202 réponses à ce sujet

[Rock Mu]

TobiTobsen wrote...

The Kirkwall Templars are pricks. The templar in charge of that searchparty seems to be one of Meredith favourites. No surprise that she resorts to... questionable methods. Alrik would be proud of her.

But hey... the Dalish are not really "shemfriendly" either. Fantastic racism for the win!

Asperius wrote...

Are Dalish pricks? Pretty much yes, they tend to thank you for rescuing them from their abomination/pride demon ex-keeper by trying to attack you and get yourselves killed in return.

Templars really need to start hunting Dalish keepers, Zathrian and Mareathari are both insane apostates dangerous to both humans and their own clans. At least there are two less clans for them to worry about.

Pileyourbodies wrote...

The dalish are no better than the templars for example the ones that murder the ex werewolves. different clan but dalish nontheless.

Yep, damn unreasonable Dalish.... It's not like the chantry once ordered legions of Templars to march on their city, burn it to the ground, and kill anyone who wouldn't convert. They have no right to be so untrusting & hostile towards humans!! I mean who do they think they are?!? It's not like their ancestors comprised a nice chunk of the chantry's revered prophetess Andraste's armies when she fought against the Imperium! And it's not like the chantry struck all mention of the elves role in said war from the chant right?

I mean really! Who do those damn elves think they are?!?

[TobiTobsen]

What do the dalish care about the chant? And if you ask the chantry the elves attacked the missionaries first. We don't know what is true, because both sides are telling the story in a way that fits them best.

But killing people about something that happend 1000 years ago and running aroud and tell everybody how much better you are, compared to them, isn't going to make people like you.

[Talladarr]

TobiTobsen wrote...

What do the dalish care about the chant? And if you ask the chantry the elves attacked the missionaries first. We don't know what is true, because both sides are telling the story in a way that fits them best.

But killing people about something that happend 1000 years ago and running aroud and tell everybody how much better you are, compared to them, isn't going to make people like you.

According to the lore and codex entries in DA:O, after the elves helped Andraste push back the Imperium, she gave them the Dales to use as they wished. After about 100 years after her death however, whe nthe chantry sent missionaries to the Dales, they were turned away and told that no chanrty would be allowed with in the Dales. Lesws than one year later the Chantry declared a Holy Exalted March against the Dalish, destroyign their entire civilization, the Dalish only surviving in small clans that now travle constantly to prevent the slaughter of the Dales again.

[KodiakAsh]

MICHELLE7 wrote...
Oppress a people long enough and they will resort to desperate measure to gain their freedom...it's called a revolution. None of it would have happened if the Kirkwall Templars hadn't been so restrictive and abusive on the Circle of Magi. And as for blood magic being wrong...that is according to the chantry's interpretation of their own scriptures (read the codex)...it certainly didn't come directly from the Maker (their own religion says he turned his back on them so he hasn't communicated with anyone that blood magic is wrong...he isn't even talking to them). I think the fear about it is based on people's misconceptions about it...you certainly don't have to resort to blood magic to become an abomination...Anders and the templars who became possessed are proof of that.

Blood Magic basically comes down to this, blood is a source of power.  It's an alternative to Lyrium.  Most things can be done without Blood Magic but the huge amount of Lyirum required makes Blood a much easier acquired resource.

Once you know how to use Blood, you can control that power.  Every
individual has blood, so you have control over other individuals.  This is where the fear is born from, stripping away others free will to do your bidding (IE: Mind Control)

[Talladarr]

Yes, the power-hungry mages will resort to the mind control aspects, but thin kabout it, it NEVER ONCE said anything about it having the be HUMAN blood.Animal sacrifices are just as plausible for the blood magic fuel.

[TobiTobsen]

Talladarr wrote...

According to the lore and codex entries in DA:O, after the elves helped Andraste push back the Imperium, she gave them the Dales to use as they wished. After about 100 years after her death however, whe nthe chantry sent missionaries to the Dales, they were turned away and told that no chanrty would be allowed with in the Dales. Lesws than one year later the Chantry declared a Holy Exalted March against the Dalish, destroyign their entire civilization, the Dalish only surviving in small clans that now travle constantly to prevent the slaughter of the Dales again.

We have two different stories about the start of the war.

Dalish:

But it was not to last. The Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those were thrown out, templars.

Chantry:

They became increasingly isolationist, posting Emerald Knights who guarded their borders with jealousy, rebuking all efforts at trade or civilized discourse. Dark rumors spread in the lands that bordered the Dales, whispers of humans captured and sacrificed to elven gods.

And then came an attack by the elves on the defenseless village of Red Crossing. The Chantry replied with the Exalted March of the Dales, and the era of the elven kingdom came to an end.

Historians tend to say that the elves just watched when the orlesian city Montsimmard was destroyed by darkspawn and that Orlais declared war on the Dales for that. When the Elves were winning the Exalted March was declared and the Dales destroyed.

So both sides are not entirely innocent. The humans just won and the winner writes the history.

[Talladarr]

I suppose. P'tagh... I will always be pro-Elf and pro-mage.

[genocidal villain]

Does anyone remember how to get this event to happen? I remember it happened in my first play-through, but I forgot.

[TobiTobsen]

genocidal villain wrote...

Does anyone remember how to get this event to happen? I remember it happened in my first play-through, but I forgot.

Let Feynriel go to the Dalish and go to the camp before you start the quest from his mother in act 2.

[Rock Mu]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Historians tend to say that the elves just watched when the orlesian city Montsimmard was destroyed by darkspawn and that Orlais declared war on the Dales for that. When the Elves were winning the Exalted March was declared and the Dales destroyed.

This is the only reasonable explaination posted. Look at the Dalish version, there is no real detail. Look at the Chantry version and it sounds like typical religious propaganda & propaganda of any kind is always at least 50% bs, if not more.

At the end of the day though, you are arguing that the elves were wrong for wanting nothing to do with humans any longer. Were they? Wasn't it their choice not to associate with humans? A human kingdom declared war on them because they didn't rush out to save a village that had nothing to do with them? Shouldn't Orlais have defended their own territories from the spawn?

You really have to look at the situation from a realistic point of view. The elves were building a strong kingdom of their own, unlike the majority of the kingdoms in this chunk of Thedas, the chantry had no power over it whatsoever. If you look at the chantry realisticly it's not just some holy force for good, it's a political instalation. It rules a large chunk of Thedas. They already have the Qunari & Tevinter to contend with, why would they allow the elves to create yet another kingdom that could decide to oppose them directly or even worse in their eyes withdraw completely and never accept their version of god (which according to their religion means the darkspawn will continue cause blights or whatever). It's fairly obvious to me that even if the war with Orlais wouldn't have started, the chantry would have marched on the dales eventually.

The chantry is a theocracy, they want control. The only diffrence between them and the typical ruler is the fact that they claim this control is a divinie mandate from "god". The exalted march on the dales was never about 1 village or the fact that the elves were pushing back the army of Orlais, it was about power. Plain and simple.

Modifié par Rock Mu, 31 mars 2011 - 11:33 .

[Blood-Lord Thanatos]

Bigdoser wrote...

So I am on my second playthrough I decided to go to sundermount at the start of act 2 I see the dalish and templars aruging about the mage with the dreams problems(forgot his name). I asked what was going on and the dalish said they burned and tortured one of the dalish to get information on him. I was like WUT and then I asked the templar you tortured and killed a dalish for that? The templar showed no remorse over it and just went like so what  he is just an elf? My inner dalish unsleahed it self and went BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD all over em( A40k lover will understand that line). Anyway I was planning to side with the templars for the first time but after that I will never side with them EVER. I understand that mages have to be schooled but its not suprising that we have alot of blood mages running about with people like that templar watching them.

Why do I feel THE WARP OVERTAKING ME?! IT IS A GOOD PAIN! Remember the Alpha Legion Breviary: Eternal war demands Eternal Sacrifice.

[Talladarr]

And this is the main reason I LOVE DA2. Hopefully in DA3 yo ucan let the whole ****ign system come crashing down, and the damned Chantry will lose it's grip

[Lithuasil]

But there's so much fun to be had with religious zealots

[Talladarr]

Lol, NOW you're crazy Lithuasil. The Chantry can go to the Abyss(Their version of hell)

[Lithuasil]

I'm speaking purely as an author here, religious zealotry is a great motive for a lot of situations

[Talladarr]

Oh, I understand that, and I won't argue that point. But, I LOATHE the Chantry. LOATHE it. Mostly because it's just the DA-universe version of the roman catholic church of the 500AD+ that more or less halted scientific discovery for nearly 1000 years. It was a stain on our planet's history. Without that damned Dark Ages, we'd have mastered inter-planetary space-flight easily by now. Likely being well on our way to inter-solar space-flight. Religion will always stand i nthe way of great scientific breakthroughs for one reason or another. Genetic engineering is an extremely controversial topic, mostly because we'd be changing "God's perfect creation" when we are FAR from even one iota of perfection.

[Lithuasil]

You'd really, really hate the Firstborn (which are more or less the church' militant wing, in the universe I use for my writing )

As for the catholic church - let's say I respect them, not for their teachings, but for basically being the most efficient power structure established by mankind to this day. Sure, I'm about as religious as a rock, but that's a different matter alltogether.

[TobiTobsen]

Rock Mu wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

Historians tend to say that the elves just watched when the orlesian city Montsimmard was destroyed by darkspawn and that Orlais declared war on the Dales for that. When the Elves were winning the Exalted March was declared and the Dales destroyed.

This is the only reasonable explaination posted. Look at the Dalish version, there is no real detail. Look at the Chantry version and it sounds like typical religious propaganda & propaganda of any kind is always at least 50% bs, if not more.

At the end of the day though, you are arguing that the elves were wrong for wanting nothing to do with humans any longer. Were they? Wasn't it their choice not to associate with humans? A human kingdom declared war on them because they didn't rush out to save a village that had nothing to do with them? Shouldn't Orlais have defended their own territories from the spawn?

You really have to look at the situation from a realistic point of view. The elves were building a strong kingdom of their own, unlike the majority of the kingdoms in this chunk of Thedas, the chantry had no power over it whatsoever. If you look at the chantry realisticly it's not just some holy force for good, it's a political instalation. It rules a large chunk of Thedas. They already have the Qunari & Tevinter to contend with, why would they allow the elves to create yet another kingdom that could decide to oppose them directly or even worse in their eyes withdraw completely and never accept their version of god (which according to their religion means the darkspawn will continue cause blights or whatever). It's fairly obvious to me that even if the war with Orlais wouldn't have started, the chantry would have marched on the dales eventually.

The chantry is a theocracy, they want control. The only diffrence between them and the typical ruler is the fact that they claim this control is a divinie mandate from "god". The exalted march on the dales was never about 1 village or the fact that the elves were pushing back the army of Orlais, it was about power. Plain and simple.

So you're telling me that the Blights are just a human problem? The elves had the possibility to help the city (no small one, since it is the home of the orlesian circle) that was just a short way from the border and decided to just sit there and watch. It's no hard to understand why Orlais was a little bit annoyed.

After the blight there where border skirmishes that escalated into full blown war when the elves attacked Red Crossing and marched on Val Royeaux. I'm not really surprised that a Exalted March was declared since most religions have a problem with people attacking the central city of their faith, just look at Jerusalem.

The "building a kingdom" thing: The chantry let them alone for nearly 300 years. A pretty long time if you don't want someone to build a strong kingdom.
And for the Tevinter schism and the Qunari: These events where 200 and 400 years after the Dales. So the chantry had no reason to fear a conflict against three parties.

I'm not saying that the chantry is awesome and always right. I'm just saying that the elves are not completly innocent and have the tendency to **** at the humans who can't change what their ancestors did.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 31 mars 2011 - 11:56 .

[MICHELLE7]

KodiakAsh wrote...

MICHELLE7 wrote...
Oppress a people long enough and they will resort to desperate measure to gain their freedom...it's called a revolution. None of it would have happened if the Kirkwall Templars hadn't been so restrictive and abusive on the Circle of Magi. And as for blood magic being wrong...that is according to the chantry's interpretation of their own scriptures (read the codex)...it certainly didn't come directly from the Maker (their own religion says he turned his back on them so he hasn't communicated with anyone that blood magic is wrong...he isn't even talking to them). I think the fear about it is based on people's misconceptions about it...you certainly don't have to resort to blood magic to become an abomination...Anders and the templars who became possessed are proof of that.

Blood Magic basically comes down to this, blood is a source of power.  It's an alternative to Lyrium.  Most things can be done without Blood Magic but the huge amount of Lyirum required makes Blood a much easier acquired resource.

Once you know how to use Blood, you can control that power.  Every
individual has blood, so you have control over other individuals.  This is where the fear is born from, stripping away others free will to do your bidding (IE: Mind Control)

Control is control...I don't consider the control that the templars have over mages any less than the control a blood mage could have over humans. Whether it's over the mind or by threat of possible tranquility the result is the same...you get someone else to do your bidding against their will.  Sounds like to me the chantry and the templars became what they feared most. They feared being controlled by the mages and in the end actually became the ones who were the controllers (by another method but the result is the same).

[Talladarr]

But you're missing the point. So what if the Elves had a chance to help the Olessians? And ansestry has EVERYTHING to do with the Elves ignoring the Orlesian city when it was attacked by the spawn. The Humans came into Elven lands, and when the Elves decided they wanted nothign more to do with humans, what did the self-righteous bastard Humans do? they attacked them! For NO REASON!

I'm sorry, but if after al lthat happened, and my people were slaves for thousands of years, and then given a new homeland, thne some HUMAN settlement was being attacked by Darkspawn, I'd ready our borders, but watch and laugh as the city burned. I wouldn't even lift a finger to help them. And then, once again, the self-righteous, entitlement-mentality, BASTARD Humans attack, simply for doign EXACTLY what they woudl have done had the roles been reversed. I'm sorry, but I have a VERY hard time blaming the Elves.

So yeah, the Elves get attack in border skirmishes, but then they get tired of being attacked, so what do yo uget when you're being attacked by a hostile enemy when yo uhave a sizable army? Yo ubeat the SHYT out of the settlements aroudn your orders. The Humans woudl have done no less. And then, the Chantry, the massive political power that it is, sees it has an excuse, and decides that Andraste, their great profit whoe promised the Elves the Dales and their freedom to believe waht they wished, was wrong, and they hit the Dales with the Templar Hammer. Humans are oath-breakers, always have been.

It's one of the things I HATED about DA2, that you HAD to be Human.

[Casuist]

Destroying a nation and indulging in genocidal practices tends to cede moral standing.

Writing history that places that action in a favorable light tends to be factually unreliable.

What the chantry and the general human public tends to say about the elves and the Dalish in particular tends to be utterly false.

...all this is not to say that the Dales were utterly innocent, but rather to say that the Chantry's actions were simply indefensible and the official history far more suspect than most.

[Talladarr]

Casuist wrote...

Destroying a nation and indulging in genocidal practices tends to cede moral standing.

Writing history that places that action in a favorable light tends to be factually unreliable.

What the chantry and the general human public tends to say about the elves and the Dalish in particular tends to be utterly false.

...all this is not to say that the Dales were utterly innocent, but rather to say that the Chantry's actions were simply indefensible and the official history far more suspect than most.

Agreed. I have to say, espesually after DA2, I am always going to be anti-chantry, Pro-mage, and pro-elf for now on.. And if the Chantry survives this, I will tear it down my self it it's at all possible

[scoke2]

When I play my main Hawke character, He generally sides with the Templars when this comes up and he will also side with the Templars in the major conflict, he has no love for mages. He feels that mages are too dangerous to be left to govern themselves.

[blothulfur]

Templars were just having the company barbecue and dalish elf tastes sweeter than three day hung venison, people have got to have some downtime and a bit of a knees up. Stressful job putting up with all that endless mage whining, they say the cryings worse than a newborns.

So have some bloody empathy you heartless monsters.

[SnowHeart1]

Asperius wrote...

What templars did was wrong? In Kirkwall not really...

That basically sums it up. In Kirkwall, take any mage on a given bad day, piddle in their coffee, and they'll go blood mage on you. Unrealistic? Perhaps. Bad writing? Maybe. But... that's Kirkwall, and in Kirkwall all mages can be blood mages... and, given enough time and apply enough pressure, will be blood mages.

Otherwise, I would entirely and absolutely, 100% disagree with Asperius. But... that's Kirkwall.