91 réponses à ce sujet

[Oneiropolos]

 I'm posting this here because people's responses may delve into story and spoilers. We have a thread for good quests... and even favorite lines... but what about overall arching characters and their developments? There's plenty of threads saying "The writers shouldn't have done this _____" but let's make one for the positive. 
Things in characters that I thought were done exceptionally well:
1. ANDERS
I'll be the first to say that I did NOT like the change between Awakening!Anders and DAII!Anders. I much preferred our mage in Awakening. But that does not at all lessen how his descent into what I would honestly call insanity was written throughout Dragon Age II. His zealotry from the beginning had other characters harping on him, and he gets progressively 'worse'. By the end, we have a tormented man who is barely a shell of his former self, to the point where some even feel it is showing him mercy to knife him. This took consistently skilled writing that could not afford to waver from who Anders is NOW. So even if it pained those of us who wanted Awakening!Anders back, his current pathos could be counted on. We can moan who he became, but not that HE swerved from who he became in the game. Bravo.

2. FENRIS
I love Fenris. I don't care who wants to call him a broody mage hater. The man...er.. elf.. is hilarious. My boyfriend was consistently making fun of me because I enlisted Fenris earlier on this playthrough (my fourth) and brought Fenris along on quests I hadn't before. So I got to hear Fenris's delightfully snarky comments that I hadn't previously heard and fell in love with him all over again. The fact is, Fenris is scathing and snarky but also incredibly insightful and witty. I don't know whether this was WRITTEN for his character or how the voice actor just chose to portray it or what... but early in the game when Fenris laughs, it's this sort of almost surprised, startled short laugh that he clears his throat after or coughs or something because it clearly flusters him that he let down his guard enough to laugh.  As he gets to know Hawke, he seems to laugh much more freely, and even your companions begin to hear his more wry wit. I LOVED this progression. It showed a brilliant shift from a backed into a corner, hunted person to someone who is finally getting comfortable in his own skin again (er... no pun intended with the tattoos).  I SO wanted to get to have more conversations with Fenris, talk to him more about what memories he could slowly remember, especially after he saw his sister again. When Fenris spoke up when we visited the Arishok for the first time, I completely had a shocked expression on my face about him knowing the Qun. I already knew I'd love Fenris, but damn, intelligence is sexy.  


3. VARRIC
Okay, so, when all of the rest of you posted before the game released that Varric was attractive and he should be an LI and all that... I wondered if you were drunk. Now? I'd TOTALLY go for Varric as an LI. Varric seems like he'd be a character that would be  hard to get RIGHT in writing. He's got this tough guy persona... I mean, his first shot is pinning someone to a wall because they stole your coin pouch... but he's paying off people to keep them away from Anders' clinic and to keep Merill safe. He even shows that gentle older brother image briefly to Fenris if he's there when Fenris decides not to kill his own sister. It showed a perfect vulnerability to Varric, that he understood that everyone else going "Hey, it's your sibling!!!" doesn't count for anything when you feel that betrayed.  Varric would know, after all, he went through it. He's tough, but gentle, he's scathing but kind, he's hard to read and yet sometimes wears his heart on his sleeve. Varric is a huge bunch of contradictions that shouldn't be believeable but he IS and he's so loveable. I want to take Varric out drinking with me and I don't even drink! 


Those are my top three, though they're by no means the ONLY three that come to mind. What about the rest of you? Which characters, even if they were just NPCs for one quest, did you feel the writers deserve applause for? It's probably the literature minor in me, analyzing all the writing like that, but I can't help it.  Quests are pretty in your face about whether they're good or bad.. actual characterizations themselves can be more subtle. I'd love to hear everyone's opinions so I know what to keep an ear out for on this playthrough in terms of characters I might not have looked at so closely before. 

[Asdara]

The sign of excellence with me for Bioware games has become: obsessive contemplation of Fanfiction... and this game has accomplished that. ME2 didn't, DAO did with the Awakenings sidecare...and so did DA 2.

If one writer inspiring another to write something, even if they never share it (I'm not an internet publisher) then I think it is successful.

Really, there are problems, but... still. I love it in the majority.

... Bioware: if you cut out romances or companionship I will shun you forever in eternal sadness.

... I've had a bit to drink tonight.

[LobselVith8]

I thought Anders was one of the more interesting characters in DA2. Dealing with the injustice of his people and the Spirit of Justice in his head. I really enjoyed the character of Merrill, too, and seeing how she was growing accustomed to a completely foreign land and building a relationship with her as a fellow apostate.

[Foolsfolly]

Merrill's journey is tragic.

She's emotionally scarred from the fact that her friend(s) disappeared because of coming in contact with the Mirror. Despite her Keeper's warnings Merrill keeps a piece of the mirror and desperately wants to use it for some good, so the loss of Tamlen/Warden has meaning.

Her obsession (and it truly becomes one) stems from both that past and her desire to help her people. She's very honor and duty bound to her clan and honestly believes that anything from their past is worth keeping despite the danger.

She succumbs to blood magic and attempts to cleanse the mirror with blood magic (which according to Fenris and Anders isn't possible). This action gets her ostracized from the very people she's trying to help and she's lost her extended family.

She spends six years in a small house in the Alienage working on the mirror, only going back to her people to demand another item to fix the mirror. Regardless of how you handle that she continues working on the mirror, even if she tells you she'll stop.

She has to help her people, regardless of danger.

And then when the mirror is complete and still won't work she runs out of options. She has to return to the demon and find out what's missing. She brings Hawke to cut her down if she turns into an Abomination and says her goodbyes to the party you bring up with her.

And then her Keeper pays Merrill's price out of stupid love. She'd rather die than let Merrill suffer, it's oddly heroic and completely moronic (see Alistair refusing to let the Warden take the killing blow in Origins).

And then when trying to calm her people down, they attack out fear of her....and she's all that's left. Her quest to save her people has led to their destruction.

Saddest storyline in the whole game. Extremely well done. I enjoyed seeing Merrill finally break that cursed mirror...if only she'd done earlier.

She's also the only companion I'd like to see come back in another game. She has a lot of directions to go after DA2. Can't say that about many of them. I feel we're pretty much done with Varric, Aveline, Anders, Isabela, and Fenris. They may cameo but their story's feel complete.

[Oneiropolos]

That's interesting, Foolsfolly. Anders is obviously the most controversial character of DAII, but I think Merrill is equally so, in a much more quiet manner. People seem really divided on her. What you just described is fascinating.. what I basically saw viewing Merrill before was a foolish woman who brought about her own self-destruction by refusing to listen to anyone else. I WANTED To like her, because I even love Eve Myles, but I couldn't. But perhaps after reading your take on it, I'll try to give her a firmer shot this time around. I haven't recruited her yet, so perfect timing.

[Foolsfolly]

There's a few ways to take Merrill. The supportive Merrill storyline is different. It basically has Hawke tell her constantly that she's right and everyone else is ignorant. It can still lead to the clan's death but afterwards Hawke just placates her by saying it's the Keeper's fault.

I like the Rival relationship with her. It fits both my opinion and it's the better storyline. Otherwise she's kinda like a Wesley Crusher character as written by Joss Whedon. You know, a cute Ms Know-it-All.

[Arppis]

Anders sure made a nice "main villain" for the story.

[GSSAGE7]

If Act 1 Anders was closer to how he was in Awakening, and simply made bigger personality jumps during time skips, a good portion of complaints about him would've stopped IMO

Modifié par GSSAGE7, 31 mars 2011 - 05:48 .

[PirateT138]

Fenris is an androgynous, whiny, little beta-male (name for a cat) that I hated from the get go. He's a he/she with sissy arms that I don't imagine could swing a butter knife much less create the energy required to swing a 2hander with any appreciable force. He's got that emo/jRPG hair that just pisses me off just looking at it. The first time I heard him be mean and awful (truly venomous) to Merill, whom I was romancing at the time, I would have thrown his ass off the next bridge we came upon, last I knew his little spirit fingers trick did not include a parachute.

So, respectfully, I disagree, Fenris is a travesty.

It was the highlight of my game when I got to bash his skull into nothing when he sided against me at the end.

[Deztyn]

GSSAGE7 wrote...

If Act 1 Anders was closer to how he was in Awakening, and simply made bigger personality jumps during time skips, a good portion of complaints about him would've stopped IMO

This.

It's hard to connect with him and think of him as Anders and not just Anders 2.0 when he starts off so different from the Original Model. And changing out Greg for Adam made it worse.

Edit to be more on topic:

Anders 2.0 was a very well written character.

I just don't like him much as a character.

Modifié par Deztyn, 31 mars 2011 - 06:00 .

[Foolsfolly]

GSSAGE7 wrote...

If Act 1 Anders was closer to how he was in Awakening, and simply made bigger personality jumps during time skips, a good portion of complaints about him would've stopped IMO

I agree. I also think the whole 'Show Don't Tell' thing plays into this. Had we met Anders while he was still Anders and not Justice/Anders then the change would be massive. Instead we're told he merged and we meet new wrathful chaotic good Anders.

Another thing the writers got right.

Shepherding Wolves. The whole quest. The introduction to Petrice was great, the non-dialogue for the Saarebas was great, and the final moments of the quest are great. The Qunari are some of the best things to come out of DA2 and this quest really helped explain more about their culture. The Saarebas character, both before he spoke and after, were amazing.

Who thought BioWare could make you care for a non-talking character? It was great. I wish he hung around for longer.

Of course, I'll also throw in the Arishok for best written. The Qunari culture is interesting and flawed. It's like they live in a utopia but the cost of living in that utopia is fascism.

[Deztyn]

Foolsfolly,

Shepherding Wolves was fantastic.

No matter which choices you make when you meet the Arvaarad, the ending is absolutely gutwrenching. During my last playthrough I turned him over instead of trying to defend him and it hit me even harder than the self-immolation. It was also the perfect example of how to lead a player along a preset path while allowing the illusion of choice. The endstate is the same no matter what, but that's entirely due to the Qunari beliefs not player choices and how we get to that end (Saarebas and Arvaarad dead)  is different enough it doesn't feel forced. If the whole game had been written like that you wouldn't hear so many people complain about railroading.

Modifié par Deztyn, 31 mars 2011 - 06:14 .

[TheBlackBaron]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I like the Rival relationship with her. It fits both my opinion and it's the better storyline. Otherwise she's kinda like a Wesley Crusher character as written by Joss Whedon. You knowlAl, a cute Ms Know-it-All.

I don't think it's that bad; if it were you wouldn't have Fenris and Anders berating her all the time (which they deserve a good punch in the throat for doing, especially Anders). I do agree that from a story perspective the Rivalry path is better, since conflict is a natural driver of story and with Hawke cheering her on from the sidelines there's just not much of it. I'd also like to credit the writers for letting me use the snarky options to basically support Merrill without it getting into "willfully blind" territory. 

On top of Sheparding Wolves, I'd also like to throw in the various qunari quests in Act II. That really is the highlight of the game home to what I feel is some of BioWare's best writing to date. The gradual build-up of tensions accomplished throughout it just very well done, as is how everything breaks down and the social divisions within the city start becoming highly apparant, such as how the Alienage elves are willing to fight alongside the qunari in the battle. It's a shame it's pretty much all downhill from there. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 31 mars 2011 - 06:25 .

[Fieryeel]

I agree Merrill's story was tragic but excellent.

I even dreamed about her last night. Okay, that was creepy.

[Foolsfolly]

Fieryeel wrote...

I agree Merrill's story was tragic but excellent.

I even dreamed about her last night. Okay, that was creepy.

Shh, this is the BioWare boards. You haven't even reached to the creepy level of the Talimancers live with. I like Tali too but.....weird fanfic and drawings....just creepy.

[Oneiropolos]

Do keep in mind everyone A) The thread is for what the writers did right. You may have disliked a character, but certainly you can come up with well-articulated reasons you DID like another. It is possible to dislike a character and have entirely articulate reasons for doing so. It does not mean they were -written- badly. One can dislike snarky, harsher characters, and if you do, Fenris certainly isn't enjoyable for you to be around. But for example, insulting his physical structure has nothing to do with writing and is entirely irrelevant to the thread.

As I said in the first post, let's try to keep this one positive.

I'll throw another one into the pot:

Flemmeth! I actually didn't care about her in DA:O and completely bought into the "She's evil, she must die". I'm not sure I'm actually convinced she's not evil and she shouldn't die, but I felt like her sense of humor was much better conveyed in DAII. I found myself amused by her and thought several of the things she said were quite wise, even if you aren't sure whether you should take her seriously or not. Well done!

[Lianaar]

Flemeth was certainly more flashed out in this sequel.
Merril story is wonderful, even for those who do not romance her, because it shows the interaction of various personalities and explains well how two people wanting only the best can end up in the worst possible scenario mostly due to their good intents and love for a person or a group of people.

I personally liked the story of Anders. I didn't like Anders himself, but for me, there were no jumps in personality (might have inserted a few things automatically), regardless the change was smooth and acceptable for me. I particularly loved the way this change was presented in the relationship between Varric and Anders. From the point of them being really good friends, to a point where Varric just claims, Blondie is fun no more, and possibly warns Hawke from Anders (in case of a romance), inclusive the pillow scene, which was both awkward (in good sense) and tragic.

I enjoyed the story of the Grand Cleric. She had her faults, she is a rather controversial character. I very much can see why some think her a weasel, some think her a martyr. She certainly wasn't stupid and she was authoritative enough to make people like Meredith and Orsino both shut up, when she talks. Even Petrice (while surprised and disappointed) accepted her decision. The grand cleric had so many good and bad sides, that her character was very enjoyable.

The history of Kirkwall. The lore that was to be found in various ways was engaging for me. BW paid attention to whom the lore is from and depending on the writer's personality, the written style and the perception changed. Thus my characters could decide what opinions to agree with and which to just put aside as: oh yeah, (s)he is rambling again. Some sections were picking my curiosity and are good base to speculation of the whats and whys of events.

Fenryel's story as it was a very good tool for Hawke's character to be flashed out. It gave various means to respond to a base situation surrounding magic and listed the typical approach of outside people too.

I would have loved the three dwarven brother's story, were it not reminiscent to Bertrand's betrayal. That took from enjoyment value of the plot. Otherwise it was well written and anew listen an option for Hawke to intone his or her own character. Regretfully it quite a bit felt like a "typical dwarf" way of handling matters, and this not in the best sense.

[TheBlackBaron]

Lianaar wrote...

The history of Kirkwall. The lore that was to be found in various ways was engaging for me. BW paid attention to whom the lore is from and depending on the writer's personality, the written style and the perception changed. Thus my characters could decide what opinions to agree with and which to just put aside as: oh yeah, (s)he is rambling again. Some sections were picking my curiosity and are good base to speculation of the whats and whys of events. 

YES. One of these days I'd like to get my hands on the design documents for Kirkwall, as the sections setting up its background and lore would be an amazing read. You can tell that for all the complaints about the game being rushed and the city feeling lifeless, the writers really did put in a lot of work and there are some fascinating little details hidden amidst everything. Kirkwall's secret history as discovered by the Band of Three in particular stood out a lot more and seemed far more intriuging than some of the storylines Hawke was actively participating in.

In fact, if you'll allow me to complain again for a moment, that's one thing that's really dissapointing about the game's story, to have all these fascinating little threads that I thought for sure would be weaved in and explored in greater depth as the game went on never surfaced. The discoveries of the Band of Three would have fit in very well in Act III, for example. 

[Foolsfolly]

Seriously, the Lore for Kirkwall was great. I loved everything I found on it. I loved opening the Codex and reading everything I could on the place. It's an extremely interesting location for a story to take place in, the writer's totally knew the city had to be interesting if a whole game was to be set there.

The problem with it is all out of the writer's hands. Perhaps the story could have touched back on more of its history actively, but the Lore's great. One of the more interesting aspects of the game.

And all you do is sit still and read off a screen.

[supakillaii]

I have to heavily agree on that, most of the Codex was bloody well written, though some, like some DLC items, had... not as good writing, in my opinion.

[varcety]

Merrill is the best written character in the series. Period.

Modifié par varcety, 31 mars 2011 - 07:27 .

[Deztyn]

Oneiropolos made me feel guilty for not giving enough praise. 

I think the best part of the game was your party's interactions with each other. Origins and Awakening had it's banters and ME1 had the elevator rides but in DA2 for the first time I really felt like the companions had lives that didn't revolve around the PC. Whether it was Isabella going to Anders clinic for treatment, Fenris mentioning playing games with Donnic, Varric and Carver sniping at each other followed by a comment about going for drinks later, or that Anders would want to give Varric one of his most precious possessions before the big blow up, there were so many moments that made you think of these characters as real people.

And a more minor thing. Taking the quest to discredit Conrad Vernerhart the "Brilliant" and "Ruthless" Templar made me lol.

Modifié par Deztyn, 31 mars 2011 - 07:33 .

[Foolsfolly]

Party Banter that seemed to remember previous banter. It's not perfect but I like how the character's opinions on one another changed over the years. I liked how Merrill and Varric got along, or how Merrill and Isabela became close friends. Likewise I liked how Varric and Anders grew distant over the years.

That was a nifty job by the writers. It made the characters feel like they were changing over time without it being some quest-dialogue it was near random banter. Made them feel more alive.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 31 mars 2011 - 07:47 .

[Alelsa]

Stepping to a slightly different level - I think what the writers did right was the idea behind the story as a whole.
The execution could have been handled better, but I certainly liked that they tried to step away from the (IMHO) overdone "hero needs to gather allies against giant evil villain/god/monster" formula. It was a refreshing change.