330 réponses à ce sujet

[AdmiralCheez]

mrsph wrote...

Character development is ruining a character. They should remain static lumps of plastic forever.

I love you.  Really, I do.

[Clonedzero]

oh yeah, i'd love a batarian squadmate, my shepard is a colonist that'd make for some interesting dialogue. make him like a crude fighter type character too, the ME3 version of zaeed lol

AND GIVE HIM AN EYEPATCH just like over one of those top small eyes. that'd be awesome, i dunno why thats so funny but it is.

[Dave666]

Arcian wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Character development is ruining a character. They should remain static lumps of plastic forever.

I was going to retort with saying Tali's character development made no sense, i.e a bubbly, perky girl turning into a shrinking violet for seemingly no reason.

But then i had a moment of unprecedented clarity and fridge brilliance, coming out of nowhere.

I realized her timid and insecure personality comes from the fact that upon returning home after completing her pilgrimage, she were given a lot of responsibility, partially because she's Admiral Rael's daughter but mainly because she fought beside Shepard against the geth and the Reapers, becoming the quarian equivalent of a superhero in the process. Overestimating her ability, the powers that be within the migrant fleet sent her on difficult missions well above her experience and qualificaton. This has led to a lot of setbacks and failures which has made her insecure and doubt her own ability, which explains her vastly different behavior in ME2.

See its funny how easy it is to think up these things and yet some people just won't even try and claim plot hole or bad writing or what have you. (Done it myself once or twice but once corrected I accept it and move on).

[AdmiralCheez]

@Arcian: Dude. Nice. You and I, our minds have synced.

@Dave666: If the answer as to why something happened is not immediately apparent, it's a plothole and the writers are just making stuff up without justifying it.  If it is immediately apparent, then the authors think we're stupid and are spoon-feeding everything to us.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 02 avril 2011 - 01:09 .

[Seboist]

Clonedzero wrote...

oh yeah, i'd love a batarian squadmate, my shepard is a colonist that'd make for some interesting dialogue. make him like a crude fighter type character too, the ME3 version of zaeed lol

AND GIVE HIM AN EYEPATCH just like over one of those top small eyes. that'd be awesome, i dunno why thats so funny but it is.

A Batarian squadmate seems more likely now than ever with Arrival's implication that the Batarians are going to play a large part in ME3's story.

I also have my fingers crossed for a Vorcha squadmate. It could have some great Zaeed like stories to tell like how it's lost various limbs(and later regrew them) after fierce battles.

[Dave666]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

@Arcian: Dude. Nice. You and I, our minds have synced.

@Dave666: If the answer as to why something happened is not immediately apparent, it's a plothole and the writers are just making stuff up without justifying it.  If it is immediately apparent, then the authors think we're stupid and are spoon-feeding everything to us.

I know Cheez, I was using it in a silly fashion to point out how some people behave.  There have been a few plot holes in the two ME games but nothing that major and even they may end up being brilliantly explained in ME:3 and some things that people claim as plot holes can be readilly explained with a little thought. We might be wrong, but at least then the story or what have you makes sense to us and we move on. 

[Clonedzero]

Seboist wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

oh yeah, i'd love a batarian squadmate, my shepard is a colonist that'd make for some interesting dialogue. make him like a crude fighter type character too, the ME3 version of zaeed lol

AND GIVE HIM AN EYEPATCH just like over one of those top small eyes. that'd be awesome, i dunno why thats so funny but it is.

A Batarian squadmate seems more likely now than ever with Arrival's implication that the Batarians are going to play a large part in ME3's story.

I also have my fingers crossed for a Vorcha squadmate. It could have some great Zaeed like stories to tell like how it's lost various limbs(and later regrew them) after fierce battles.

oh god, no vorcha squadmates, they sound so annoying lol i'd never talk to it, i'd put it in a cage and pike it with a stick. then he'd probably get his vorcha pyro pal to turn the corner and chain stun me with his damn flamethrower

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The only established character ruined in ME2 was Liara. Her character development is a train wreck.

Yes.  It freaked me the hell out, too.

However, I'm gonna run through it just the same...

Liara starts out as a naive, soft-spoken, and socially awkward nerd.  However, she's a powerful biotic and knows how to defend herself, plus she's very much one to charge into risky sitations (goes out on expeditions alone)
and has a bit of a rebellious streak, as shown in her relationship with her mother.  She loves digging up and analyzing new information, and is quite intelligent, given her age.

So, before she even meets Shepard, she is...

-powerful
-independent
-smart
-awkward
-innocent

Now, during the events of ME1, she witnesses the corruption and death of her own mother.  She sees hundreds of people killed and comes to realize how fragile the galaxy really is.  You don't go through this sort of thing and retain your innocence.  She also falls in love with Shepard, whether you like it or not.

So, by the end of ME1, Liara is...

-powerful
-independent
-smart
-awkward

Now, between ME1 and 2, sh*t hits the fan.  Shepard dies.  Liara, having such deep feelings for Shepard, is willing to work with Cerberus to get her/him back, and isn't afraid to take action after facing down geth, rachni, and krogan.  However, after the one friend she makes during this journey is captured, she has no one left in her life to lean on.

And here's where it gets funky.  I guess, after losing Feron, she suffers a breakdown of sorts.  Maybe she couldn't handle so many people she cared about being taken away from her.  All the world has ever done for her is to either take from her or ignore her, and everyone that had ever been an exception to the rule was now either out of reach or dead.  She directed this frustration at the one who had taken her only remaining friend from her--the Shadow Broker--and this rage, after festering for so long, turned into a desire for revenge.

That's the one part I don't get--would Liara, even after everything she'd been through, still go all revenge-crazy?  This is the "WTF" element in all this.

Anyway, moving on.  In order to get to the Shadow Broker, Liara has to learn how to play his game.  To be an successful information broker, she has to learn how to interact with people, to negotiate with them, intimidate if necessary.  The adorkable habits of old are done away with as a matter of survival.  No one cares for her, so she cares for no one.  There is nothing left for her but survival and revenge.

So, when ME2 starts, Liara is...

-powerful
-independent
-smart
-ruthless


Then, during the whole LotSB shebang, Liara realizes that Feron is still alive and can save him.  Immediately, she abandons her desire for revenge and focuses on saving a dear friend.  This, and the return of Shepard, bring back the goodness in her and melt away the rough shell she'd surrounded herself in while on Ilium.

So now, at the end of ME2, Liara is...

-powerful
-independent
-smart
-mature

If you look at post-LotSB Liara and the original Liara, really, all that happened is that she grew up.  The probelm here is that WTF-section in the middle.  So yeah, her character was derailed, but in the end it got back on track.

[AdmiralCheez]

Dave666 wrote...

I know Cheez, I was using it in a silly fashion to point out how some people behave.  There have been a few plot holes in the two ME games but nothing that major and even they may end up being brilliantly explained in ME:3 and some things that people claim as plot holes can be readilly explained with a little thought. We might be wrong, but at least then the story or what have you makes sense to us and we move on.

It's cool, because I was, too.  And yeah, I acknowledge sloppy writing when it happens, but for the most part the story's doing okay.

[xzxzxz701]

Saphra Deden wrote...

mrsph wrote...

There really wasn't much you could do with Liara without having to massively derail her.

Actually there is plenty you could do. Liara was a scientist who studied Protheans. So in ME2 she should be a scientist who studies Protheans. Perhaps after discovering the Collectors were once Protheans we seek her out and recruit her help in stopping the Collectors. Her knowledge of the Protheans might have been helpful in discovering Collector weaknesses.

Another aspect of Liara's character was that she was not an emotional person. Oh, she felt emotions alright, but she responded to them logically. So much so that she was willing to kill her own mother for the sake of the mission. She was not the kind of person to obsses over lost love or friend.

Ever since that first comic came out Liara has been out of character. Completely.

No, people change, especially over 2 years. Liara saved Sheps body and gave it to TIM, and while doing so her friend who betrayed the Shadow Broker sacrafised himself so Liara could get away. In ME2 Liara was not just a scientist anymore, she had to use her skills to deal in information and get her friend back.

The fact is, people change. Even in video games.

[Mr0TYuH]

There's a difference between a plothole and not liking the choices the writers took. I'll agree that the crying plothole is like crying wolf on these boards, but that doesn't invalidate the arguement. I don't think the writers should pander to me, but I still hope I'll be happy with the end result. For example, you were able to spend time in the first game teaching Garrus patience and the importance of how you do something. At the end of the game, he states he is going to rejoin C-Sec and apply to be a Spectre. In the second game, you get a throw away line about how he tried before he lost patience and went vigillante. I don't like that choice by the writers. I feel it was lazy and invalidated the choices made in the first game.

I feel the same way about the characters in ME2. They're pretty much the same. Childhood trauma with a heart of gold. We were supposed to be recruiting the most badass squad in the galaxy. With the exception of Zaeed, Grunt and Morinth, they all fit into the heart of gold catagory.

Thane: Assassin with a heart of gold
Solus: Mad scientist with a heart of gold
Miranda: Ice Queen with a heart of gold
Jack: Psychopath with a heart of gold
Kasumi: Thief with a heart of gold
Legion: Robot with a heart of gold
Jacob: Soldier with a heart of gold

While I like some of the characters individually, taken as a group, I feel it was lazy writing. I would have liked a psychopath that was a psychopath. I would have liked to have had a character that was extremely dangerous to recruit but ultimately worth it due to their skills. I would have liked Mordin to be completely amoral and feel the knowledge gained was worth any suffering his research caused. Instead, we have someone whose work was beneficial but still feels the need to "do good" with his last years. We have Thane who claims he was merely an instrument, but still feels the need to "do good" with the time he has left. I would have liked it to be like Baldur's Gate were some squadmates refused to work together. Instead, we can make everything better if you have high enough Charm or Intimidate. I would have liked Miranda to pull a gun on me when I told TIM what I thought about his plan to keep the Collector Base. None of these are plotholes, but they are choices made by the writers that I don't particularly care for.

As for Liara becoming the Shadow Broker, she had the type of personality that wanted to know everything. Becoming jaded due to her experiences, she could fit in very well in the infomation brokerage field. It may not be a choice by the writers people like, but it is plausible for her personality type.

[AdmiralCheez]

@Mr0TYuH: So... you want characters that are all one-dimensional? No thanks--I like it better when they feel real.  I like a cast I can relate to and care about.

I think it's a matter of taste, here.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 02 avril 2011 - 03:29 .

[Mr0TYuH]

@AdmiralCheez

While I'll agree that it's a matter of tastes, I feel I may not have been clear if you feel I was describing one-dimensional characters. Also, as I said, I like many of the characters, it's just they start feeling the same when taken as a group.

I'm not very eloquent, so I try to explain using Jack as an example. We were told she was a psychopath. While she ended up being tough-as-nails, she did not exhibit much in the way of psychopathic tendencies. In the end, she ended up being a scared girl with abandonment issues and Survivor's Guilt who really wishes she was normal. You call this a character you can relate to. I call it a cliche Hollywoodesque character. I don't believe in normal. I think everyone is different and has different goals, even if they are alien and incomprehensible to me. Like they said in the Dark Knight, "Some people just want to watch the world burn." I would have liked Jack to be bat**** crazy, get warm tingly feelings when she snuffed out a life and ultimately be dead inside. It wouldn't have even precluded a romance. It just would have been a dysfunctional one.

ME2 was supposed to be about making deals with devils. With the possible exception of TIM, that wasn't the case. I would have liked some of the characters to have been people you wanted to take a shower with after speaking with them but you needed them for this impossible mission, so you couldn't afford to just throw them out the airlock, even if doing so would have done the galaxy a favor. BioWare claimed the game was going to be dark. I was expecting something much darker. Once again, I didn't want every character like that, but the only one that came close was Morinth.

I want deep characters. I just want some variety. I wanted tough choices. So far, most of the choices have been easy. I usually lean towards the Paragon, but I want some of those choices to bite me on the backside, not always be rewarded. I have always understood the first two games will be very linear, since you need to be at the same place for the third game. I hope the third game has wildly diverging paths. I would love to have to make the choice between someone who is completely repulsive but very, very good at what they do and someone who is a good person but not as effective. That would be a tough choice.

But as you said, it's probably just a matter of taste.

[AdmiralCheez]

So do I, but I didn't have a problem with the characters. Jack still likes to kill people, you know.

[Mr0TYuH]

@AdmiralCheez

I respect your opinion, so I should let this lie, but I'm going to be a bit of a tool and point this out anyway. Jack said she enjoyed fighting, not killing. There's a big difference between someone who enjoys the adrenaline rush of sympathetic arousal, especially when conditioned for it as a child, and some sick bastard that relishes all the teeny tiny emotions that flitter in a victims eyes as they slowly sick the knife in.

Anyway, this is all moot. As I said, I would have liked the writers to have made different choices, but they didn't. As I posted earlier in the thread, I am against a new squad in ME3. 90% of ME2 was building your squad, so I would rather not rehash that story. It's pointless playing "what ifs" at this point. I can only hope the writers will give us something we'll all enjoy in ME3.

Modifié par Mr0TYuH, 02 avril 2011 - 05:42 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Mr0TYuH wrote...

@AdmiralCheez

I respect your opinion, so I should let this lie, but I'm going to be a bit of a tool and point this out anyway. Jack said she enjoyed fighting, not killing. There's a big difference between someone who enjoys the adrenaline rush of sympathetic arousal, especially when conditioned for it as a child, and some sick bastard that relishes all the teeny tiny emotions that flitter in a victims eyes as they slowly sick the knife in.

Understood.  However, you can still get Morinth, who fits that bill perfectly.

Anyway, this is all moot. As I said, I would have liked the writers to have made different choices, but they didn't. As I posted earlier in the thread, I am against a new squad in ME3. 90% of ME2 was building your squad, so I would rather not rehash that story. It's pointless playing "what ifs" at this point. I can only hope the writers will give us something we'll all enjoy in ME3.

Agree 100%.