202 réponses à ce sujet

[Maleficent]

True about Cullen in Origins but he seems to have changed since then.

[Talladarr]

We're not grasping. And mages aren't "constantly" turning into demons and abominations. Yes, it happens alot a Kirkwall, but ifyou read the codex entries, you'd see that the veil is VERY thin there. T obe honest, Idon't even se why there's a circle that close to a point where the veil is that th9in. it's just unsafe all around. The Veil in Kirkwall isn't too much stronger than it was at Warden's Peak, and it was practically fallign apart there.

[Parrk]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Talladarr wrote...

Parrk wrote...

Actually, yes. Nearly all templars are the same. Mages are born into all types of political and socio-economic classes and all races, and as said previously, they are people with magical power, not "mages".

Templars are self-nominated. It is a volunteer organization. Certainly there exist "good" templars, but those are most likely templars as a means of escaping poverty and hunger.


To Ian you can't treat them like humans, you must treat them like they're potential demons.
It is safe to assume that, having been around so long, the order draws a particular type of power-hungry mage haters.

If you wanted to protect people, the guard is a better option, or the king's army.

The religious situation in thedas can be described as if the Westboro Baptist church controlled the country with a shadow government and liberal use of unnecessary force. The templars are people who serve one purpose...to solve the homosexuality "problem"....which isn't really a problem.

That is my understanding of the psychology of templars at least. I'm sure others would beg to differ.

I agree.

Oiy i've got a problem with this, Mages commonly turn into demons and kill people. Homosexuals don't do this unless you want to claim this is allegory to aids but then you're just grasping.

The analogy was more about hateful religious organizations than it was about their chosen victims.

Also, in kirkwall especially, people often turn into ....well people, and kill people.  Kirkwall isa cesspool of suffering, hatred and death.  Mages have no monopoly on unjust killings.  What they do have is a heightened potential to become a particular kind of "boogeyman-style" evil.

Dead is dead and evil is evil.  You can't take a 5 minute walk in kirkwall witout stepping in piles of it.  How is mage evil worse than coterie evil?  It isn't.  The difference is that the coterie doesn't have the medieval roman-catholic church persecuting them with all their might, and no one is born coterie.

And slaver evil is (in my particular view) evil-er than even blood magicc evil, yet the chantry cares not one iota what becomes of elves and the poor.

Modifié par Parrk, 31 mars 2011 - 03:58 .

[Talladarr]

Once again, I must sadly agree, for the most part at least. I still attribute all/most of the "mage evil" to the thinness of the veil

[Pileyourbodies]

The difference between mages and people is people can put down their swords. Avaline and Bethany have a debate about this in act 1 banter. People can be just as bad and evil, people are also under the watch of the city guard who can be just as bad and depraved as the templars. The only difference between templars and city guard is the fact that templars are more of a military organisation along with religious elements.

[Tainan7509]

Parrk wrote...

Kirkwall is a filthy place full of disgusting and morally bankrupt people. It amazes me that more people don't seem to think this. There is no real justification for helping the brownshirts torture and kill mages, because when you think about it, there are very few people in kirkwall who wouldn't kill you given the slightest reason.....or a few coins.

I honestly cannot identify this mythical innocent community that templar-lovers think they are somehow protecting by supporting the torture, rape and genetic cleansing of mages who have done nothing wrong.

What imaginary public are you making kirkwall safe for?

There are only a handfull of decent templars, and they are killed as soon as they are identified by the zealots in their ranks.

Blood mages = bad 99% of the time....I get it. Hawke is somehow able to kill scores of blood mages while protecting innocent mages from being raped and tortured. templars are almost universally jaded, yet so few of them have even faced shades, aboms and demons, and would probably mess their pants if they ever did.

Templars are generally not even capable of defeating blood mages because they are weak. It is effectively like creating an agency to cull the growth of mountain lion population, but they are only strong enough to slay the cubs....so they spend all their time tormenting the young of the species.

The templars make the mages turn to evil for a chance at self-preservation.

Imagine if (here in the US),the government revoked the second ammendment and went door to door collecting guns and arresting anyone who did not give them up freely. Would they really have any cause to blame the people for he level of violence that ensued? No

And mages aren't even weapons by nature, but rather people. The only people with reason to fear normal mages are those who would persecute them...the templars.

I agree. 

[Bigdoser]

My inner dalish cried I am glad that I did not send him to the circle knowing people like her is watching mages also I did not know that a templar was raping alian and threatning that he will turn him tanquil if he talks. I am not suprised that there are so many insane mages running around kirkwall considring what templars do behind closed doors. The fact that the mage can't do anything about it is even more annoying I also wonder why people are so shocked and annoyed that there is so many blood mages and abominations running around when mages are getting treated like ****.

[Talladarr]

Bigdoser wrote...

My inner dalish cried I am glad that I did not send him to the circle knowing people like her is watching mages also I did not know that a templar was raping alian and threatning that he will turn him tanquil if he talks. I am not suprised that there are so many insane mages running around kirkwall considring what templars do behind closed doors. The fact that the mage can't do anything about it is even more annoying I also wonder why people are so shocked and annoyed that there is so many blood mages and abominations running around when mages are getting treated like ****.

That's the kind of point I've been trying to make, and why I am wholeheartedly pro-mage.

[LobselVith8]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

The dalish are no better than the templars for example the ones that murder the ex werewolves. different clan but dalish nontheless.

The Dalish woman from Keeper Lanaya's clan wanted revenge on the man who murdered her mother. There's a significant difference between torturing an innocent child and wanting to kill the man who murdered your mother.

[Parrk]

The circle is a prison. What happens in prisons? Those convicted of crimes socialize with others convicted of crimes and they learn....about crime.

If they were not all rounded up and interred then it is reasonable to expect that some mages would rarely meet others and may go their entire lives without ever having cast an offensive spell. They would conjur cocktails as bartenders or study healing at university and be physicians.

Some would still be bad, but there would be far less opportunity for bad mages to learn from and strengthen one another, and they certainly wouldn't be locked in a small prison with nothing to do but.....read a poorly-controlled body of magic texts.

The circle solution is a bad one. It creates more problems than it solves. the fact that the chantry has used a single instance from hundred of years ago to rise to the position of world governance while hiding behind their necessity in handling a "mage problem" that they themselves perpetuate and create is the true nexus of thedas' troubles.

[Patriciachr34]

I think there are abuses on both sides of this conflict. What is absent is a way to create a balance. Yes. Mages should have more freedoms and not be treated as criminals just because they are born with magic. Yes. Mages can be dangerous and controls must be put in place to maintain a peaceful, demon free society. However, if Tevinter is an example, mages should not be allowed to police themselves, nor should they be allowed political power. That being said, the Chantry should not be allowed to govern mages or Templars and should also not be allowed political power. It is the Chantry that preaches that magic is sin and this is used to abuse and control mages. By instilling this concept and creating general fear amongst the masses, the Chantry can maintain it's power base.

I propose that Templars should be independent of the Chantry and only allowed to police magic using people. They must maintain neutrality like the Wardens. If they abuse mages, then that Templar becomes criminal and abuse can be dealt with by regional governmental authorities. For this to work you would need a governing document that explicitly outlines the duties and limitations of the Templars.

The problem lies is getting this implemented. The Chantry will not be willing to give up it's power base (control of the Templars and Circles). Also, many governments would be hesitant to enforce a document that would possibly alienate them from the Chantry or get them excommunicated. This is why Thedas needs a revolution. This revolution is a clash between the extremes of both sides. It shows that there is a sever disparity and that this needs to be fixed. It is our Hawke that gets to choose how the revolution evolves.

[Talladarr]

Patriciachr34 wrote...

I think there are abuses on both sides of this conflict. What is absent is a way to create a balance. Yes. Mages should have more freedoms and not be treated as criminals just because they are born with magic. Yes. Mages can be dangerous and controls must be put in place to maintain a peaceful, demon free society. However, if Tevinter is an example, mages should not be allowed to police themselves, nor should they be allowed political power. That being said, the Chantry should not be allowed to govern mages or Templars and should also not be allowed political power. It is the Chantry that preaches that magic is sin and this is used to abuse and control mages. By instilling this concept and creating general fear amongst the masses, the Chantry can maintain it's power base.

I propose that Templars should be independent of the Chantry and only allowed to police magic using people. They must maintain neutrality like the Wardens. If they abuse mages, then that Templar becomes criminal and abuse can be dealt with by regional governmental authorities. For this to work you would need a governing document that explicitly outlines the duties and limitations of the Templars.

The problem lies is getting this implemented. The Chantry will not be willing to give up it's power base (control of the Templars and Circles). Also, many governments would be hesitant to enforce a document that would possibly alienate them from the Chantry or get them excommunicated. This is why Thedas needs a revolution. This revolution is a clash between the extremes of both sides. It shows that there is a sever disparity and that this needs to be fixed. It is our Hawke that gets to choose how the revolution evolves.

And finally someone understand why I love DA2. It is the beginning of the upheaval of the system I've hated since DA:O

[Talladarr]

I suppose that's true, btu the Mages are just tryign to use their power to get to the point where they're treated like everyone else

[Parrk]

PurebredCorn wrote...

I think the overall theme to this game is most people who have power will inevitably abuse it. This can be applied to both templar and mage alike.

I agree.

If I were a sooper-powerful wielder of magical arts,  I would compel the women in cafe's to remove their shoeses.

mwahahahaha!

toeses for Parrk to admire!
I  am truly the master of this espresso domain!!

[Talladarr]

O.o? If I had magic I'd hide it for the most part. If people knew about it they'd just drug me and I'd become some kind of labrat =/

[Parrk]

If I had a magical labrat I would release him/her.



There is little chance that they would not skew the statistical research data.

[LobselVith8]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

The difference between mages and people is people can put down their swords. Avaline and Bethany have a debate about this in act 1 banter. People can be just as bad and evil, people are also under the watch of the city guard who can be just as bad and depraved as the templars. The only difference between templars and city guard is the fact that templars are more of a military organisation along with religious elements.

Mages can choose when to use their magic, so I don't agree with Aveline's comparison, and mages aren't the only ones who can be possessed. I'd say that the difference between the city guard and the templars is that the templars don't seem to answer to anyone but their own. We see the effects living under the Order of Templars in the Kirkwall Circle when we encounter Huon, who was a elf from the Alienage and became mentally disturbed after he was thrown into the Gallows Prison and spent a few years under templar control, or Evelina, who was a member of the Ferelden Circle for most of her life and, after being thrown into the Gallows Prison for a few years, lost her mind.

[Talladarr]

Again, the Veil is INSANELY thin almost ON TOP of the Gallows. If that's not the root cause, it DOES contribute

[Vuokseniska]

Talladarr wrote...

Again, the Veil is INSANELY thin almost ON TOP of the Gallows. If that's not the root cause, it DOES contribute

but it was also thin in ferelden

[BigEvil]

Talladarr wrote...

I think you're missing a fact that was portrayed in DA:O with Camen. In order to become an actual Hunter, not a Hunter-apprentice, you have to hunt ON YOUR OWN. YOU have ot take something down, skin it, and bring back a properly made pelt, while also beingign back the animal, because to killl soemthing that bares you no harm and then not eat/use all of it is waste. The Da'len was likely just out on his/her hunt

I remember that. But I also remember that because the area was dangerous, Zathrian banned Cammen and presumably any other apprentices from going out hunting alone. There's no evidence that this Dalish was doing their solo hunt. Why weren't the Dalish preventing the solo hunts since there were so many dangers around Sundermount? The Templars show up in Act 2, when there is a Varterral a stones throw away from the Dalish camp. A bit of common sense could have prevented the situation.

[Talladarr]

BigEvil wrote...

Talladarr wrote...

I think you're missing a fact that was portrayed in DA:O with Camen. In order to become an actual Hunter, not a Hunter-apprentice, you have to hunt ON YOUR OWN. YOU have ot take something down, skin it, and bring back a properly made pelt, while also beingign back the animal, because to killl soemthing that bares you no harm and then not eat/use all of it is waste. The Da'len was likely just out on his/her hunt

I remember that. But I also remember that because the area was dangerous, Zathrian banned Cammen and presumably any other apprentices from going out hunting alone. There's no evidence that this Dalish was doing their solo hunt. Why weren't the Dalish preventing the solo hunts since there were so many dangers around Sundermount? The Templars show up in Act 2, when there is a Varterral a stones throw away from the Dalish camp. A bit of common sense could have prevented the situation.

If you'll remember some conversation with Merrill during that quest, she mentions that the Varterral usually is nice nad lets them retrieve relics of their past, and that somethign had to have provoked it for it to become hostile, and the dangers surrounding Sundermount were UP the mountain, not surrounding it, whish is wher ethe Templars would have captured the Da'len. Marathari had no reaso nto call off the hunts. Bear in mind, Zathrian only called them off becuase of the werewolves

[TobiTobsen]

Vuokseniska wrote...

Talladarr wrote...

Again, the Veil is INSANELY thin almost ON TOP of the Gallows. If that's not the root cause, it DOES contribute

but it was also thin in ferelden

Not around the circle tower and not "Tevinter used Kirkwall as one giant blood altar" thin

[Talladarr]

Vuokseniska wrote...

Talladarr wrote...

Again, the Veil is INSANELY thin almost ON TOP of the Gallows. If that's not the root cause, it DOES contribute

but it was also thin in ferelden

At Warden's Peak sure, and that was because of Avernis summoning all those demons. But that's one spot, a relitively small spot by comparison to an entire city.

[Mahtisonni]

The main reason why there is such animosity against mages is because the chantry is too much of a dick to not open templar training to the public.

Seriously, if you had a guy that can use silence and dispel on every corner then whenever a mage goes insane he doesn't really have anywhere to run even if he did manage to kill the first guy.

This is how it would turn out if you were a blood mage who went insane on the city.
1. Cut yourself
2. Summon some demons
3. 30 guys appear that all use Smite on synchro thus killing all demons on the area.
4. You're chain silenced until you realize that they can keep you silenced for a month.
5. 1 guy shoots you to leg with an arrow.
4. 30 guys will stick sharp objects to you.

Naturally if people outside guard learn templar training as well then they can't really go nuts anywhere because there is always somebody who can dispel area from magical effects and silence you.
How will you know who has templar training if they're not wearing the standard issue armor and being self-rightous pricks.