202 réponses à ce sujet

[Lithuasil]

BigEvil wrote...
A bit of common sense could have prevented the situation.

As is officially proven after Merills last quest, "a bit of common sense" is exactly what the keeper of that clan is lacking :|

[Talladarr]

Ehhh, it's a little more complicated than that

[TheBlackBaron]

TobiTobsen wrote...

The Kirkwall Templars are pricks. The templar in charge of that searchparty seems to be one of Meredith favourites. No surprise that she resorts to... questionable methods. Alrik would be proud of her.

But hey... the Dalish are not really "shemfriendly" either. Fantastic racism for the win!

This. 

It's a bad situation to mix a group that rivals the Eldar for xenophobic self-superiority with a group that houses some lyrium-addled psychopaths. 

[BigEvil]

Talladarr wrote...

BigEvil wrote...

Talladarr wrote...

I think you're missing a fact that was portrayed in DA:O with Camen. In order to become an actual Hunter, not a Hunter-apprentice, you have to hunt ON YOUR OWN. YOU have ot take something down, skin it, and bring back a properly made pelt, while also beingign back the animal, because to killl soemthing that bares you no harm and then not eat/use all of it is waste. The Da'len was likely just out on his/her hunt

I remember that. But I also remember that because the area was dangerous, Zathrian banned Cammen and presumably any other apprentices from going out hunting alone. There's no evidence that this Dalish was doing their solo hunt. Why weren't the Dalish preventing the solo hunts since there were so many dangers around Sundermount? The Templars show up in Act 2, when there is a Varterral a stones throw away from the Dalish camp. A bit of common sense could have prevented the situation.

If you'll remember some conversation with Merrill during that quest, she mentions that the Varterral usually is nice nad lets them retrieve relics of their past, and that somethign had to have provoked it for it to become hostile, and the dangers surrounding Sundermount were UP the mountain, not surrounding it, whish is wher ethe Templars would have captured the Da'len. Marathari had no reaso nto call off the hunts. Bear in mind, Zathrian only called them off becuase of the werewolves

Yes, she does. But so far in the DA games we've encountered two Varterrals, both of which were definately hostile regardless of someone being Dalish. We don't find out what provoked the Varterral. Three hunters have been killed by it when we arrive, and it kills a fourth before we finish the quest. The dangers of Sundermount might have been up the mountain, but they are still not far from the camp. Given Marathari's later actions (whether noble or not), it does seem there is a lack of common sense. Even Master Ilen is telling his apprentices to pack up because they're leaving whether the clan does or not. Admittedly he still sticks around long enough that he can potentially be slaughtered if you fail to appease the Dalish after Merrill's quest to speak with the demon. They do seem to lack much common sense.

[Talladarr]

Keep in mind, most Dalish clans don't stay put for so long. The only reason this clan stayed was because all their halla were slaughtered.

[Liliandra Nadiar]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Pileyourbodies wrote...

The dalish are no better than the templars for example the ones that murder the ex werewolves. different clan but dalish nontheless.

The Dalish woman from Keeper Lanaya's clan wanted revenge on the man who murdered her mother. There's a significant difference between torturing an innocent child and wanting to kill the man who murdered your mother.

Fun Fact: Import a save where Zathrian survives and she's still there, but this time it's a random (paniced and confused) human she's accusing of being a werewolf and hiding behind a human face.

Though this is a case of hating someone who killed someone important to you while under the effects of a 'disease' that was later cured. The templar attacked someone who's 'crime' was living in the same community as the one they wanted. What ever one feels about Templars, she was in the wrong, period.

No, that level of extremism is not typical, but she got high enough to get to knight-lueitenant on those methods/rantionals, so it's partially the fault of the environment that fosters that brand of thinking. Weather it's solely the fault of making a Circle in Kirkwall (Bad idea all around IMO) or the leadership (Meredith didn't seem too stable when we just heard about her in Act 1, before she got the idol) or a mix of both is debatable.

Templars do have a valid purpose, and having a controled location for mages to learn magic while under the supervison of types that can contain magic problems that get out of hand is a good idea, locking them up from the moment they're found until they die is not. Treat someone like a monster/sub-human thing long enough and, surprise surprise, they often become it to strike back.

[DarthKaldriss]

            Dirty filthy elves get what they deserve, coming to our cities and spreading diseases. 

[LobselVith8]

Liliandra Nadiar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish woman from Keeper Lanaya's clan wanted revenge on the man who murdered her mother. There's a significant difference between torturing an innocent child and wanting to kill the man who murdered your mother.

Fun Fact: Import a save where Zathrian survives and she's still there, but this time it's a random (paniced and confused) human she's accusing of being a werewolf and hiding behind a human face.

Though this is a case of hating someone who killed someone important to you while under the effects of a 'disease' that was later cured. The templar attacked someone who's 'crime' was living in the same community as the one they wanted. What ever one feels about Templars, she was in the wrong, period.

But in the two scenerios, we're looking at a young woman threatening a man she believes killed her mother in cold blood, and the other scene is with trained templar soldiers who had tortured a child to gain information and are willing to murder Dalish hunters to prove a point. The person the templars want to abduct is of Dalish descent, so the Dalish have every right to protect Feynriel from the templars, especially given what the Gallows Prison is like.

[Vanaer]

Talladarr wrote...

LegendaryBlade wrote...

Talladarr wrote...

Blood Magic is not in itself inherently evil. Just because you CAN control someone's mind, and summon demons and that's what it's used for for the most part, doesn't mean it is actually evil. Think about it, if Blood Magic was properly controlled, and not used in proximity to where the veil was so thin, they could make Lyrium obsolete.

Blood magic is like a rocket launcher, it may not be inherently evil but people are uncomfortable if you walk down the street with one. Actually, it's far worse than that, because it's a rocket launcher that could go out of the weilder's control at any time if he doesn't know how to control it properly. How many good blood mages have you met throughout the course of the Dragonage series? Merril and Jowan, that's about it.

That said, I went out of my way to support both of those characters and would have liked to see Jowan as a companion.

There's actually a computer mod that allows you to recruit him at Redcliff. But more to the point, that's true. but if the people that DO leanr how to control it should hold a Blood Magic class i nthe circle(if it were to become more like a magic school like it was when it was first established) and teach people how, and how NOT , to use Blood Magic. If people could control it better then ther ewouldn't be a need to make it a forbiden art. The problem is that the damned Chantry has to control everything and treat mages like less-than-human

Blood magic is, by default evil, as it is first of all thought by demons and B mostly consists out of spells that satisfy demands like rage (going emo and stabbing yourself), desire (mind control) and pride (boosting one's self at the cost of sacrificing others).

Therefore Meredith is, in this case, right. I never really get the Meredith hate, she's obviously twisted by the idol, but that doesn't make her at core a bad person.

[Liliandra Nadiar]

Not arguing that. Just pointing out that the Dalish assassin wasn't too mentally stable and was just hunting a human in revenge for her mother's death and thus not quite something to hold as an example. Besides, did you catch the name of her mother? It's the dalish woman from the Lost to the Curse quest, thus the most likely cause of her death was the Warden murder-knife. She's probably after the one she thinks infected her.

[CRISIS1717]

I don't see the mages as any better.There are blood mages and demons in the circle and they've killed a hell of a lot of people. The Templars can atleast establish control which the mages have failed again and again to do.

[Parrk]

Vanaer wrote...

Talladarr wrote...

LegendaryBlade wrote...

Talladarr wrote...

Blood Magic is not in itself inherently evil. Just because you CAN control someone's mind, and summon demons and that's what it's used for for the most part, doesn't mean it is actually evil. Think about it, if Blood Magic was properly controlled, and not used in proximity to where the veil was so thin, they could make Lyrium obsolete.

Blood magic is like a rocket launcher, it may not be inherently evil but people are uncomfortable if you walk down the street with one. Actually, it's far worse than that, because it's a rocket launcher that could go out of the weilder's control at any time if he doesn't know how to control it properly. How many good blood mages have you met throughout the course of the Dragonage series? Merril and Jowan, that's about it.

That said, I went out of my way to support both of those characters and would have liked to see Jowan as a companion.

There's actually a computer mod that allows you to recruit him at Redcliff. But more to the point, that's true. but if the people that DO leanr how to control it should hold a Blood Magic class i nthe circle(if it were to become more like a magic school like it was when it was first established) and teach people how, and how NOT , to use Blood Magic. If people could control it better then ther ewouldn't be a need to make it a forbiden art. The problem is that the damned Chantry has to control everything and treat mages like less-than-human

Blood magic is, by default evil, as it is first of all thought by demons and B mostly consists out of spells that satisfy demands like rage (going emo and stabbing yourself), desire (mind control) and pride (boosting one's self at the cost of sacrificing others).

Therefore Meredith is, in this case, right. I never really get the Meredith hate, she's obviously twisted by the idol, but that doesn't make her at core a bad person.

Blood magic is evil in the same way that a kalishnakov is evil if you dislike Russians, or an M16 if you dislike Americans.

IT is a tool.

Take a popular rl issue:whether you feel medical termination of gestation is right or wrong has no effect on the nature of forceps.  they are always just steel forged to a particualr shape.

Tools lack teh ability to be inherantly good or evil.





Establishing control is the place of government, not zealot militias.

Modifié par Parrk, 31 mars 2011 - 06:21 .

[LobselVith8]

Vanaer wrote...

Blood magic is, by default evil, as it is first of all thought by demons and B mostly consists out of spells that satisfy demands like rage (going emo and stabbing yourself), desire (mind control) and pride (boosting one's self at the cost of sacrificing others).

Grey Warden mages have used blood magic to win against the darkspawn. The Joining is blood magic (involving Archdemon blood, darkspawn blood, and magic). Finn's ritual to find the Eluvian in Witch Hunt is something that can be considered blood magic (which is why he asks the Warden to keep it a secret). I don't think blood magic is evil. Merrill was a blood mage, and I thought she was a complex and interesting character who certainly wasn't evil.

Vanaer wrote...

Therefore Meredith is, in this case, right. I never really get the Meredith hate, she's obviously twisted by the idol, but that doesn't make her at core a bad person.

It doesn't make her right to assume all mages are blood mages. We meet a relatively small percentage of the mages in Kirkwall, out of possibly hundreds or thousands. And condemning the entire population of mages in Kirkwall to execution - every mage and every apprentice - doesn't help matters.

[TobiTobsen]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vanaer wrote...

Blood magic is, by default evil, as it is first of all thought by demons and B mostly consists out of spells that satisfy demands like rage (going emo and stabbing yourself), desire (mind control) and pride (boosting one's self at the cost of sacrificing others).

Grey Warden mages have used blood magic to win against the darkspawn. The Joining is blood magic (involving Archdemon blood, darkspawn blood, and magic). Finn's ritual to find the Eluvian in Witch Hunt is something that can be considered blood magic (which is why he asks the Warden to keep it a secret). I don't think blood magic is evil. Merrill was a blood mage, and I thought she was a complex and interesting character who certainly wasn't evil.

I'm still confused why "every" mage in the Kirkwall circle is able to cast blood magic. Wasn't it established as canon in DAO that you can only learn blood magic from a demon?

[Bigdoser]

TobiTobsen wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vanaer wrote...

Blood magic is, by default evil, as it is first of all thought by demons and B mostly consists out of spells that satisfy demands like rage (going emo and stabbing yourself), desire (mind control) and pride (boosting one's self at the cost of sacrificing others).

Grey Warden mages have used blood magic to win against the darkspawn. The Joining is blood magic (involving Archdemon blood, darkspawn blood, and magic). Finn's ritual to find the Eluvian in Witch Hunt is something that can be considered blood magic (which is why he asks the Warden to keep it a secret). I don't think blood magic is evil. Merrill was a blood mage, and I thought she was a complex and interesting character who certainly wasn't evil.

I'm still confused why "every" mage in the Kirkwall circle is able to cast blood magic. Wasn't it established as canon in DAO that you can only learn blood magic from a demon?

Nope you can learn blood magic from books thats how jowan learned it.

[noxsachi]

While I typically choose the option wherein I vow to watch over that idiot Merrill and ensure her blood magic doesn't harm any others...I approve of any opportunity to kill Dalish. The line Hawke gives about forgetting her pointy ears and self righteousness is priceless and by far the best one liner in the game.

[Liliandra Nadiar]

As much as I love DA2, it's blood magic/abomination implementation annoys the heck out of me and seems to counter lore established in DAO (at least, can't say about the books).
Kirkwall Mage: Oh darn, I got a papercut. Oh! I can use blood magic now!
'

[Talladarr]

Vanaer wrote...

Talladarr wrote...

LegendaryBlade wrote...

Talladarr wrote...

Blood Magic is not in itself inherently evil. Just because you CAN control someone's mind, and summon demons and that's what it's used for for the most part, doesn't mean it is actually evil. Think about it, if Blood Magic was properly controlled, and not used in proximity to where the veil was so thin, they could make Lyrium obsolete.

Blood magic is like a rocket launcher, it may not be inherently evil but people are uncomfortable if you walk down the street with one. Actually, it's far worse than that, because it's a rocket launcher that could go out of the weilder's control at any time if he doesn't know how to control it properly. How many good blood mages have you met throughout the course of the Dragonage series? Merril and Jowan, that's about it.

That said, I went out of my way to support both of those characters and would have liked to see Jowan as a companion.

There's actually a computer mod that allows you to recruit him at Redcliff. But more to the point, that's true. but if the people that DO leanr how to control it should hold a Blood Magic class i nthe circle(if it were to become more like a magic school like it was when it was first established) and teach people how, and how NOT , to use Blood Magic. If people could control it better then ther ewouldn't be a need to make it a forbiden art. The problem is that the damned Chantry has to control everything and treat mages like less-than-human

Blood magic is, by default evil, as it is first of all thought by demons and B mostly consists out of spells that satisfy demands like rage (going emo and stabbing yourself), desire (mind control) and pride (boosting one's self at the cost of sacrificing others).

Therefore Meredith is, in this case, right. I never really get the Meredith hate, she's obviously twisted by the idol, but that doesn't make her at core a bad person.

And these socalled "Demons" only even exist if you're an andrastean! Which is a forced religion from how they make it seem, having Exalted Marches against the Dales simply because the elves wouldn't let a chantry be built! Or insite riots to slaughter the Qunari while they have made no violent action against you other than EXISTING!  To the Dalish, they're all spirits. Each kind of spirit embodies one aspect to a form of extremism. This is proven i nthe Harrowing in DA:O Where a Spirit of Valor was perfectly willing to kill the To-be warden simply in the name of honor(another word for valor at times)! Yo ucould just as easilly learn Blood Magic from a Spirit of Justice as you could a "Demon" of Desire.

And your example is skewed. "Going emo ans stapping yourself" is not rage, it's how yo ufule the damned magic. It's called "Blood" magic for a reason, as it uses the life energy in blood as raw mana. Never once in the game is it ever specified that it needs to be HUMAN blood, it's simply the most accesable in those types of situations. After all, killing a wolf or a bear, then using its blood to fule the spells isn't exactly practical when you need to cast a spell NOW. And just because something that IS doable with blood magic and is consitered evil doesn't make Blood Magic evil. Murder is "evil" but that can be done just as easilly with Fire magic, Spirit magic or Ice magic, and it's just as easy to use a freakin knife.

And as far as the "boosting oneself at the cost of others" is again variable, and only aplies if you use HUMAN blood. And even then, with large quantities of lyrium the same thing can be achieved! The life in blood seems to simply be more powerful than lyrium, but  Idont' see how that inherintly makes it "evil".

[Buckarama]

Vuokseniska wrote...

Law and order is needed... All mages revert to bloodmagic. Prime example: Orsino... specially when you side with the mages

If we all thought that way we'd be stuck in caves eating maggots raw because fire is too scary and dangerous!

Seriously I'm not against the templars or anything, I believe their job and task to be just, but man this city's Templars are just mean! It's like there was an evil magic idol involved or something! 

[PPR223]

Talladarr wrote...

And these socalled "Demons" only even exist if you're an andrastean! Which is a forced religion from how they make it seem, having Exalted Marches against the Dales simply because the elves wouldn't let a chantry be built! Or insite riots to slaughter the Qunari while they have made no violent action against you other than EXISTING!  To the Dalish, they're all spirits. Each kind of spirit embodies one aspect to a form of extremism. This is proven i nthe Harrowing in DA:O Where a Spirit of Valor was perfectly willing to kill the To-be warden simply in the name of honor(another word for valor at times)! Yo ucould just as easilly learn Blood Magic from a Spirit of Justice as you could a "Demon" of Desire.

And your example is skewed. "Going emo ans stapping yourself" is not rage, it's how yo ufule the damned magic. It's called "Blood" magic for a reason, as it uses the life energy in blood as raw mana. Never once in the game is it ever specified that it needs to be HUMAN blood, it's simply the most accesable in those types of situations. After all, killing a wolf or a bear, then using its blood to fule the spells isn't exactly practical when you need to cast a spell NOW. And just because something that IS doable with blood magic and is consitered evil doesn't make Blood Magic evil. Murder is "evil" but that can be done just as easilly with Fire magic, Spirit magic or Ice magic, and it's just as easy to use a freakin knife.

And as far as the "boosting oneself at the cost of others" is again variable, and only aplies if you use HUMAN blood. And even then, with large quantities of lyrium the same thing can be achieved! The life in blood seems to simply be more powerful than lyrium, but  Idont' see how that inherintly makes it "evil".

Thats not entirely true, as even Justice calls them demons.

The spirit of valour would only kill you if you challenged it, when you asked for a weapon, so you can refuse and he will let you live. Also I don't think the spirits would bother teaching you blood magic, even if they could, because they don't seem care at all about the mortals.

Spirits are nowhere near as bad as demons though.

Modifié par PPR223, 31 mars 2011 - 07:55 .

[Liliandra Nadiar]

'Spirits' aren't overly interested in us odd flesh-bound mortals, that's why we call them spirits. Demons are interested, and never (that we've seen) in a way beneficial to continued life. Trick is, that just because spirits aren't interested in us, doesn't mean they're on our side.

[HTTP 404]

Talladarr wrote...

Again, the Veil is INSANELY thin almost ON TOP of the Gallows. If that's not the root cause, it DOES contribute

I get really annoyed when the mages would "resort to blood magic" and summon demons as an excuse.  I would rather die than resort to that, if I was a good mage.  resorting to blood magic is a choice no matter the temptation and that only gives the Templars more justification and further hurts the cause.

btw I was agreeing that it would contribute and disagreeing that it doesn't make the decisions of mages. Talladarr.

[Lithuasil]

Its a question of the situation really - If I was cornered by templars, and wouldn't see a chance of surviving with my power alone - I'd start cutting myself, simple as that.
Remember kids - you're never alone as a mage. Thousands of friends you haven't met, just aching to help you, are but a papercut away

[The Baconer]

CRISIS1717 wrote...

I don't see the mages as any better.There are blood mages and demons in the circle and they've killed a hell of a lot of people. The Templars can atleast establish control which the mages have failed again and again to do.

Yep, that's why Blood Mages and their thrall are running about the streets of Hightown, Templars are just that good at what they do.

[Talladarr]

PPR223 wrote...
Thats not entirely true, as even Justice calls them demons.

Well, if the insane abomination that blows up the chantry and kills the grand cleric says so it simply MUST be true....
Once fused with Anders they became one, Anders' veiws on the fade spirits and "demons" merge with Justice's.

PPR223 wrote...
The spirit of valour would only kill you if you challenged it, when you asked for a weapon, so you can refuse and he will let you live. Also I don't think the spirits would bother teaching you blood magic, even if they could, because they don't seem care at all about the mortals.

Yeah. you can refuse the duel, but it won't let yo uactually finish the Harrowing until you dea with both the spirits of Sloth and Valor, so i nthe end you DON'T really have a choice.

PPR223 wrote...
Spirits are nowhere near as bad as demons though.

I beg to differ, even a Spirit of Justice, BEFORE he and Anders were one, back in Awakening, Justice suggested attack the Templars, or even KILLING the Templars to liberate other mages and bring them justice. Any Fade Spirit, weather it's a "demon" or not, are insanely dangerous. ANY one aspect to the exclusion of all others IS dangerous, weather you're chantry calls them demons or not.