morinth - another Justicar on her tail

Tali - becomes one of the admirals. Will be important to bring in the Quarians

Mordin - he (or another Salarian if Mordin dies in SM) has a small role to play. My bet for a DLC given the popularity of Mordin. Again, could be used as Salarian bridge.

Garrus - same as with Mordin

Miranda/Jacob - more difficult as it's hard to guess what BW will do with Cerebus if you paragon ME2. My bet is that Miranda/Jacob get killed off in ME3 quite early... "but the priiiiiiiize... euuuuerggggh"

Legion - same as Garrus/Mordin for the geth. Can be voiced by same guy as another geth to fit depending on Legion choices in ME2

Kasumi/Zaeed - very small cameos; not proper party members

Finally, the VS survivor - I can *see* them coming back in for the Alliance trial and perhaps one mission (escaping Earth?). Again, localised to one mission.

You have ME1 where Shepherd is junior to Anderson, then collects a team of aliens to whup Saren but this has a militaristic/council focus.

ME2 starts with Shepherds downfall then rebirth, then working for the enemy on a human-centric focus, but bringing in aliens again

ME3 then follows with the humans letting Shepherd down (either or both alliance/Cerberus) and the actions of ME2 determining (via the ME2 squad members) how easy it is to get alien assistance for the final big battle with the reapers.

So, I reckon ME3 will be a completely new smaller squad with lots of interaction with the old members in the style of Wrex on Tuchanka to fulfil the DA:O "unite the races to defeat the baddies". Nothing else makes financial sense to me, but will be happily amazed if BW prove me wrong!

[Elite Midget]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Midget, you are magnificent.

I wouldn't go that far. Bioware can still end up caveing to the Fanbase and make the story they want instead of the story that they, Bioware, planned to make. Which would most likely have the dead become important NPCs, a new squad, and have new features that will appeal to Customers that have never picked up a ME game before.

New features which may end up angering ME2 Fans just like ME2 new Features angered ME1 Fans.

[Clonedzero]

Elite Midget wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...
Dunno, man.  Mordin's pretty easy to kill in the SM.

 

What's worse, a divided fanbase with a small number of vocal protestors, or a united one that is pretty much universally disappointed?

Mordin is fairly easy to save. Though I have met those that sent an Unloyal Grunt back with the Survivors instead of their Loyal Mordin.

They will be united anyway. If their returning Squaddies make it in they will anger other Fans. If said returning ME2 Squaddies don't have any importance to the plot or are extremely silent throughout the game it will anger fans more than Cameo's. Because really... Without their dialouge they're just another boreing sack of meat without any depth.

well all of them are easy to save if you know how.

i know alot of people who lost mordin and jack their first playthroughs, myself included. happened because i sent grunt to escort the crew and brought garrus with me to fight the boss.

also i have yet to see any real reasons why they cant return as fully written squadmembers. i have a friend who never recruited samara (somehow he didnt even know she existed, dont ask me how), but she is an optional character. she's fully voiced, has unique models, mission, mission dialogue in other missions. you could completely miss thane too and he's a LI but he's techincially optional.

your only argument is that not everyone will have them. but not everyone recruited samara.

lemme think, you need to recruit the first set of people. garrus, mordin, grunt and jack. that triggers horizon, then you get the next set of people you can recruit and loyality missions unlock. doing any combo of 4(?) recruitments / loyality missions will trigger the collector ship / reaper IFF / suicide mission.

so if you want to get technical. Samara, Thane, Tali, Legion, and Grunt are all completely optional squadmates (not waking up grunt/legion) yet they are all full squadmates like the rest. obviously most people recruited everyone but still, they're completely optional.

just because one player can't have someone int heir squad due to their import doesnt mean no one else should.

[Zulu_DFA]

Elite Midget wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Midget, you are magnificent.

I wouldn't go that far. Bioware can still end up caveing to the Fanbase and make the story they want instead of the story that they, Bioware, planned to make. Which would most likely have the dead become important NPCs, a new squad, and have new features that will appeal to Customers that have never picked up a ME game before.

New features which may end up angering ME2 Fans just like ME2 new Features angered ME1 Fans.

I meant the way you put words together. I kinda wish you were in the "Cerberus is still with the Alliance" camp.

[Major Swift]

Elite Midget wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

I look forward to seeing if you have the balls to show up on the forums after ME:3 is released.  I have a ton of 'I told you so' pics saved up and even a video of someone pointing at the screen laughing.  Should be hillarious.

I have 27 save files so far only one of them doesn't have all survive, (my first play through) only one Squaddie died, like to guess which one?

Freisty, aren't'cha?

Believe me, I'm a man and if Bioware caves to their rabid Hardcores and screws over the New than I will eat my words. Though do know that you will most likely end up getting in trouble if you end up doing what I think you will do. After all, you seem like the petty type.

Me? If I'm proven right than I don't need to flaunt my E-peen around or rub it in the faces of those that are wrong. I'm simply above such childish antics.

they'll probably come up with a reasonable compromise between the two, something that'll satisfy everyone in one way or another, hopefully anyway

[AdmiralCheez]

Elite Midget wrote...

Mordin is fairly easy to save. Though I have met those that sent an Unloyal Grunt back with the Survivors instead of their Loyal Mordin.

Clarification: Mordin is very easy to kill by accident, since he is the first to go if the Hold the Line score is too low.

They will be united anyway. If their returning Squaddies make it in they will anger other Fans. If said returning ME2 Squaddies don't have any importance to the plot or are extremely silent throughout the game it will anger fans more than Cameo's. Because really... Without their dialouge they're just another boreing sack of meat without any depth.

Wait wait wait...  It's better to have all of your former customers mad at you than it is for a few of them to bicker with each other?

Anyway, when people say they want squadmates back, they are implying that they want Bioware to make an effort with it.  "Bring them back, but make them furniture" was never requested by anyone.  What most of us agree on is that want Bioware to take care not to trivialize our past decisions or toss aside the crew we've come to know and love.

Although, reading your most recent posts, I'm glad you've taken my advice to heart.  It's much easier to see the points you're trying to make now that I don't have to dig through the insults

EDIT: Typo.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 01 avril 2011 - 10:44 .