202 réponses à ce sujet

[Talladarr]

I feel I need to apologize. I didn't mean to rant, I'm just a bit emotionally distressed right now, and I overreacted to the situation here. I deeply apologize to everyone who was subjected to my ranting, and I aplogize to any one I may have offended.

[TobiTobsen]

Talladarr wrote...

I feel I need to apologize. I didn't mean to rant, I'm just a bit emotionally distressed right now, and I overreacted to the situation here. I deeply apologize to everyone who was subjected to my ranting, and I aplogize to any one I may have offended.

No offense taken. Just don't do it again or we have to accuse you for being a rage demon and call the local templars

[Talladarr]

Rofl, nice. My girlfriend's mom is just being a **** and said we're never allowed to see eachother again, so I'm just a little high strung is all

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Asperius wrote...

I don't remember an in game reference that you can learn blood magic from books. [/quote]

The Warden can learn blood magic from a book in Amaranthine.

[quote]Asperius wrote...

Jowan is a cheap liar and of course he could say that, just for protecting Uldred. [/quote]

There's nothing to indicate Jowan had any relationship with Uldred.

[quote]Asperius wrote...

One blood mage can make others learn by a demon double date I suppose. "You wanna be a blood mage? Let me introduce you demon friend of my demon"  [/quote]

I'm surprised Hawke didn't learn blood magic from Merrill. No one makes any acknowledgement of Hawke being a blood mage.

[quote]Asperius wrote...

At least this is how Merrill started her blood mage adventures. [/quote]

And Jowan learned it from books, which is why the books on blood magic were removed from the library.

[quote]Asperius wrote...

Also on templars (or first enchanters and parents in some extend) who ain't doing their job well are responsible with peoples like Anders or killer of  Mother Hawke (forgot guys name atm, sorry).  [/quote]

His name was Quentin.

[quote]Asperius wrote...

Anders escaped the circle god knows how many times and didn't become a tranquil. Ended up blowing the chantry (pure act of terrorism, he can easily blow up templar grounds as well). [/quote]

It's illegal to make a Harrowed mage tranquil, and he wanted to free his people from slavery. This is OT, though.

[quote]Asperius wrote...

Orsino both encouraged and used blood magic (As Meredith said that kinda rituals don't come up from thin air) and supported/supplied a psycho caused many lives. [/quote]

No proof to support your theory, since Orsino claims in both versions that he's never used blood magic before.

[quote]Asperius wrote...

Isolde didn't send Connor to the circle and caused many lives (and if you didn't bother to save their hide lives of an entire community). [/quote]

She was a highly pious Andrastian who didn't want her son to be a mage. Probably doesn't help that the Chantry teaches people that mages are "cursed."

[quote]Asperius wrote...

Tharask who didn't have backbone to send her daughter to circle and be too soft on mages responsible for his daughter's dead and nearly caused you a sibling, your last living family member. [/quote]

Considering mages were getting raped, tortured, and illegally made tranquil, I'm not surprised he didn't want her sent to the Gallows.

[quote]Asperius wrote...

Only mage who is very secure versus demons is Morrigan, I really bow before Felemeth for her training. In fade even Wynne fooled by demons. (Hmm by the way ain't Morrigan calling the demon imitating Flemeth a spirit?) [/quote]

Sten also sees through the facade.

[quote]Asperius wrote...

You can see circle as a prison but it is needed until there will be a better solution. Maybe Flemeth should open a school for gifted youngsters. [/quote]

The Magi Origin VO calls it a prison. The Warden from the Ferelden Circle can call it a "prison" and an "oppressive place." Some people in DA2 call it slavery.

[quote]Asperius wrote...

On templars/chantry side, Meredith ain't pure evil. Even in her maddened state she feels sorry for innocent mages but believes RoA is only way to cleanse circle. Orsino is the real evil in this game in my eyes.  [/quote]

Out of the two, Meredith is the one who wants to commit the "Final Solution" on all the mages in Kirkwall.

[quote]Asperius wrote...

Think a moment you live in Thedas. Let's say there are two apostates in your community. One of them become an abomination and killed your friends/family/children. Can you sleep sound or feel secure while other one is still in your community? If you can, well good for you. Personally I can't not because I am afraid I will be next victim of that possible abomination, for feeling the burden of responsibility of its future victims. Dying is easy but watching other people die not, terrible if you know you could do something to prevent that. [/quote]

A templar can also kill someone on suspicion of being a mage (see: The Magnificent D'Sims).

Modifié par LobselVith8, 01 avril 2011 - 04:18 .

[SnowHeart1]

Kartikeya wrote...

SnowHeart1 wrote...

Asperius wrote...

What templars did was wrong? In Kirkwall not really...

That basically sums it up. In Kirkwall, take any mage on a given bad day, piddle in their coffee, and they'll go blood mage on you. Unrealistic? Perhaps. Bad writing? Maybe. But... that's Kirkwall, and in Kirkwall all mages can be blood mages... and, given enough time and apply enough pressure, will be blood mages.

Otherwise, I would entirely and absolutely, 100% disagree with Asperius. But... that's Kirkwall.

And therefore, it's okay for the Templars to go out, find some young elf who is not a mage, and torture him to death.

In Kirkwall, or perhaps it is more accurate to say in Dragon Age II, yes, it is. According to the writers of DA2, every mage who is pushed hard enough turns into a blood mage. Every.single.one. Even if the mage in question has never before performed blood magic, he will immediately become a blood mage if pressed hard enough. You interpret that as a comment on morality. That's not what I mean. For me, it's a comment on the writing and accepting the setting as it is provided. I struggled against it mightily during my first playthrough. Now, I just accept it.

[Dean_the_Young]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Talladarr wrote...

I feel I need to apologize. I didn't mean to rant, I'm just a bit emotionally distressed right now, and I overreacted to the situation here. I deeply apologize to everyone who was subjected to my ranting, and I aplogize to any one I may have offended.

No offense taken. Just don't do it again or we have to accuse you for being a rage demon and call the local templars

He was like, "I hate intolerant people who kill others because they don't respect them!"

And then he was all, "Let them all BURN, so I can laugh!"

I wasn't offended at all. Infact, it was incredibly amusing.

[Talladarr]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

Talladarr wrote...

I feel I need to apologize. I didn't mean to rant, I'm just a bit emotionally distressed right now, and I overreacted to the situation here. I deeply apologize to everyone who was subjected to my ranting, and I aplogize to any one I may have offended.

No offense taken. Just don't do it again or we have to accuse you for being a rage demon and call the local templars

He was like, "I hate intolerant people who kill others because they don't respect them!"

And then he was all, "Let them all BURN, so I can laugh!"

I wasn't offended at all. Infact, it was incredibly amusing.

Rofl. Suffice it to say, I am pro-mage and pro-elf

[Rock Mu]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Remember the Dalish Origin? Shooting Shems in the face for running around in the woods?
Like I said in my first post, both sides are not the best rolemodels for tolerance. The humans look down on the elves, the elves look down on the humans and the dalish look even down on their own kind in the cities. Was that originally the chantrys fault? Sure, I'm not denying that.

I hear ya, I still think what happens in the city elf origin is far worse. I've killed Vaugn on the free Anora quest every time. in every non city elf game I've played because of it lol. I kinda wish they would do a flashback to the days when Tevinter destroyed Elvhenan. I think that would make for a cool game, even a novel talking about what actually happened would be cool. It will never happen, but it would be cool.

Modifié par Rock Mu, 01 avril 2011 - 08:24 .

[Kartikeya]

SnowHeart1 wrote...

Kartikeya wrote...

SnowHeart1 wrote...

Asperius wrote...

What templars did was wrong? In Kirkwall not really...

That basically sums it up. In Kirkwall, take any mage on a given bad day, piddle in their coffee, and they'll go blood mage on you. Unrealistic? Perhaps. Bad writing? Maybe. But... that's Kirkwall, and in Kirkwall all mages can be blood mages... and, given enough time and apply enough pressure, will be blood mages.

Otherwise, I would entirely and absolutely, 100% disagree with Asperius. But... that's Kirkwall.

And therefore, it's okay for the Templars to go out, find some young elf who is not a mage, and torture him to death.

In Kirkwall, or perhaps it is more accurate to say in Dragon Age II, yes, it is. According to the writers of DA2, every mage who is pushed hard enough turns into a blood mage. Every.single.one. Even if the mage in question has never before performed blood magic, he will immediately become a blood mage if pressed hard enough. You interpret that as a comment on morality. That's not what I mean. For me, it's a comment on the writing and accepting the setting as it is provided. I struggled against it mightily during my first playthrough. Now, I just accept it.

I'm still not seeing why every mage becoming a blood mage (which isn't accurate, but I've made this argument enough in the past day that I don't want to repeat it yet again), is an excuse to torture a young elf who is not a mage. He's not a mage. He's not the mage they're looking for. He's not a mage at all. Seeing as they don't catch Feynriel, do we even know if he even had the information they were looking for? They grabbed some guy who might stand a chance at knowing what they want to know, and they end up killing him in agonizing fashion for, well...uh. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time, it seems. Because they couldn't find the person they were actually after.

Even if you could make the argument that torturing mages to death is okay in Kirkwall (and I would argue most people in Kirkwall would go 'um, no it's not' including a lot of templars), I can't see why Kirkwall would be hunky dory with doing it to someone who isn't even a mage, just because you're looking for a mage. They may not care very much because, hey, it's just some Dalish kid, but they probably aren't going to think it's awesome. Because, you know, the implication is the Templars can come do that to you next, if they think you might know something about escaped apostates.

[Talladarr]

I don't understand it either... Every time I see that scene I side with the Dalish and kill those damned Templars

[The Baconer]

Kartikeya wrote...

I'm still not seeing why every mage becoming a blood mage (which isn't accurate, but I've made this argument enough in the past day that I don't want to repeat it yet again), is an excuse to torture a young elf who is not a mage. He's not a mage. He's not the mage they're looking for. He's not a mage at all. Seeing as they don't catch Feynriel, do we even know if he even had the information they were looking for? They grabbed some guy who might stand a chance at knowing what they want to know, and they end up killing him in agonizing fashion for, well...uh. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time, it seems. Because they couldn't find the person they were actually after.

Even if you could make the argument that torturing mages to death is okay in Kirkwall (and I would argue most people in Kirkwall would go 'um, no it's not' including a lot of templars), I can't see why Kirkwall would be hunky dory with doing it to someone who isn't even a mage, just because you're looking for a mage. They may not care very much because, hey, it's just some Dalish kid, but they probably aren't going to think it's awesome. Because, you know, the implication is the Templars can come do that to you next, if they think you might know something about escaped apostates.

Indeed, and I would even say their conduct compromises the entire purpose of their order; protecting the common folk from magic.

[White_Buffalo94]

Icy Magebane wrote...

@WhiteBuffalo: You just need to send Feynriel to live with the Dalish during "Wayward Son." In Act 2, go to Sundermount before the Night Terrors quest and the Templars should be there. I'm not sure if you are supposed to read the letter to accept the quest first. I'm pretty sure I didn't and saw the scene.

that must be it then. I'll go there before I read the letter my next playthrough after another Origins run
EDIT: thank you btw

Modifié par White_Buffalo94, 02 avril 2011 - 05:07 .

[steelfire_dragon]

Vuokseniska wrote...

Law and order is needed... All mages revert to bloodmagic. Prime example: Orsino... specially when you side with the mages

have you noticed, that most mages written to do this, have at one point or another been Circle mages?


in the words of Agent J, In my opinion if you dont go looking for trouble, there wont be any trouble.

the chantry and templars both have gone and done such for ages and at some point, the mages oblidged and became blood mages or p[racticed blood magic in order to leave, escape or whatever the circle.


2 wrongs dont make it write OR justify anything.

[ziloe]

supakillaii wrote...

I agree, Kirkwall templars can be pricks, but not all of them are.

And certainly not all Templars are pricks, for example Alistair

Alistair never became a full Templar. 

[Liliandra Nadiar]

Thrask is another. Keras seems to be on the 'right path'. Cullen, surprisingly, is open to moderation. Templar!Carver, while still a general ******, has priorities for Templar duties/responsibilities set. I'm sure there are more that don't get names/speaking parts, it's just like the mages, it's the Bad Apples that stand out.
Problem is the Bad Apple Templars get promoted because of it, it seems.

[thompsonaf]

Bigdoser wrote...

So I am on my second playthrough I decided to go to sundermount at the start of act 2 I see the dalish and templars aruging about the mage with the dreams problems(forgot his name). I asked what was going on and the dalish said they burned and tortured one of the dalish to get information on him. I was like WUT and then I asked the templar you tortured and killed a dalish for that? The templar showed no remorse over it and just went like so what  he is just an elf? My inner dalish unsleahed it self and went BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD all over em( A40k lover will understand that line). Anyway I was planning to side with the templars for the first time but after that I will never side with them EVER. I understand that mages have to be schooled but its not suprising that we have alot of blood mages running about with people like that templar watching them.

Modifié par thompsonaf, 02 avril 2011 - 07:42 .

[Bigdoser]

thompsonaf wrote...

Bigdoser wrote...

So I am on my second playthrough I decided to go to sundermount at the start of act 2 I see the dalish and templars aruging about the mage with the dreams problems(forgot his name). I asked what was going on and the dalish said they burned and tortured one of the dalish to get information on him. I was like WUT and then I asked the templar you tortured and killed a dalish for that? The templar showed no remorse over it and just went like so what  he is just an elf? My inner dalish unsleahed it self and went BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD all over em( A40k lover will understand that line). Anyway I was planning to side with the templars for the first time but after that I will never side with them EVER. I understand that mages have to be schooled but its not suprising that we have alot of blood mages running about with people like that templar watching them.

Off topic: You sir have won the crown of awesome

[TobiTobsen]

The Baconer wrote...

Kartikeya wrote...

I'm still not seeing why every mage becoming a blood mage (which isn't accurate, but I've made this argument enough in the past day that I don't want to repeat it yet again), is an excuse to torture a young elf who is not a mage. He's not a mage. He's not the mage they're looking for. He's not a mage at all. Seeing as they don't catch Feynriel, do we even know if he even had the information they were looking for? They grabbed some guy who might stand a chance at knowing what they want to know, and they end up killing him in agonizing fashion for, well...uh. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time, it seems. Because they couldn't find the person they were actually after.

Even if you could make the argument that torturing mages to death is okay in Kirkwall (and I would argue most people in Kirkwall would go 'um, no it's not' including a lot of templars), I can't see why Kirkwall would be hunky dory with doing it to someone who isn't even a mage, just because you're looking for a mage. They may not care very much because, hey, it's just some Dalish kid, but they probably aren't going to think it's awesome. Because, you know, the implication is the Templars can come do that to you next, if they think you might know something about escaped apostates.

Indeed, and I would even say their conduct compromises the entire purpose of their order; protecting the common folk from magic.

Remember: The elves are not human. They are not common folks, just subhuman freaks that dare to interfere in human & templar affairs.

Thats at least my interpretation of the templars attitude. And even if the elves would count as common folks... it's not as if the Kirkwall templars would care much about their duty to the people. They are much more concerned about worldly power and tranquilizing every mage that looks funny

[ThePhoenixKing]

Talladarr wrote...

I'm sorry, but I'm an elf lover. I LOATHE the Templars for this and many of the tortures they submit mages to. I wouldn't be surprised if the female mages were sexually abused in the circle...

I'm not a huge fan of the Dalish, in fact, with a few exceptions (Lanaya, Merrill, Ariane, a few others) they ARE all huge pricks, but even so, I always take out the Templars at this point. Once they resort to torture, they become irredeemable. Period.

[TEWR]

necro!


And yes, this always pisses me off about Kirkwall's Templars. The woman's words were, and I quote:

"I don't give one wit about these knife-ears!"

And they're supposed to be protecting people and be friends to the populus, yet they'll torture a Dalish child.

It's even worse when you find out that the Chantry priests and Templars came by to the elves trying to convert them in Act 3, and when the Dalish refused they made poorly veiled threats.

The Templars of Kirkwall can burn in the deepest blazes of the Underworld (most anyway. There are some good Templars)

[ReiSilver]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

necro!


And yes, this always pisses me off about Kirkwall's Templars. The woman's words were, and I quote:

"I don't give one wit about these knife-ears!"

And they're supposed to be protecting people and be friends to the populus, yet they'll torture a Dalish child.

It's even worse when you find out that the Chantry priests and Templars came by to the elves trying to convert them in Act 3, and when the Dalish refused they made poorly veiled threats.

The Templars of Kirkwall can burn in the deepest blazes of the Underworld (most anyway. There are some good Templars)

Urrhhh I hate those guys so much. On my two playthroughs I convince them to leave though, mainly because my Hawkes don't want more templars coming to find out what happened to the other lot. It irks me that a lot of people don't notice that a lot of the Templars in Kirkwall are likely abusing their power because you only get the one quest with Alrick focusing on it, rather then crazy mages which turn up in 30%-40% of the quests.

You get to talk to 'reasonable' templars like Cullen but not nearly as many perminant mage NPCs and people forget they exist because most of them show up then have the sense to get out of dodge.

The whole 'convert or die' thing with the Dalish made Sebastian's conversation with Merrill starting with "Have you heard the Chant of Light?" make me want to punch him in the face. Seriously dude, leave her alone. *frowny face*

[TEWR]

I have to admit, Sebastian earned some points in my book for not trying to forcibly convert her and saying that perhaps both of their religions were the same, if not just incredibly similar. At least he respected her religion.

It went along with my notion that all religions are the same, but they just have different aspects.

Also, I'm glad Merrill pointed out some of the holes in the Chant and the flaws in the Chantry's methods. Smart girl.

[ThePhoenixKing]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I have to admit, Sebastian earned some points in my book for not trying to forcibly convert her and saying that perhaps both of their religions were the same, if not just incredibly similar. At least he respected her religion.

It went along with my notion that all religions are the same, but they just have different aspects.

Also, I'm glad Merrill pointed out some of the holes in the Chant and the flaws in the Chantry's methods. Smart girl.

Absolutely. It's to the credit of the writers that they didn't make Sebastian a complete Andraste-thumper, instead presenting him as a much more respectful figure who doesn't run around endlessly prostelyzing people. I think he has this one conversation with Isabela in which he says that preaching never works, and that the only effective way he can bring people into the Chantry is to set a good example. It's a reasonable mature attitude, and I'm glad they took it with him.

[Ezohiguma]

Nothing wrong with it. It was an elf. It was an inferiour race. They are not humans. There are no innocent elven children. They are elves. Thus they can't be innocent. Apart from that, innocence proves nothing. Nobody is truly innocent anyway. There are merely different levels of guilt. Not to mention that... There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty.

Well, it doesn't help that I hate elves in general. With passion. If there was a way in DA:O or DA2 to completely wipe out the entire elven population, I would definitely do so. I simply dislike these pointy eared blighters, no matter the franchise. I think I need to kill me some eldar now. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!

Also

thompsonaf wrote...

Modifié par Ezohiguma, 22 juillet 2011 - 07:15 .

[LadyVaJedi]

Why do you dislike elves so much for? I take it then that you didn't like them in LOTR series and I am guessing your not fond of Spock either even though he is a Vulcan.