202 réponses à ce sujet

[SarcasticApple]

What I see is that many fail to realize that the Chantry religion is also a nice fuel source for Ignorance. I'm sure there are mages who don't believe in the Maker but had too go to the Circle anyway. Its kinda hard following rules supposedly made by someone you have no faith in.

[Peer of the Empire]

I was not aware of that OP, and no doubt those templars committed crimes.  But Meredith may have been mind controlled by this time - a mitigating factor the devs introduced, not I.  Avoiding responsibility is all too common in video games

Templars are certainly necessary, when we consider the great evil mages have wrought upon the world.  The whole heaven destroying, blight creating thing.  Not to mention demon summoning and slavery and the serial killers.  Mage criminals are much more devastating by virtue of the power they wield.

Modifié par Peer of the Empire, 01 avril 2011 - 01:26 .

[Liliandra Nadiar]

Peer of the Empire wrote...
Templars are certainly necessary, when we consider the great evil mages have wrought upon the world.  The whole heaven destroying, blight creating thing. 

The catch on that statement is the very first line in DAO.
"The Chantry Tells Us..." The organization formed almost 400 years after the First Blight. Thier knowledge of how/what happened would be.... iffy at best.

[Talladarr]

Liliandra Nadiar wrote...

Peer of the Empire wrote...
Templars are certainly necessary, when we consider the great evil mages have wrought upon the world.  The whole heaven destroying, blight creating thing. 

The catch on that statement is the very first line in DAO.
"The Chantry Tells Us..." The organization formed almost 400 years after the First Blight. Thier knowledge of how/what happened would be.... iffy at best.

I think it's just bull****. I mean honestly, if Tevinter Mages were the "first Darkspawn" then how the hell were the DEEP ROADS the first place overrun? Why not Tevinter? That just doesn't make any sense

[White_Buffalo94]

Bigdoser wrote...

So I am on my second playthrough I decided to go to sundermount at the start of act 2 I see the dalish and templars aruging about the mage with the dreams problems(forgot his name). I asked what was going on and the dalish said they burned and tortured one of the dalish to get information on him. I was like WUT and then I asked the templar you tortured and killed a dalish for that? The templar showed no remorse over it and just went like so what  he is just an elf? My inner dalish unsleahed it self and went BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD all over em( A40k lover will understand that line). Anyway I was planning to side with the templars for the first time but after that I will never side with them EVER. I understand that mages have to be schooled but its not suprising that we have alot of blood mages running about with people like that templar watching them.

First how did you get this? I want to see that so I have another reason for destroying the Kirkwall Templars.
Secondly, The Kirkwall Temps are all pricks. The Ferelden circle had far better tempalrs. Gregoir was kind of an ass, but he didn't deem every mage an abomination. He only went after Jowan when he had proof, which turned out to be good proof

[The Angry One]

Talladarr wrote...

I think it's just bull****. I mean honestly, if Tevinter Mages were the "first Darkspawn" then how the hell were the DEEP ROADS the first place overrun? Why not Tevinter? That just doesn't make any sense

I imagine your typical believer would reason that the Tevinters portalled in to the Golden City, tainted it and themselves and were booted out in the Deep Roads.

[Icy Magebane]

@WhiteBuffalo: You just need to send Feynriel to live with the Dalish during "Wayward Son." In Act 2, go to Sundermount before the Night Terrors quest and the Templars should be there. I'm not sure if you are supposed to read the letter to accept the quest first. I'm pretty sure I didn't and saw the scene.

[Talladarr]

The Angry One wrote...

Talladarr wrote...

I think it's just bull****. I mean honestly, if Tevinter Mages were the "first Darkspawn" then how the hell were the DEEP ROADS the first place overrun? Why not Tevinter? That just doesn't make any sense

I imagine your typical believer would reason that the Tevinters portalled in to the Golden City, tainted it and themselves and were booted out in the Deep Roads.

But how? the Cardinal rules of magic say teleporting is impossible, and their bodies were still in Tevinter

[Liliandra Nadiar]

Fun Fact:After sending Fenyriel to the Dalish, go to the camp and you can see/talk to him, the Keeper will give you a gold piece for it.

[Liliandra Nadiar]

Talladarr wrote...
But how? the Cardinal rules of magic say teleporting is impossible, and their bodies were still in Tevinter

And yet mages (other then you/you party) and Arcane Horrors are teleporting all over the battlefield. >.< 

[Talladarr]

Liliandra Nadiar wrote...

Talladarr wrote...
But how? the Cardinal rules of magic say teleporting is impossible, and their bodies were still in Tevinter

And yet mages (other then you/you party) and Arcane Horrors are teleporting all over the battlefield. >.< 

I think that's more like a... That thing that rogues can do.  Ithink THAT'S waht they're doing... somehow...

[Liliandra Nadiar]

Maybe, still annoys the heck out of me. Why can't I have a 'invisi-stealth' away spell?

[Mariquis]

I swear the devs said something like "we didn't say teleporting wasn't possible, its just that you can't teleport in any way that would get you there faster than on foot."

Does anyone have a link to that comment? I'm pretty sure I'm not misremembering, haha. I took it to mean that you could only teleport very short distances, or that the immediacy of the teleportation was related to how far a person meant to go.

[The Angry One]

Talladarr wrote...

But how? the Cardinal rules of magic say teleporting is impossible, and their bodies were still in Tevinter

In this case I think they actually physically entered the Fade.
There's a book in Gamlen's house that describes how this is possible but required most of the Lyrium in Tevinter and thousands of sacrificed slaves to do it.

Modifié par The Angry One, 01 avril 2011 - 04:32 .

[Rock Mu]

TobiTobsen wrote...
I'm not saying that the chantry is awesome and always right. I'm just saying that the elves are not completly innocent and have the tendency to **** at the humans who can't change what their ancestors did.

When 90% of all humans already view you as less than they are due to racism that their own religion perpetuates, what reason do elves have to be nice? To the majority of humans, elves are just "knife eared" subhumans. Seemed to me that I rarely encountered human npcs (that weren't party members) in either game that didn't look down on elves, and it didn't matter if they were dalish or andrastian city elves. Remember the City Elf origin? The rest of the alienage was too scared to even try and defend those women. That's the reality of elven life in Thedas. You are nothing to most humans & even less than nothing to rich & powerful humans.

Face the facts, humans are the biggest ***holes in the DA universe (though to be fair they are in almost every western fantasy setting lol).  This is a fact that cannot be changed lol. For every angry Dalish npc calling you a shemlen, there are 4 human npcs calling some elf a knife ear.

[Kartikeya]

SnowHeart1 wrote...

Asperius wrote...

What templars did was wrong? In Kirkwall not really...

That basically sums it up. In Kirkwall, take any mage on a given bad day, piddle in their coffee, and they'll go blood mage on you. Unrealistic? Perhaps. Bad writing? Maybe. But... that's Kirkwall, and in Kirkwall all mages can be blood mages... and, given enough time and apply enough pressure, will be blood mages.

Otherwise, I would entirely and absolutely, 100% disagree with Asperius. But... that's Kirkwall.

And therefore, it's okay for the Templars to go out, find some young elf who is not a mage, and torture him to death.

I can't comprehend this attitude. Even if it was true that Kirkwall mages went abomination over things like piddling in their coffee (it's not), how does that justify doing that to someone who is, again, not a mage, and being a younger member of his clan, probably not even remotely involved in any decision to harbor a mage either. It's the same reason people saying that because Orsino turns out to be a douche (in a scene you don't see until after you've made the final faction decision at that), that's grounds for killing every single mage in the entire Free Marches skeeves the hell out of me.

And you know, that kid being an elf, and Dalish to boot, no one but his clan is going to bat an eye over what happened to him. If that group of Templars are perfectly okay doing this sort of thing to someone who isn't even a mage, and isn't even a citizen of their own city, whom they have absolutely no jurisdiction over at all...what do you think they're likely to do to the mages they do have complete and total power over who do not even have a clan to get pissy over what happened to them? I'm not entirely sure why people find it so questionable that all the rumors of mage abuse might be true. We SEE the kinds of abuses Templars are getting up to in Kirkwall. Assuming all of those are just isolated incidents not related to the vast differences in power dynamics and wide open loopholes for abuse inherent in the system is rather naive. Making that excuse and then turning around and saying that oh, but the MAGES all going bad clearly means that all mages will all go bad and are all the same is baffling.

There are enough hints, veiled and unveiled, that even in the Ferelden Circle, things between mages and templars weren't all wine and roses prior to Uldred. And Gregoire is a rather reasonable dude. Imagine the kind of things that can happen when the Knight Commander has absolutely no care or interest in preventing abuse, does not reign her underlings in, and in fact, actively promotes a lot of the abuse herself. When you give any group of people that much unmoderated power over another group of people, terrible things are going to happen.

[Knightly_BW]

Bigdoser wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Vanaer wrote...

Blood magic is, by default evil, as it is first of all thought by demons and B mostly consists out of spells that satisfy demands like rage (going emo and stabbing yourself), desire (mind control) and pride (boosting one's self at the cost of sacrificing others).

Grey Warden mages have used blood magic to win against the darkspawn. The Joining is blood magic (involving Archdemon blood, darkspawn blood, and magic). Finn's ritual to find the Eluvian in Witch Hunt is something that can be considered blood magic (which is why he asks the Warden to keep it a secret). I don't think blood magic is evil. Merrill was a blood mage, and I thought she was a complex and interesting character who certainly wasn't evil.

I'm still confused why "every" mage in the Kirkwall circle is able to cast blood magic. Wasn't it established as canon in DAO that you can only learn blood magic from a demon?

Nope you can learn blood magic from books thats how jowan learned it.

I don't remember an in game reference that you can learn blood magic from books. Jowan is a cheap liar and of course he could say that, just for protecting Uldred. One blood mage can make others learn by a demon double date I suppose. "You wanna be a blood mage? Let me introduce you demon friend of my demon"

At least this is how Merrill started her blood mage adventures.

Also on templars (or first enchanters and parents in some extend) who ain't doing their job well are responsible with peoples like Anders or killer of  Mother Hawke (forgot guys name atm, sorry).

Anders escaped the circle god knows how many times and didn't become a tranquil. Ended up blowing the chantry (pure act of terrorism, he can easily blow up templar grounds as well).

Orsino both encouraged and used blood magic (As Meredith said that kinda rituals don't come up from thin air) and supported/supplied a psycho caused many lives.

Isolde didn't send Connor to the circle and caused many lives (and if you didn't bother to save their hide lives of an entire community).

Tharask who didn't have backbone to send her daughter to circle and be too soft on mages responsible for his daughter's dead and nearly caused you a sibling, your last living family member.

Only mage who is very secure versus demons is Morrigan, I really bow before Felemeth for her training. In fade even Wynne fooled by demons. (Hmm by the way ain't Morrigan calling the demon imitating Flemeth a spirit?)

You can see circle as a prison but it is needed until there will be a better solution. Maybe Flemeth should open a school for gifted youngsters.

On templars/chantry side, Meredith ain't pure evil. Even in her maddened state she feels sorry for innocent mages but believes RoA is only way to cleanse circle. Orsino is the real evil in this game in my eyes.

Think a moment you live in Thedas. Let's say there are two apostates in your community. One of them become an abomination and killed your friends/family/children. Can you sleep sound or feel secure while other one is still in your community? If you can, well good for you. Personally I can't not because I am afraid I will be next victim of that possible abomination, for feeling the burden of responsibility of its future victims. Dying is easy but watching other people die not, terrible if you know you could do something to prevent that. 

[TobiTobsen]

Good morning. Had to take a nap to be fresh for another round of discussing.

Talladarr wrote...

But you're missing the point. So what if the Elves had a chance to help the Olessians? And ansestry has EVERYTHING to do with the Elves ignoring the Orlesian city when it was attacked by the spawn. The Humans came into Elven lands, and when the Elves decided they wanted nothign more to do with humans, what did the self-righteous bastard Humans do? they attacked them! For NO REASON!

If you think that ancestors are important to that, than maybe the elves should have helped them alone for the fact that the ancestors of these human people gave them the land in the first place.

Talladarr wrote...

I'm sorry, but if after al lthat happened, and my people were slaves for thousands of years, and then given a new homeland, thne some HUMAN settlement was being attacked by Darkspawn, I'd ready our borders, but watch and laugh as the city burned. I wouldn't even lift a finger to help them. And then, once again, the self-righteous, entitlement-mentality, BASTARD Humans attack, simply for doign EXACTLY what they woudl have done had the roles been reversed. I'm sorry, but I have a VERY hard time blaming the Elves.

Thats exactly the mentality that ****ed up Ferelden in DAO, isn't it? Helping each other? Why should we?
What do you think who would have been the next target if no Grey Warden had come along and killed the Archdemon? Maybe the elves who where sitting at their borders and doing nothing? And that was no little "one year and it's over without the other countries noticing it" Blight, like in Ferelden, That was a Blight that raged for fifty years. 

Talladarr wrote...

So yeah, the Elves get attack in border skirmishes, but then they get tired of being attacked, so what do yo uget when you're being attacked by a hostile enemy when yo uhave a sizable army? Yo ubeat the SHYT out of the settlements aroudn your orders. The Humans woudl have done no less. And then, the Chantry, the massive political power that it is, sees it has an excuse, and decides that Andraste, their great profit whoe promised the Elves the Dales and their freedom to believe waht they wished, was wrong, and they hit the Dales with the Templar Hammer. Humans are oath-breakers, always have been.

It's one of the things I HATED about DA2, that you HAD to be Human.

There are skirmishes at the borders after the elves watched while the humans died. Probably started by anger from the human side. Then the elves nearly conquer Val Royeaux, Orlais calls for help, the elves get crushed. That's war. Maybe the elves should have helped the humans then they would have had some allies that they could ask for backup. They didn't, attacked the central city of the human faith and became the target of a crusade. Like I said just look at our history. People tend to react poorly when the home of their faith is threatend.

Rock Mu wrote...

When 90% of all humans already view you as less than they are due to racism that their own religion perpetuates, what reason do elves have to be nice? To the majority of humans, elves are just "knife eared" subhumans. Seemed to me that I rarely encountered human npcs (that weren't party members) in either game that didn't look down on elves, and it didn't matter if they were dalish or andrastian city elves. Remember the City Elf origin? The rest of the alienage was too scared to even try and defend those women. That's the reality of elven life in Thedas. You are nothing to most humans & even less than nothing to rich & powerful humans.

Face the facts, humans are the biggest ***holes in the DA universe (though to be fair they are in almost every western fantasy setting lol). This is a fact that cannot be changed lol. For every angry Dalish npc calling you a shemlen, there are 4 human npcs calling some elf a knife ear.

Remember the Dalish Origin? Shooting Shems in the face for running around in the woods?
Like I said in my first post, both sides are not the best rolemodels for tolerance. The humans look down on the elves, the elves look down on the humans and the dalish look even down on their own kind in the cities. Was that originally the chantrys fault? Sure, I'm not denying that.

[Talladarr]

TobiTobsen wrote...

If you think that ancestors are important to that, than maybe the elves should have helped them alone for the fact that the ancestors of these human people gave them the land in the first place.

I'm sorry, say waht now? ANDRASTE gave them the land, and she was Ferelden, born and raised in Denerrim, NOT Orlais.

TobiTobsen wrote...
Thats exactly the mentality that ****ed up Ferelden in DAO, isn't it? Helping each other? Why should we?
What do you think who would have been the next target if no Grey Warden had come along and killed the Archdemon? Maybe the elves who where sitting at their borders and doing nothing? And that was no little "one year and it's over without the other countries noticing it" Blight, like in Ferelden, That was a Blight that raged for fifty years.

I know the first blight was a long one. Butthe Elves only fell because they likely uses mages more than anything else, and being as the Chantry sent Templars in to nullify their magic, they were more helpless than they would have been. Whe nit comes to an army of mages, it's easier to take out Darkspawn than Templars.

TobiTobsen wrote...
There are skirmishes at the borders after the elves watched while the humans died. Probably started by anger from the human side. Then the elves nearly conquer Val Royeaux, Orlais calls for help, the elves get crushed. That's war. Maybe the elves should have helped the humans then they would have had some allies that they could ask for backup. They didn't, attacked the central city of the human faith and became the target of a crusade. Like I said just look at our history. People tend to react poorly when the home of their faith is threatend.

When I look at this situation I think the humans have some ****ing god-complex. "How DARE they not help US! How DARE they act exactly like WE would have! How DARE they retaliate(The gaul! the nerve!) against OUR attacks!" That's all I hear from the humans more or less, and it's all because of that DAMNED Chantry! The damned religion(On top of their already EXTREMELY overinflated egos).

TobiTobsen wrote...
Remember the Dalish Origin? Shooting Shems in the face for running around in the woods?
Like I said in my first post, both sides are not the best rolemodels for tolerance. The humans look down on the elves, the elves look down on the humans and the dalish look even down on their own kind in the cities. Was that originally the chantrys fault? Sure, I'm not denying that.

Last I checked, you STILL get run out of the area if you let them LIVE. The Humans don't give a damned piece of **** about the Elves. Why should they? They're ELVES. It's not like they're scientient or anything.

Modifié par Talladarr, 01 avril 2011 - 12:01 .

[TobiTobsen]

Talladarr wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

If you think that ancestors are important to that, than maybe the elves should have helped them alone for the fact that the ancestors of these human people gave them the land in the first place.

I'm sorry, say waht now? ANDRASTE gave them the land, and she was Ferelden, born and raised in Denerrim, NOT Orlais.

Of course it was Andraste. But the woman was dead for 300 years at that point. So if you want to thank her, why don't you do it with helping the people that are praising her as a saviour and are getting attacked right next to you?

Talladarr wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...
Thats exactly the mentality that ****ed up Ferelden in DAO, isn't it? Helping each other? Why should we?
What do you think who would have been the next target if no Grey Warden had come along and killed the Archdemon? Maybe the elves who where sitting at their borders and doing nothing? And that was no little "one year and it's over without the other countries noticing it" Blight, like in Ferelden, That was a Blight that raged for fifty years.

I know the first blight was a long one. Butthe Elves only fell because they likely uses mages more than anything else, and being as the Chantry sent Templars in to nullify their magic, they were more helpless than they would have been. Whe nit comes to an army of mages, it's easier to take out Darkspawn than Templars.

Sorry, i don't seem to get your point.

Talladarr wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...
There are skirmishes at the borders after the elves watched while the humans died. Probably started by anger from the human side. Then the elves nearly conquer Val Royeaux, Orlais calls for help, the elves get crushed. That's war. Maybe the elves should have helped the humans then they would have had some allies that they could ask for backup. They didn't, attacked the central city of the human faith and became the target of a crusade. Like I said just look at our history. People tend to react poorly when the home of their faith is threatend.

When I look at this situation I think the humans have some ****ing god-complex. "How DARE they not help US! How DARE they act exactly like WE would have! How DARE they retaliate(The gaul! the nerve!) against OUR attacks!" That's all I hear from the humans more or less, and it's all because of that DAMNED Chantry! The damned religion(On top of their already EXTREMELY overinflated egos).

I don't think of it as a god complex. I just think that it's not unreasonable to hope for help from the elves in the case of a blight. Instead the elves just watch how Orlais is ravaged.
But I think your main problem is the fact that the retaliation was lead by the chantry? You don't seem to be very fond of organised religion.

Talladarr wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...
Remember the Dalish Origin? Shooting Shems in the face for running around in the woods?
Like I said in my first post, both sides are not the best rolemodels for tolerance. The humans look down on the elves, the elves look down on the humans and the dalish look even down on their own kind in the cities. Was that originally the chantrys fault? Sure, I'm not denying that.

Last I checked, you STILL get run out of the area if you let them LIVE. The Humans don't give a damned piece of **** about the Elves. Why should they? They're ELVES. It's not like they're scientient or anything.

Yup. Even if you let them live they run back to their village and complain about the elves. Maybe thats the case because they were running for their lives when two elves stepped out of the woods, shoved some weapons in their face while discussing if they should murder them or not. That's not really good PR work for the Dalish.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 01 avril 2011 - 12:23 .

[Talladarr]

Yes, I REALLY hate organized religion. You know why? In our own world, MILIONS haave been lost in the name of one "God" or another. In the AD 500~1500 it was in the name of the Christian God, enacting Holy Crusades SIMPLY because people had decided otr have a different viewpoint, and virtually halting ALL scientific discovery and branding science evil, and the devil's work. And if this so-called God really created humans in his/her own image and "loved" us like they claim they do, WHY would he/she ask people to go to war with another people just because they thin ka little different. Besides that, in today's society you have the Muslims doing their thing. Now I'm not saying I hate all christians/muslims, I'm just talking about the religions themselves. More specifically the Christians to be honest. They claim to welcome all, and accept everyone, but homosexuals are evil, and if you don't believe almost exactly what they believe, you get shunned or attacked philosophically/physically.

I See FAR too many similarities in the Chantry, and I hope it burns. A religion that is intolerant of anything to the point of the extremism you see in the Chantry/ Christianity/Islam/Muslim extremists doesn't deserve to exist, at the very least in my opinion, and I know plenty of people that feel the same way. As a line from a song goes, oh so adequately "Does your God, Know my God? This is how the world will end."

Modifié par Talladarr, 01 avril 2011 - 12:35 .

[Syione]

It's simple, Absolute power corrupts absolutely..

[Kartikeya]

Hey, you know, can we all agree that Andraste isn't actually Jesus, and leave our opinions about real world religions and how everyone who doesn't believe the same way we do is stupid and wrong out of discussions about make-believe dragon land? Please?

It's probably a fair bet that every religious denomination or flavor of agnosticism or athiesm probably has someone who follows it reading these boards. Making big broad derogatory statements about any group of people on a board about a computer game is probably a bad idea.

[RomanDark]

Talladarr wrote...

Blood Magic is not in itself inherently evil. Just because you CAN control someone's mind, and summon demons and that's what it's used for for the most part, doesn't mean it is actually evil. Think about it, if Blood Magic was properly controlled, and not used in proximity to where the veil was so thin, they could make Lyrium obsolete.

And the Chantry/Templars control lyrium trade...see how that works out?

[The Baconer]

Talladarr wrote...

Yes, I REALLY hate organized religion. You know why? In our own world, MILIONS haave been lost in the name of one "God" or another. In the AD 500~1500 it was in the name of the Christian God, enacting Holy Crusades SIMPLY because people had decided otr have a different viewpoint, and virtually halting ALL scientific discovery and branding science evil, and the devil's work. And if this so-called God really created humans in his/her own image and "loved" us like they claim they do, WHY would he/she ask people to go to war with another people just because they thin ka little different. Besides that, in today's society you have the Muslims doing their thing. Now I'm not saying I hate all christians/muslims, I'm just talking about the religions themselves. More specifically the Christians to be honest. They claim to welcome all, and accept everyone, but homosexuals are evil, and if you don't believe almost exactly what they believe, you get shunned or attacked philosophically/physically.

I See FAR too many similarities in the Chantry, and I hope it burns. A religion that is intolerant of anything to the point of the extremism you see in the Chantry/ Christianity/Islam/Muslim extremists doesn't deserve to exist, at the very least in my opinion, and I know plenty of people that feel the same way. As a line from a song goes, oh so adequately "Does your God, Know my God? This is how the world will end."

Why don't we all just caaaaaalm down.