91 réponses à ce sujet

[Knightly_BW]

What more impressed me in DA 2 more than companion character development is the significant effort put in not-so-really important NPCs.

From the first moment I see him in game I hated Gamlen until on one run I clicked on him and heard his story. What he went thru ain't nice. Even I started to see Leandra as greedy hag she is. She didn't even (or thanks to devs we can't do that either) invite his brother to live with us in the mansion.

Other one is Keran and how you can follow his life thru the years (you need to cast him out of templars to get additional quests and info about his life) he feels like the hidden gem of DA 2 for me. Tho' his looks help that too... >.<

So far all the companions I get close has very good back stories and good bases for their behaviors. (Aveline, Fenris, Varrick, Carver and Merrill for me. Isabela never stayed long with my two runs, hoping to know her better with my warrior and can't stand Anders.)

And lastly story arcs, they are keep your interest going and it is a big bonus for a game whose main plot starts on Act 3. I am really happy to learn more about other things which are none related to wardens or darkspawn. I understand Sten and Qunari better. Understand how Chantry can manipulate things and how Templars can be dangerous. In DA:O I saw middle ground characters but in DA 2 I witnessed extremes of mages, templars, chantry and qunari.

[Lianaar]

In that regard I utterly loved the relationship between Aveline and Isabela. They hated each other utterly in the beginning, but slowly got used to each other, see each other's good sides. They still argued and cursed at each other, but the words due to the previous banter and the intonation changed meaning, even if it remained the same (thinking on Aveline's "shut up ****" line, or Isabela's "That's my girl" response). Eventually Aveline complains about Isa not showing up at her party and Isa showing some character with her explanation. Aveline had a lot of insight due to Isabela, be it in regards of her own personality, limits or about her marriage.

edit: Oh yes, Gamlen, whom we loved to hate so much. Even he turned out to have some real heavy motivations aside from wanting money. He had his miserable life, but he had his moments. On one of my playthrough he even got to confess that he is really happy to have me around and that my char is his favorite family. In his very own way, he did his best to help. And no, he is no saint, but his family didn't have much consideration for him either (seriously, having your son take care of you for years while you are dying and then leave everything on your daughter who just ran off and left you to die alone, even task her to supervise you? In RL I would have been iffed about this too.)

Modifié par Lianaar, 31 mars 2011 - 07:49 .

[Foolsfolly]

I don't know, I think mostly NPCs stepped back from Origins. Origins had Bhelan, Loghain, Irving, Jowen, Duncan, and others that I just wanted to know more about. In DA2 if they weren't companions I really didn't find them that interesting, except for Knight-Captain Cullen but he only impressed me in the finale.

I really like the Companions in DA2 a lot. They all have their own story and they all change over the course of the game. But the NPCs? There's really not many that stand out, at least not in my opinion.

On topic:

I love how much work had to go into the gifts this time around. The gifts have to be something that gives both Friendship and Rival points. That couldn't have been easy to figure out and largely they're great. The only one I found a little weak was the Tevinter Chantry amulet. It works fine for rival points but....Anders didn't strike me as Mr. Chantry in this game.

[Deztyn]

Lianaar, I absolutely loved Gamlen. I don't care what other people say. Gamlen and Carver are Hawke's best family members. Loyal and helpful in spite of their issues.

[dantares83]

Merrill's storyline is indeed one of the best. i was spoiled by the game itself coz of that stupid bug!!! So I know the keeper will be dying at one point... but still.. when the keeper explained she did all that for Merrill, it was one of the most touching scenes in the games..

i almost teared...

[Foolsfolly]

Deztyn wrote...

Lianaar, I absolutely loved Gamlen. I don't care what other people say. Gamlen and Carver are Hawke's best family members. Loyal and helpful in spite of their issues.

....you know. I'm going to have to try another playthrough (been meaning to do a Mage Origins import anyway) and see if I can figure out if there's more to Gamlen then my first three plays throughs showed me. I didn't like the guy, not at all, but....why not try to give him a chance this time?

[Oneiropolos]

I think the sentiment behind making the amulet 'friend' points too is because it's a TEVINTER chantry amulet. In Tevinter, the Chantry is not part of the oppression to mages, so it is a reminder that it doesn't 'have' to be that way. At least, that's what I figured.

And Deztyn *laughs* I didn't mean to make anyone feel guilty for not giving enough praise. To a writer, any praise is enough. I write plots for a different game and I know I personally get all stupidly happy when the players comment on -liking- something. It's very easy to get players to tell you everything they think went wrong.. in fact, they positively line up to do it! It's much harder to get them to volunteer, "Hey, this went really well." And then I'm totally immature when they do and squeal to myself and clap my hands and totally have to share it with others. >.> Who generally have no idea what I'm talking about. I just ACT professional in front of the players.

Constructive criticism is useful, but sometimes a few simple words of praise is what makes you really want to try harder and do even -better- the next time, because then you'll really manage to thrill them.

Edit: I'm not saying there's not a time and place for criticism, because there totally is. I haven't been shy about features I didn't like. I just thought it might be fun to have a thread for praise. 

And so I don't double post on myself, Gamlen won me over after Leandra's death, even though he was harsh at first he leaves on a softer note (at least towards female Hawkes) and if you haven't visited him in ACT III, do so. There's a quest starting in his house, and it REALLY gives you a better view of Gamlen. I was already starting to soften towards Gamlen, but the quest made me really feel bad for him and appreciate him. Even if he'll always be the gruff one. 

Modifié par Oneiropolos, 31 mars 2011 - 08:18 .

[Deztyn]

Fools,

I think it's a subjective thing. I have this idea that family is about hating each other, arguing all the time and still sticking by each other in end more than just being nice, supportive and agreeing with each other.

Gamlen has you settle some debts for him. Yes, but how else is he going to get you into the city? He asks Leandra to contribute rent or grocery money? The Hawkes whine and I say: What!? You were mooching off him the entire time!? Oh, he took the inheritance? Leandra, you ran off a quarter of a century ago and had absolutely no intention of ever coming back. If there hadn't been a Blight was he supposed to keep everything for you until you died of old age in Lothering? (Legally, yes. Still.) And it's sad and pathetic that their parents seemed to dismiss him so completely even while he was taking care of them. Gamlen's not perfect, but I understand him.

Carver is great fun if you take him around everywhere and embrace your sibling rivalry. I think the main problem people have with him is they keep trying to please him and be friendly and are annoyed they can't. Well that and becoming a templar, but since my Mage Hawke told him to stop whining about about mother's name and live up to his, she wasn't bothered that he decided to do exactly that.

Oneiropolos,

It's cool. I didn't think you were really directing the comment at me anyway. It just made me realize that I could do a lot better than saying a character I dislike was well written and parroting what someone else already said about a quest that's almost universally loved. I almost made this thread myself because while it's not my favorite game, there's way too much negativity on these boards (I'm not innocent here, either). No one made it far enough in the game to complain about Harvester Orsino without finding something they liked. But 90% of the threads here are complaining. General is actually a bit scary.

Modifié par Deztyn, 31 mars 2011 - 08:52 .

[Knightly_BW]

In my opinion Carver has more personality than Bethany. I can totally understand his situation, being only non-mage sibling from an apostate father. Father probably spend most of this time educating Bethany and Hawke and he neglected. In his codex entery also we learn he usually felt like the stupidiest person in the room. He is trying to prove himself as a man, probably thinking Hawke is natural leader of their little group because he is also a mage (I mean their family). On top of that B*tchany doesn't seem so greatfull that her brother survived a massacre at Ostagar and run all that way back to home in time to join. Joining the Templars what Carver is needed (also read he is so sweet while he joins you after becoming a warden but at first that wasn't his choice either), a choice he made for himself. After a life shaped by 3 apostates in family he can finally be free to become who he wants and freedom of doing whatever he wants to do.

Even he becomes a templar I didn't remember a time he show real hostility towards Hawke, he still tries to protect Hawke at his best.

[Mnemnosyne]

Deztyn wrote...

Fools,

I think it's a subjective thing. I have this idea that family is about hating each other, arguing all the time and still sticking by each other in end more than just being nice, supportive and agreeing with each other.

Gamlen has you settle some debts for him. Yes, but how else is he going to get you into the city? He asks Leandra to contribute rent or grocery money? The Hawkes whine and I say: What!? You were mooching off him the entire time!? Oh, he took the inheritance? Leandra, you ran off a quarter of a century ago and had absolutely no intention of ever coming back. If there hadn't been a Blight was he supposed to keep everything for you until you died of old age in Lothering? (Legally, yes. Still.) And it's sad and pathetic that their parents seemed to dismiss him so completely even while he was taking care of them. Gamlen's not perfect, but I understand him.

I did really like Gamlen's character.  At first I hated him, but when I got the chance again I visited and talked with him and so on, because I felt it fit Hawke - especially since in that playthrough Bethany and Carver and Leandra were all dead by then, so he was the only family she had left.  I really loved discovering his daughter, and I think I may yet have missed some stuff about him.

However, I think his parents did do the right thing in leaving everything to Leandra.  Clearly his father saw that he wasn't really capable of managing the family assets on his own (which it turns out he wasn't) and left it to Leandra instead.  And Leandra was certainly not the type of person to be mean to Gamlen - she would have given him a generous amount of money and made sure he was well taken care of.  It might seem like they were being mean for leaving everything to her after he took care of them, but they clearly knew their children well enough to realize that Gamlen wouldn't be able to take care of himself if left with that kind of money.

[Oneiropolos]

Asperius wrote...

In my opinion Carver has more personality than Bethany. I can totally understand his situation, being only non-mage sibling from an apostate father. Father probably spend most of this time educating Bethany and Hawke and he neglected. In his codex entery also we learn he usually felt like the stupidiest person in the room. He is trying to prove himself as a man, probably thinking Hawke is natural leader of their little group because he is also a mage (I mean their family). On top of that B*tchany doesn't seem so greatfull that her brother survived a massacre at Ostagar and run all that way back to home in time to join. Joining the Templars what Carver is needed (also read he is so sweet while he joins you after becoming a warden but at first that wasn't his choice either), a choice he made for himself. After a life shaped by 3 apostates in family he can finally be free to become who he wants and freedom of doing whatever he wants to do.

Even he becomes a templar I didn't remember a time he show real hostility towards Hawke, he still tries to protect Hawke at his best.

Can I ask if you started as a mage or a rogue/warrior? I'm curious if which sibling you meet first effects your perception of the siblings. I played a rogue my first time through and a mage my second. I felt both siblings were consistently written, but I felt way closer to Bethany (it's not just because I share a name with her in real life, really!) and I never felt like I had that same closeness with Carver. But I'm ALSO wondering if that has to do with the fact that Bethany was literally the only alternative healer to Anders, and when I didn't want Anders along, I took Bethany, and when I killed Anders the first playthrough, Bethany returned to heal my group as a gray Warden. I'm curious if it just meant I naturally spent more time with her and so I felt more comfortable around her. Carver wasn't as integral gameplay wise, being as I had Fenris able to non-shield tank if I needed him in that role, and Aveline was there as a tank option as well, so my group composition rarely allowed for Carver in it. I have a feeling this meant I missed alot of the banter that is making him so beloved amongst people. Ah, I'm rambling. Sorry!  

It's just for me, Carver came off as this little brother who never felt he could live up, and as a younger sibling in real life myself I TOTALLY Get that, but he seemed so jerkish about it. I felt like Bethany had some jerkish moments about the Gray Warden thing but she apologized for them to me. And I DID like the addition of Carver stepping in with Cullen to block Meredith from me. I thought that was a VERY cute little brother thing to do. But I never felt "Awww, he's my little brother" and since I also have a younger brother who I'm super protective of, I know none of those emotional responses triggered with Carver. So is Carver just an acquired taste for some, or is it a "He's who I met first" or did I really screw up in not having him in my party more? I'm contemplating another mage playthrough after this one so if I'm missing a hidden gem in Carver, I'll make sure to have him in my group more often. 

[The Baconer]

Foolsfolly wrote...
Another thing the writers got right.

Shepherding Wolves. The whole quest. The introduction to Petrice was great, the non-dialogue for the Saarebas was great, and the final moments of the quest are great. The Qunari are some of the best things to come out of DA2 and this quest really helped explain more about their culture. The Saarebas character, both before he spoke and after, were amazing.

Not really. It had the potential to be great but it was ruined by plot railroading. The whole "But you must fight the Qunari" situation feels exactly like a mage-supporter fighting Orsino at the end; our choices and RPing are in the end completely disregarded to make room for more fighting, as if DA2 had some kind of shortage of hostile encounters.

Also, we're not allowed to kill Petrice. This fact alone makes the quest garbage, IMO. In both DA:O and DA2 we're allowed to murder people just for the sake of being ridiculous (Lothering merchant, brother Genetivi, Javaris, Ostagar deserter, Dwyn etc.) but when we try to do it in a situation that actually makes sense she... Politefully declines? What the f**k? Apparently we need someone's permission to shank them now? None of the criminals that hounded me on the street asked nicely.

[Dasha Dreyson]

Oneiropolos wrote...

Flemmeth! I actually didn't care about her in DA:O and completely bought into the "She's evil, she must die". I'm not sure I'm actually convinced she's not evil and she shouldn't die, but I felt like her sense of humor was much better conveyed in DAII. I found myself amused by her and thought several of the things she said were quite wise, even if you aren't sure whether you should take her seriously or not. Well done!

^ This. I loved joking around with Flemmeth. My Hawke wouldn't see her the same way my warden would and it worked out beautifully.

Merrill and Varric's friendship was excellent.

I really liked Carver. I think he secretly wished to be a dwarf.

[Darth Obvious]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again...

The writers got ONE thing right when it comes to Dragon Age 2: the title.

[Satyricon331]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I thought Anders was one of the more interesting characters in DA2. Dealing with the injustice of his people and the Spirit of Justice in his head. I really enjoyed the character of Merrill, too, and seeing how she was growing accustomed to a completely foreign land and building a relationship with her as a fellow apostate.

This.

I also found Aveline a nice surprise.  When I had first read about her character, she didn't interest me in the slightest, but she unfolded well and the way her romance evolved was really cute, and made sense for her character.  Much to my surprise, her constancy turned out to be a positive feature, since it really fit who she was.

[PsychoBlonde]

Foolsfolly wrote...
Shepherding Wolves. The whole quest. The introduction to Petrice was great, the non-dialogue for the Saarebas was great, and the final moments of the quest are great. The Qunari are some of the best things to come out of DA2 and this quest really helped explain more about their culture. The Saarebas character, both before he spoke and after, were amazing.

Who thought BioWare could make you care for a non-talking character? It was great. I wish he hung around for longer.

Of course, I'll also throw in the Arishok for best written. The Qunari culture is interesting and flawed. It's like they live in a utopia but the cost of living in that utopia is fascism.

I agree that this was a really awesome moment--Hawke's dialog during most of it displeased me, though.  Even if you pick the nice options, you come across as this ignorant twit who has no understanding or real compassion.

Edit:  Except at the very end--the two choices you had about what to say to the Arvaarad actually were pretty well-worded, although Hawke still sounded a bit too dismissive when telling the Arvaraad (argh I hate it when I can't remember which A is the double A) that "what he does now is his business".  I would have preferred more of a "I respect his right to make his own decisions even if I totally disagree with his reasons for those decisions" instead of "I don't give a flying ****", but I could chalk that up to Hawk being pissed off at Arv, which I was too at that point.
 
The day when I get to play a main character in a Bioware game who actually has a good personality and is wise, intelligent, and knowledgeable in their own right instead of just serving as a sounding board for NPC's to grandstand upon, I will be a very happy bunny.

Modifié par PsychoBlonde, 31 mars 2011 - 09:50 .

[Wulfram]

Foolsfolly wrote...

On topic:

I love how much work had to go into the gifts this time around. The gifts have to be something that gives both Friendship and Rival points. That couldn't have been easy to figure out and largely they're great. The only one I found a little weak was the Tevinter Chantry amulet. It works fine for rival points but....Anders didn't strike me as Mr. Chantry in this game.

Anders is established as religious - he's offended by the term apostate because it implies a lack of faith and he quotes the Chant to support his mage freedom arguments on occasion.

[Crext]

Anders was actually my biggest hope of an exellent character.

All his background was original, and I had both Anders and Justice as my fellow and favorite companions in Awakening.

However, the merging of them was nothing inbetween, he was acting like a completly different person, not in a avanger/justice and earlier Anders merge kind of manner, but just simply different.

I was also hoping for more "justice" and less Anders, and he kinda was pushed out of my party as I simply felt he was screwed up and not "real". I mean, ofcourse, if he had been a completly new person, then I would'nt have had a problem with it, but Anders from DA2 had nothing to do with eider Anders or Justice from Awakening.

Just call him "Hodin" or something and make him a completly new character with a totally new justice spirit, and you would give it far more credibility.

[Foolsfolly]

The day when I get to play a main character in a Bioware game who actually has a good personality and is wise, intelligent, and knowledgeable in their own right instead of just serving as a sounding board for NPC's to grandstand upon, I will be a very happy bunny.

Play Red Dead Redemption. John Marston has a ton of character. A few times I'd arrive to the location and stop outside of the trigger and listen to Marsten talk to people (Bonnie, his wife, his son, Landon Ricketts, ect.).

You don't get to choose your dialogue options, because it's not an RPG, but that's a main character with a load of character.

[Eudaemonium]

I have to agree with some of the people here about Carver. I think Bioware really did the sibling rvalry excellently here. On my current mage I'm aiming to get him to 'friend', and teh difference in dialogue is really interesting. There's still a lot of rivalry, but there's less tension and you get a real grasp of his loss and desperation. I think one of my favourite moments was when he accused me to letting Bethany die, and I agreed with him. He just stood there with this expression and said "what?". It was really well done.

The whole of Act 2 was simply brilliant, right from its opening to its conclusion. It is certainly the high-point of the game. But to be honest, I really enjoyed Act 1 as well - maybe it was having Carver and Bethany along -, but I just managed to sense the desperation and need of Hawke and his/her family, and I thought a lot of the quests did excellently for setting up the future conflicts in the game. The weakest link is Act 3, which needed to be more the length of Act 2, really, with a slower boil and a less idiotic Harvester Orsino.

I found most of the companions in DA2 to be engaing, ineresting and either lovable or hateable. Anders' descent into madness and Merrill's good-intentioned self-destruction were wonderfully heart-wrenching to behold. The thing that stood out most to me, however, was the way your companions interacted - Aveline and Isabela's growing if begrudging friendship, Isabela and Merrill's sisterly relationship, Varric and Anders growing distant, Fenris playing cards with Donnic. There were so many different instances. The game gave you the impression that they were real people with real lives, who interacted and looked out for one another. It was odd, because the DA2 crew felt like more of a team to me than ME2s ever did. That sense of camaraderie was astounding, and I hope Bioware continues to improve on it in future titles.

But you know what, and its probably rather controversial, but one thing I think DA2 did better than I could have possibly imagined was Hawke herself (I play female Hawke mostly, so I'll use feminine pronouns). For me, Hawke managed to perfectly balance player control with being her own character. Hawke felt alive to me, in a way neither my Shepards nor my many Wardens ever did. She fitted into the story, had her place and her role, but having replayed with different personality choice I saw just how much the way I played her shaped who she was and how she fit into the tale. My first ever run was as an aggressive and direct mage, and my latest is a snarky/witty mage, and even choosing the same plot decisions the character feels completely different, has different relationships and a different take on life, and its really interesting to see. Personally, in future I'd love to see Bioware refine and expand on this style of protagonist.

[Oneiropolos]

Eudaemonium wrote...

But you know what, and its probably rather controversial, but one thing I think DA2 did better than I could have possibly imagined was Hawke herself (I play female Hawke mostly, so I'll use feminine pronouns). For me, Hawke managed to perfectly balance player control with being her own character. Hawke felt alive to me, in a way neither my Shepards nor my many Wardens ever did. She fitted into the story, had her place and her role, but having replayed with different personality choice I saw just how much the way I played her shaped who she was and how she fit into the tale. My first ever run was as an aggressive and direct mage, and my latest is a snarky/witty mage, and even choosing the same plot decisions the character feels completely different, has different relationships and a different take on life, and its really interesting to see. Personally, in future I'd love to see Bioware refine and expand on this style of protagonist.

You know, I'll completely agree with you on that. I was nervous about a voiced protagonist, because even though I played through ME1 and 2, the whole switch from non-voiced to voice in Dragon Age made me worry that the dialog would suffer. And it did, in one sense, in which there was less of it and I got to ask less questions! (Though, honestly, if my complaint is I didn't get to talk -enough- it means they certainly did something right with the companions.) Honestly, I do love Hawke. I think the Warden felt more like MY character, but Hawke feels more like a character I helped shape. If that makes... any sense at all... But I love being surprised by playing a 'different' Hawke style in a different playthrought and feeling as if Hawke, herself, is really interacting. Plus, when Hawke pipes into the banter it always surprises me but makes me laugh. Unlike our Warden who had to just listen to two talk behind her ad ot say anything, Hawke can cut them off.

Actually, do we know who wrote Hawke? Because some things like the person saying meet me when you wipe out al the gangs and Hawke muttering, "Why can't I ever meet any NORMAL people?" seriously had me snickering for the entire run through the area. Witty Hawke honestly IS witty and sarcastic and I adore them.  Instead of bland "I'm the protagonist so my sense of humor isn't as up to par as the "Funny character" or the "Sarcastic character"." Hawke felt like she COULD be the funny character, and held her own against Fenris's sarcasm and Varric's wit. I loved it. 

[Miserysky]

I agree with most of what you've said Oneiropolos. I also think the evolution of the party banter is an often overlooked but great piece of writing. I just actually noticed it on my third playthrough. Normally I didn't bring Anders since I was a mage, but I had him with Varric mostly, and in Act 3, Varric tries to joke with him quite often and Anders gets more and more snippy. I love those little details. One thing I'm not so sure about is Marethari. From Origins, I thought she would always put the needs of the clan above the needs of the individual, but that was not the case with Merrill. I'm not sure I liked that. Overall, Act 2 was fantastic writing. The ability to gain the Arishok's trust was also a great addition and kudos to the writer of that quest chain.

Modifié par Miserysky, 01 avril 2011 - 01:30 .

[Zalocx]

Miserysky wrote...

I agree with most of what you've said Oneiropolos. I also think the evolution of the party banter is an often overlooked but great piece of writing. I just actually noticed it on my third playthrough. Normally I didn't bring Anders since I was a mage, but I had him with Varric mostly, and in Act 3, Varric tries to joke with him quite often and Anders gets more and more snippy. I love those little details. One thing I'm not so sure about is Marethari. From Origins, I thought she would always put the needs of the clan above the needs of the individual, but that was not the case with Merrill. I'm not sure I liked that. Overall, Act 2 was fantastic writing. The ability to gain the Arishok's trust was also a great addition and kudos to the writer of that quest chain.

I still think Marethari IS more "clan above all" like we saw in the Dalish origin, but she loves Merrill like a daughter and every "mother" figure I know would gladly shirk their duty and give up their lives to save the one they love like that

[Deztyn]

Oneiropolos wrote...

Can I ask if you started as a mage or a rogue/warrior? I'm curious if which sibling you meet first effects your perception of the siblings.

Not the person you were asking, but since I also prefer Carver I hope you don't mind me answering.

My first playthrough was as a rogue. My regular party until the Deep roads was Bethany, Anders and Fenris/Aveline so I didn't use her any less than I did Carver. Actually a tiny bit more, my mage is DPS with Anders as a healer/buffer so I sometimes switched him out to include a rogue and Aveline.

 But I never felt "Awww, he's my little brother" and since I also have a younger brother who I'm super protective of, I know none of those emotional responses triggered with Carver. So is Carver just an acquired taste for some, or is it a "He's who I met first" or did I really screw up in not having him in my party more?

Having Carver with me when I recruited Fenris gave me the "Awww, he's my little brother" moment. Fenris is being Fenris and Carver jumps in with "If you have a problem with my sister, you have a problem with me."

Sold!

Favorite digital little brother ever. <3

Especially since my mage was a bit of witch to him.

I just never felt much of a connection with Bethany. She was there. She was supposed to be my sister. She was nice. Whatever. Maybe she gets more interesting if I'm playing a jerk Hawke?

Modifié par Deztyn, 01 avril 2011 - 03:26 .

[Oneiropolos]

Oh, interesting! Clearly I need to make sure I take Carver along when I recruit Fenris next time. That might endear me a bit more to him. Thanks for the tip!